We are very hard on PoDi

Nous sommes trop dur avec Polyphony Digital (PoDi).

Certaines critiques sont tout à fait légitime mais il faut se mettre à leur place, comprendre comment ils travaillent et les obstacles auxquels ils ont rencontré.

Gran Turismo 5, c'est tout simplement un mauvais virage qu'a pris PoDi. Je suis sûr et certain que Gran Turismo 6 remettra la série dans le droit chemin, je ne sais pas pourquoi mais j'ai entièrement confiance.

Je voudrais avant tout expliquer le fonctionnement de PoDi.

Ils sont 110 environ (http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/) et ne font pas de sous traitance, ce qui est pour moi un avantage sur la qualité. Pour comparer, Turn 10 sont au moins 300 et font de la sous traitance en Asie et Rockstar Games (je ne vais pas m'attarder dessus -, plus de 1000 puisqu'il comporte plusieurs studios.

Je trouve cela important de préciser parce qu'au final, ça influt sur le résultat.

Avant toute chose, croire que Sony a des ressources illimités, est une grosse erreur sinon, il n'aurait pas mis The Last Guardian en suspens. Si PoDi pouvait embauché, Kaz le fera mais ce n'est pas le cas.

Je disais donc que c'est très important de connaitre l'effectif et le fonctionnement du studio. Un exemple : les voitures : standard et premium.

Il y en a qui critiquent la naissance de ces 2 catégories. Mais il est humainement impossible de modéliser 1200 voitures en qualité premium.

A l'époque de la PS2 et encore mieux de la PS1, il n'y avait pas de vue cockpit, et le niveau des détails était beaucoup moins important, il suffisait alors de prendre un toy car (comme on a pu le voir sur les dernières photos) et de modéliser à partir de ce modèle.

Aujourd'hui ça ne fonctionne plus du tout pareil et on voit bien les développeurs entrain de prendre des photos sous n'importe quel angle. Non seulement, il faut modéliser ou remodéliser l'extérieur dans un niveau de détail jamais vu mais aussi l'intérieur. Et quand je dis l'intérieur ce n'est pas seulement le tableau de bord comme chez la concurrence, c'est aussi tout le reste, les chaises et l'arrière et le tout là aussi dans les moindres de détails.

"Mais quel intérêt ? C'est une perte de temps".

Et bien je ne suis pas d'accord. C'est en plus nécessaire pour les prochaines générations. PoDi utilisent le système de tesselation, une 1ère pour une PS3 !
Pour être honnête, je ne pensais pas que cela aurait été possible. Une des preuve que PoDi pousse les limites de la PS3.

"Pourquoi ne pas supprimer les standard ?"

Il ne faut pas penser qu'à vous. Vous n'êtes finalement qu'une faible majorité à vouloir supprimer ces modèles (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=282677) et c'est vraiment chouette de vouloir garder cet aspect encyclopédique.

Et c'est un exemple parmi tant d'autres. Ca vaut aussi pour les circuits, les sons, etc. D'ailleurs à propos des sons.

Le son. Il y a déjà eu des débats. Le problème est qu'ils sont trop compressés, trop propre à cause de la RAM que la PS3 possède. Sinon, ils sont plutôt juste et contrairement à la concurrence, PoDi capture sur plusieurs rendu (cockpit, pare choc, etc.). Comme ils l'ont dit, le problème vient de la programmation.
Ils y arriveront via patch mais ils pourront vraiment s'éclater sur PS4 avec 8 Go de GDDR5. Très important de savoir que le sonore prend beaucoup de ressources.

Aussi, c'est une grosse erreur de comparer le rendu youtube d'une voiture réelle à une voiture dans un jeu. Il y a plein de paramètres à prendre en compte.

La PS3 comporte une architecture complexe c'est un fait. Contrairement à ce que certains pensent, Kaz ne s'en ai jamais plaint, il a tout simplement dit la vérité. Mais aujourd'hui, PoDi ont compris et ont su exploiter la console dans la limite.

