CSR-Elite - VERY coggy feel

thechosenwonton

thechosenwonton

465
actionjeans
Had my wheel for less than a year, hopefully someone else has had this problem and can offer a solution other than sending it in. I turn the wheel without FFB, its smooth - with any kind of resistance, it "cogs", and badly.

Already emailed fanatec support, we'll see what they have to say; hopefully its a quick fix.
 
Sure. Like you can feel very strong each individual 'COG' in the belt. Does not happen when the FFB is off. Belts seem to be tight, I didn't do any internal inspection for fear of voiding warranty, but the belts do have notches i.e. cogs in them, and each are noticeable when turning the wheel with FFB on.
 
Oh yes I see what you mean as I get that too. It makes a loud sound also. I hate when it happens because it feels like I'm breaking the wheel. It's very unnatural and it's happening more and more. Let me know what Fanatec says if you end up contacting them.
 
Already contacted them, I'll let you know what they say. It is NOT specific to any game though - happens with any power to the FFB motors. My guess is one of them burnt out. Not happy at all at almost $800 purchase price. Even if they fix it, I seriously doubt I'll buy another fanatec wheel, given that my $100 Logitech GT still works flawlessly.
 
One of your FFB motors is burned out. More specifically the commutator and/or brushes are shot. This issue seems to be turning up quite a bit :( Luckily they will probably just replace your wheel. :)

Best of luck.
 
I am having same problem with my CSR Elite. Belts are tight. New 750 firmware didnt help regarding that very coggy feeling. Well, it seems one motor is burnt.

(I would like too know too what support said)
 
Just to explain the "cog" feeling...

Brushed motors, like these, have a little thing inside that the brushes run against that energizes the coils on the motor as it rotates such that it makes it turn. It's basically what makes a brushed motor "work." The "cog" you feel is the motor only energizing at certain points during it's rotation. What you end up with is resistance from both motors at certain points and resistance from one motor at certain points. You will only feel these when the wheel is bound to a console or PC. Just turning it on isn't enough. It has to be resisting your movement of it.

I hope that helps explain it some.
 
When i got my CSR Elite i mostly played rfactor2. FFB is amazing in rfactor2 and my CSR Elite was and still is amazing at tracks like spa or monaco where you get alot FFB detail due to rough road. At these tracks the coggy feeling isnt easily noticeable, because the motors / FFB are always in action due to the detail and roughness of the road.

But i can also remember when i got my CSR Elite that the FFB was also smooth on not rough/detailed roads. (Like in GT5 and rfactor1 or some tracks in rfactor2).

This isnt the case now anymore. Wth a constant force on the FFB motors the coggy feeling is very present now. I could notice it with FF on the wheel to 100% and being in the steering lock range.
But now i even feel it alot even when FF is set to 10% and being in the steering lock range.

Theres something very wrong now.
 
mrbasher
One of your FFB motors is burned out. More specifically the commutator and/or brushes are shot. This issue seems to be turning up quite a bit :( Luckily they will probably just replace your wheel. :)

Best of luck.
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Ok cool, that is kinda what I figured. I emailed them a video of the issue today, very obvious visually if not audibly. I'll let you know how it turns out - seems odd though; I mean I've never ran it without the fan enabled (most wheels don't even have a fan) and the wheel seems well ventilated and has a large heat sink - maybe there are air flow issues that haven't been sorted?

Who knows, but I'll keep this updated to let you know. Stuff breaks, I realize that, its how the company handles the support that will keep or lose customers. They were quick to respond to my initial email though, so that bodes well.

Cheers,

Chosen
 
mrbasher
Just to explain the "cog" feeling...

Brushed motors, like these, have a little thing inside that the brushes run against that energizes the coils on the motor as it rotates such that it makes it turn. It's basically what makes a brushed motor "work." The "cog" you feel is the motor only energizing at certain points during it's rotation. What you end up with is resistance from both motors at certain points and resistance from one motor at certain points. You will only feel these when the wheel is bound to a console or PC. Just turning it on isn't enough. It has to be resisting your movement of it.

I hope that helps explain it some.
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Yep makes total sense. Also explains why the pull of the FFB is still strong, but too jerky to be usable anymore; one or both motors have a dead zone in them and you can clearly feel and see it when using the wheel.
 
thechosenwonton
I mean I've never ran it without the fan enabled (most wheels don't even have a fan) and the wheel seems well ventilated and has a large heat sink - maybe there are air flow issues that haven't been sorted?
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i've only ran it with fans enabled and i have same issue.