- 12% d'augmentation sur la résolution : 1440x1080p
- meilleur éclairage (personnellement, je n'ai pas mieux sur cette génération, c'est tout simplement fantastique, très "next-gen").
- suppresion des ombres pixellisés
- fumée propre
- plus d'animations sur la piste
- disparition du tearing
- textures un peu plus fine à certains endroits
- AA au top
- Etc.

Les seuls problèmes à l'heure actuelle : scintillements (=/= aliasings) et baisse de framerate quand l'écran est chargé. Attendons tout de même la version finale pour le framerate.

Est-ce que cela fait un jeu poussif techniquement ? Non, certainement pas.
The Last of Us a également des baisse de framerate (30-20 fps), des scintillements, ombres pixellisé, pop in, etc. Tout simplement, la PS3 est à sa limite.

Franchement, certains ne réalisent le boulot de PoDi, c'est tout simplement fantastique avec si "peu" d'effectif et de budget. On s'insurge contre des patchs mais quel jeu n'en a pas ? The Last Of Us en a eu (et aucun n'a corrigé les bugs en mode solo), même le 1er jour !

D'ailleurs, à quoi servirait-il de repousser Gran Turismo 6 ? Il y aura toujours des patch et avec la sortie de la PS4, il ne faut surtout pas le faire. Qu'est-ce que ça veut dire un jeu fini ? Il y a eu des réunions chez PoDi pour le contenu final, ils n'ont pas retiré du contenu au pif, il ne faut pas s'inquiéter pour les joueurs sans internet !

Un jeu fini avec PoDi comme vous l'entendez, vous pouvez toujours attendre....

Ne vous inquiètez pas, si c'était possible de faire des patchs à l'époque des PS1, PS2, PoDi en aurait fait. Tout simplement, aujourd'hui, avec internet, le coût de développement onéreux, le processus a changé. Il faut s'y faire.

Et encore. On est pas chez Forza 5 où une partie du contenu doit être téléchager ou sans quoi, vous ne pourrez pas finir le jeu. D'ailleurs c'est rigolo de voir certains dire que Turn10 avance tandis que PoDi est lent, n'innove pas ou je ne sais quoi.

Depuis GT4, il y a eu quoi ? Cycle jour/nuit, météo dynamique, mode online, dégâts physique et mécanique, moteur physique revu, Gestion des pneumatique et télémétrie bien plus poussée, d'autres descliplines comme le Nascar, Kart, WRC et FIA GT3, éditeur de tracés, etc.

S'il y a bien un qui propose des nouveautés, qui avance, c'est bien PoDi.

Nous sommes des passionnés, on en veut toujours plus, ce qui est tout à fait normal mais il faut aussi garder les pieds sur terre.

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We are too hard on Polyphony Digital (PD).

Some critiques are quite legitimate, but they must be put in their place; how they work and the obstacles they met .

Gran Turismo 5, it's just taken a bad turn from PD . I am certain that Gran Turismo 6 will present the series in the right way, I do not know why but I have full confidence.

I would first like to explain how Podi works.

They are about 110 employees ( http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/ ) and do not do sub-contracting, which is an advantage for me on quality. To compare, Turn 10 are at least 300 and make subcontracting in Asia and Rockstar Games (I will not dwell on it - more than 1,000 since it comprises several studios.)

I find it important to note because in the end, it influences the result.

Above all, believe that Sony has unlimited resources, is a big mistake if he would not have put The Last Guardian outstanding. If PD was hired, Kaz will do but this is not the case .

I was saying that it is very important to know the size and operation of the studio. An example: cars: standard and premium.

There are critics of the birth of these two categories. But it is humanly impossible to model 1200 cars in premium quality.

At the time of the PS2 and even moreso the PS1, there was no cockpit view, and the level of detail was much smaller, so it was enough to make a toy car (as we have seen recent photos) and model from this model.

Today it no longer works at all the same and we can see the developers in the process of taking pictures under any angle. Not only is it necessary to model or remodel outside in a level of detail never seen but also inside. And when I say inside this is not just dashboard as in competition, but also everything else, chairs and rear and all again in every detail.

" But what interest It is a waste of time."

Well I do not agree. It is increasingly necessary for future generations . PD tessellation using the system, a first for a PS3 !
To be honest, I did not think it would have been possible. One proof that PD pushes the limits of the PS3.

"Why not remove the standard cars?"

You who think this way are a small majority ( https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=282677 ) and it's really nice to want to keep this encyclopedic look.

And this is just one example of many. It also applies to circuits , sound, etc. . Besides about sounds.

Sound. There has been some debate . The problem is they are too compressed, too clean because of the RAM that the PS3 has. Otherwise, they are pretty fair and unlike the competition, Podi capture several renderings ( cockpit, bumper , etc. . ) . As they say, the problem of programming.
They arrive via patch but they can really have fun on PS4 with 8 GB of GDDR5. Very important to know that the sound takes a lot of resources.

Also, this is a big mistake to compare the rendering of a real youtube car in a car in a game. There are lots of parameters to take into account.

The PS3 has a complex architecture that is a fact . Contrary to what some believe, Kaz has never complained, he just told the truth. But today, PD understood and were able to exploit the console to the limit .

- 12 % increase on the resolution: 1440x1080p
- Better lighting (I personally did no better on this generation is simply fantastic, very "next-gen ").
- Suppresion shadows pixelated
- Clean smoke
- More animations on the track
- Disappearance of tearing
- A little thinner in some places textures
- AA top
- Etc .

The only problem at the moment : flicker ( = / = aliasings ) and lower framerate when the screen is loaded. Still expect the final version to improve the framerate.

Is this is a technically winded game? No, certainly not.
The Last of Us also has lower framerate ( 30-20 fps ) , glitters, pixelated shadows , pop in, etc. . Simply put, the PS3 is the limit.

Frankly, some do not realize the job PD is just fantastic with so " little" staff and budget. We rebelled against patches but what game does not? The Last Of Us has had (and has no fixed bugs in single player mode), even the first day!

Besides, what would be the push of Gran Turismo 6? There will always be a patch and with the release of the PS4, it is important not to do so. What does that mean for a finished game? There were meetings with PD for the final content, they have not removed the content at random, do not worry for players without internet!

A finished with PD as you hear the game, you can always wait ....

Do not worry , if it was possible to make patches at the time of PS1 , PS2, Podi would. Just today, with the internet, the cost of expensive development process has changed. This is to be done.

And again. It is not in Forza 5 as part of the content should be download the or otherwise, you can not finish the game the way it's fun to see some of that Turn10 advance while PD is slow, does not innovate or whatever.

Since GT4 , there has been what? Day / night cycle, dynamic weather, online mode, physical and mechanical damage, revised physics engine, air management and more advanced telemetry, other disciplines like Nascar Kart WRC and FIA GT3 editor layouts, etc..

If there is indeed a new offering that advanced, it will come from PD.

We are passionate, we always want more, which is quite normal but we must also keep our feet on the ground.

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amar212

Thank you for this, but please present us with some context?

Have you conducted an interview with Kazunori Yamauchi? If yes, where and when, thank you for the details 👍

Also, if I understand well, the sound has always been problematic because of the RAM? Good, then I was right for the whole time and it is important piece of the puzzle. Thank you once more for getting this clarification.

So, to sum this up:

- PD is deservingly proud for managing to implement dynamic tesselation on PS3
- Youtube sounds are in fact different from actual life-sounds
- Sound processing takes lots of RAM from PS3 (for those who don't know, PS3 does not have separate sound-processor, it is the Cell GPU that does almost everything, from graphics to audio and it is pretty much choked when doing 7.1 surround for instance, op.a.) so sounds have to be compressed
- PS4 will offer much more flexibility in the sounds area
- Players without internet should not worry about "Day 1 patch" - they will get all content
- 12 % increase of the resolution compared to GT5, GT6 will be 1440x1080p
- Better lighting
- Suppression of pixelated shadows (alpha maps)
- Clean smoke
- More animations on the track
- No tearing
- Refined textures
- Top Anti-aliasing

Good questions, even better answers, thank you for this.

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Zlork

My friend visited PoDi after TGS 2010. He could provide some answers on how PoDi work.