EDIT: OK, you didnt either.
 
The issue could be from overheating, but it is unlikely.

If you were to take the back of the wheel off so you could look inside, then turned on the wheel, bound it to a PC and then turned the wheel. While looking inside the motor cans, you would see BOTH motors sparking. (on a wheel that either will fail or has failed) This is typically due to issues with the commutator or how the brushes are contacting it. It's very typical on cheap motors.

I'm not going to get into the how and why of it here, but this was not an issue on the single motor wheels. (or it was much more rare) The first place I'd look, if I were Fanatec and I am not, would be the way in which the motors are being driven. That's all I will say on the subject.

I have taken apart one of these wheels to diagnose the issue and observed all of the above first hand. I even placed each the motors on an oscilloscope to analyze their output as they were rotated at a constant speed.

Good luck and sorry about your troubles. :(
 
I can also feel the cogs with my Turbo S wheel if I turn it slowly and FFB is on. That is normal for my wheel at least. That is just what beltdrive in my wheel feels like.

Burned motor would increase resistance of turning and also of course considerably lower the FFB.
 
Raitziger
I can also feel the cogs with my Turbo S wheel if I turn it slowly and FFB is on. That is normal for my wheel at least. That is just what beltdrive in my wheel feels like.

Burned motor would increase resistance of turning and also of course considerably lower the FFB.
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I have a PWTS and I know the feeling you speak of and it's normal for the PWTS as the belts are entirely different. It's also what makes the "whirring" sound when turned quickly. However, this "cog" feeling is entirely different. It's quite pronounced actually as you turn the wheel. Another dead giveaway is if you very slowly turn the wheel, one of the motors will emit a sort of whine or screech, a bit like the sound of a person moving around in a rubber raft. I don't have a better description lol!
 
mrbasher
Another dead giveaway is if you very slowly turn the wheel, one of the motors will emit a sort of whine or screech, a bit like the sound of a person moving around in a rubber raft. I don't have a better description lol!
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This is normal for DC motor. I call it collector whine. I think it can heard if motor turns into a position where collector is shifting from one pole to another. I think smell is the best indicator of something burning. Brushes touching collector plates are however part in electric motor which do not last as long as rest and must be replaced time to time to keep performance up.

AC motor (or brushless dc motor for RC-model people) would solve this because there are no brushes in permanent magnet motor or normal induction motor.
 
mrbasher
While looking inside the motor cans, you would see BOTH motors sparking. (on a wheel that either will fail or has failed) This is typically due to issues with the commutator or how the brushes are contacting it. It's very typical on cheap motors.
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I opened the wheel to see if there is something obviously wrong, didnt find anything. But i noticed that both motors were sparking.
 
Yep, Fanatec support confirmed it after I sent them a video, I'll be getting a new wheel - just filled out the RMA form so we'll see what the turnaround time will be.
 
vittorio,

There's only one simple solution and that is to submit a ticket to Fanatec and get a replacement. Sorry.
 
Yes i know, i need a replacement. Thx for your informations. But i wonder what is the cause and will that happen again soon? Is it a hardware motor driver problem, and if so, is it fixed by a replacement unit? Is it a software motor driver problem, if so is it fixed by FW 750? I got a bad motor and i wont have problems anymore after replacement? Probably i wont get an answer (soon).
 
mrbasher
The issue could be from overheating, but it is unlikely.

If you were to take the back of the wheel off so you could look inside, then turned on the wheel, bound it to a PC and then turned the wheel. While looking inside the motor cans, you would see BOTH motors sparking. (on a wheel that either will fail or has failed) This is typically due to issues with the commutator or how the brushes are contacting it. It's very typical on cheap motors.

I'm not going to get into the how and why of it here, but this was not an issue on the single motor wheels. (or it was much more rare) The first place I'd look, if I were Fanatec and I am not, would be the way in which the motors are being driven. That's all I will say on the subject.

I have taken apart one of these wheels to diagnose the issue and observed all of the above first hand. I even placed each the motors on an oscilloscope to analyze their output as they were rotated at a constant speed.

Good luck and sorry about your troubles. :(
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Although this may not be a factor to CSR-E but with the CSW there's the possibility of the motor being pushed hard due to the weight of the GT rim. The weight itself may not present much a problem but the fact that not only does it rotate but there's also added momentum and load from both the FF and the user. Another compounding problem might also be that some users tend to increase the FF value to counter the wheel's inherent mass. This would just add further friction to the motor(s).

It's just an assumption but if I were using a CSW and the GT rim, I'd be wary of too strong of a FF.
 
Well, good news - RMA process has been fairly painless, and my replacement wheel is being shipped today, so good on you Fanatec. The one thing I can think that might solve this problem in the future is if you're going to be away from your wheel and not using it, turn it off - there have been times where I got a phone call or had to step away in the middle of a race, and I'm wondering if the motors being on and stopped in one position could cause this problem much quicker than you'd normally see. Being the wheel centers in the same position every single time, there are spots on the motors that will get more contact time, and therefore heat and wear.

Also, hoping that the new wheel I get has possibly had this issue resolved; it would be a hop, skip and a jump to replace the motors with brushless units, and I can't imagine the price difference would be so great that it would be cheaper to RMA wheels than to update the design. I run at full FFB all the time (which I should be able to, obviously), so that also is probably a factor in having this last about 5 months with primarily weekend use only.

Mr. Basher seems to know quite a bit about this issue so he might weigh in confirm if I'm way off base, or if this might be a "maintenance aspect" of the CSR-E; I think I understand the issue, so logically it makes sense, but DC motors is not my wheelhouse of expertise (its the ladies). <--kidding
 
thechosenwonton
Well, good news - RMA process has been fairly painless, and my replacement wheel is being shipped today, so good on you Fanatec. The one thing I can think that might solve this problem in the future is if you're going to be away from your wheel and not using it, turn it off - there have been times where I got a phone call or had to step away in the middle of a race, and I'm wondering if the motors being on and stopped in one position could cause this problem much quicker than you'd normally see. Being the wheel centers in the same position every single time, there are spots on the motors that will get more contact time, and therefore heat and wear.

Also, hoping that the new wheel I get has possibly had this issue resolved; it would be a hop, skip and a jump to replace the motors with brushless units, and I can't imagine the price difference would be so great that it would be cheaper to RMA wheels than to update the design. I run at full FFB all the time (which I should be able to, obviously), so that also is probably a factor in having this last about 5 months with primarily weekend use only.

Mr. Basher seems to know quite a bit about this issue so he might weigh in confirm if I'm way off base, or if this might be a "maintenance aspect" of the CSR-E; I think I understand the issue, so logically it makes sense, but DC motors is not my wheelhouse of expertise (its the ladies). <--kidding
Click to expand...

Ladies.... :D oh wait...

You may not be too far off base here actually, though in theory leaving the wheel like that shouldn't hurt anything. At rest there is a voltage being applied to both motors while bound such that they both resist movement. I believe it's the "brake" mode on most motor controller chips. This voltage would be applied to both motors. It's possible I suppose that having them like this for extended periods, due to them being coupled together physically via the belt, that it may cause some ill effects. Depending on where each motor is in it's rotation relative to the other motor, this might create a situation in which the motors are actually fighting each other.

It could also be due to the motors being driven the the wrong configuration, series or parallel, etc.

I truly don't think it's from them getting "hot." I think it's a combination of things, one of which is the reality that these are $2 motors being used in a several hundred dollar wheel. I'll probably get flamed for that, but it's the truth and it cannot be denied. That being said, most of the wheels out there use similar motors from companies like Johnson, etc. They burn out as well sometimes. I guess I would just expect the motors used to be a little higher quality.
 
Oh, and I'm not an expert... I just have experience with such things. ;) Beyond RC cars and playing with motors.
 
thechosenwonton
Well, good news - RMA process has been fairly painless, and my replacement wheel is being shipped today, so good on you Fanatec. The one thing I can think that might solve this problem in the future is if you're going to be away from your wheel and not using it, turn it off - there have been times where I got a phone call or had to step away in the middle of a race, and I'm wondering if the motors being on and stopped in one position could cause this problem much quicker than you'd normally see. Being the wheel centers in the same position every single time, there are spots on the motors that will get more contact time, and therefore heat and wear.

Also, hoping that the new wheel I get has possibly had this issue resolved; it would be a hop, skip and a jump to replace the motors with brushless units, and I can't imagine the price difference would be so great that it would be cheaper to RMA wheels than to update the design. I run at full FFB all the time (which I should be able to, obviously), so that also is probably a factor in having this last about 5 months with primarily weekend use only.

Mr. Basher seems to know quite a bit about this issue so he might weigh in confirm if I'm way off base, or if this might be a "maintenance aspect" of the CSR-E; I think I understand the issue, so logically it makes sense, but DC motors is not my wheelhouse of expertise (its the ladies). <--kidding
Click to expand...

I had to send my CSW back to repairs because it is hard to explain and make a video to show the problem. I cant be sure it is the same problem but i was not able to use the wheel anymore because something similar happened to my CSW.

Shame it takes so long but when you live far and communication takes time i havent used wheel for 3 weeks and probably this all will take over 4 weeks total when i havent done any race.
 
mrbasher
Ladies.... :D oh wait...

You may not be too far off base here actually, though in theory leaving the wheel like that shouldn't hurt anything. At rest there is a voltage being applied to both motors while bound such that they both resist movement. I believe it's the "brake" mode on most motor controller chips. This voltage would be applied to both motors. It's possible I suppose that having them like this for extended periods, due to them being coupled together physically via the belt, that it may cause some ill effects. Depending on where each motor is in it's rotation relative to the other motor, this might create a situation in which the motors are actually fighting each other.

It could also be due to the motors being driven the the wrong configuration, series or parallel, etc.

I truly don't think it's from them getting "hot." I think it's a combination of things, one of which is the reality that these are $2 motors being used in a several hundred dollar wheel. I'll probably get flamed for that, but it's the truth and it cannot be denied. That being said, most of the wheels out there use similar motors from companies like Johnson, etc. They burn out as well sometimes. I guess I would just expect the motors used to be a little higher quality.
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Yeah I don't understand the logic in using super cheap motors in a base this nice; the base MUST be where most of the cost comes from, so saving $20 in construction and putting in crappy motors makes absolutely no sense to me. They've already lost a ton of profit by having to send me a new wheel, and reimbursing me for shipping so its a head scratcher. It's not like $530 is cheap for what is essentially a video game controller.

I'm happy with the wheels performance in Forza 4, floored with it actually but... yeah it's gotta last a couple of years minimum, especially since I'm not running 24 hour races every weekend, and I seldom have a chance to run during the week. If I had an alternative wheel to use for Forza 4, I'd probably be looking around but Fanatec is the only game in town for a good sim experience.

Hopefully, the new wheel they've addressed some of the production issues and I'll put this whole thing behind me.
 
mrbasher
.....
I truly don't think it's from them getting "hot." I think it's a combination of things, one of which is the reality that these are $2 motors being used in a several hundred dollar wheel. I'll probably get flamed for that, but it's the truth and it cannot be denied. That being said, most of the wheels out there use similar motors from companies like Johnson, etc. They burn out as well sometimes. I guess I would just expect the motors used to be a little higher quality.
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I'm assuming the $2 you're quoting is for quantity purchase of the RS550 motor and not the retail price because if I were to order one online, it would cost upward of $8. It is a pretty low price although I'm sure once you've broken down the cost of all the different parts that make the whole CSW (base) or the CSR-E including the cost for assembly, I'm sure the $16 spent on the two motors would not seem completely out of place.

With that said, the Buehler motor used in the T500RS- a customize version of the 1.13.044.XXX with Hall encoder- sells (at retail) for a lot more and account for around 20% of the T500RS' price. Seems rather high at &#8364; 95.20 (around $120) but here's the photo the T500RS's motor:

7902781956_8a07f33178_o.jpg


And here's the link to a German website that sells the variant (1.13.044.236 ) with no encoder: http://tiny.cc/sacxjw

However, the T500RS unlike the CSR-E/CSW is a much simpler design. No worm drive and dual motor system and of course, all (well, mostly) plastic construction.
 
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It's hard to say the exact price of the motor... It's model is RS-555PH-22130 and the double shaft version is difficult to find. However, here is an example of the same motor, though probably with different windings and single ended: http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/DCM-330/3-20-VDC-MOTOR-MABUCHI/1.html $3.50 each

When we speak of the quantities involved in mass production of these wheels and the fact that they are coming from China, and that they are the same stock used in previous Fanatec wheels, we could be looking at 20k plus motors or more that have been purchased... It's very unlikely that the cost in those quantities is anywhere near $2.

This being said, I understand first hand the cost of production and the need for profit margins, etc. I'm simply stating that a more appropriate motor could have been used.
 

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