Yes, sound has always been problematic because of the RAM, I confirm.

And, I would like to clarify about day one patch : in the future, there will probably new things to come via patches, I especially wanted to say that players without internet will have content (new physic, 1200+ cars, 37 tracks, customization, game mode, etc). They will a "finished game", they will not same feeling as when GT5 is release 👍

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amar212

thank you for this, but please present us with some context?

Have you conducted an interview with kazunori yamauchi? If yes, where and when, thank you for the details 👍

Also, if i understand well, the sound has always been problematic because of the ram? Good, then i was right for the whole time and it is important piece of the puzzle. Thank you once more for getting this clarification.

So, to sum this up:

- pd is deservingly proud for managing to implement dynamic tesselation on ps3
- youtube sounds are in fact different from actual life-sounds
- sound processing takes lots of ram from ps3 (for those who don't know, ps3 does not have separate sound-processor, it is the cell gpu that does almost everything, from graphics to audio and it is pretty much choked when doing 7.1 surround for instance, op.a.) so sounds have to be compressed
- ps4 will offer much more flexibility in the sounds area
- players without internet should not worry about "day 1 patch" - they will get all content
- 12 % increase of the resolution compared to gt5, gt6 will be 1440x1080p
- better lighting
- suppression of pixelated shadows (alpha maps)
- clean smoke
- more animations on the track
- no tearing
- refined textures
- top anti-aliasing

good questions, even better answers, thank you for this.

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Cosbuster

If anything, people should be harsher to them and not just in forum posts that don't do much but actual sales to maybe get the message across. There's just no excuse for releasing unfinished products like GT5 or the "pay for a beta and we might update it later" they seem to be going for GT6 with the amount of sales they are making and the amount of time they take.

"But it's a small team". Well, either expand it to have a chance to come close to your goals or aim lower. You can't both keep a small team and do all the stuff you want to as it has become evident. Going all over the place with unfinished features and taking ages while still under-delivering isn't really helping the final product. Sometimes less is more, much more.

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Griffith500

Ultimately, that's their decision to make. If you think the result is unsatisfactory, you have your own decisions to make. Some people like the feel of a product made a certain way, I doubt that games are any different.

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Cosbuster

Well, of course it's their decision although I can't help but feel that very often it's hype and ignorance about the product rather than actually making a proper decision.

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Griffith500

That would still constitute your decision, to breathe the hype or skirt around it. Consumerism means something very different on either side of the transaction

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Chippy569

I've translated it for you:
We are too hard on Polyphony Digital (PD).

Some critiques are quite legitimate, but they must be put in their place; how they work and the obstacles they met .

Gran Turismo 5, it's just taken a bad turn from PD . I am certain that Gran Turismo 6 will present the series in the right way, I do not know why but I have full confidence.

I would first like to explain how Podi works.

They are about 110 employees ( http://www.polyphony.co.jp/english/ ) and do not do sub-contracting, which is an advantage for me on quality. To compare, Turn 10 are at least 300 and make subcontracting in Asia and Rockstar Games (I will not dwell on it - more than 1,000 since it comprises several studios.)

I find it important to note because in the end, it influences the result.

Above all, believe that Sony has unlimited resources, is a big mistake if he would not have put The Last Guardian outstanding. If PD was hired, Kaz will do but this is not the case .

I was saying that it is very important to know the size and operation of the studio. An example: cars: standard and premium.

There are critics of the birth of these two categories. But it is humanly impossible to model 1200 cars in premium quality.

At the time of the PS2 and even moreso the PS1, there was no cockpit view, and the level of detail was much smaller, so it was enough to make a toy car (as we have seen recent photos) and model from this model.

Today it no longer works at all the same and we can see the developers in the process of taking pictures under any angle. Not only is it necessary to model or remodel outside in a level of detail never seen but also inside. And when I say inside this is not just dashboard as in competition, but also everything else, chairs and rear and all again in every detail.

" But what interest It is a waste of time."

Well I do not agree. It is increasingly necessary for future generations . PD tessellation using the system, a first for a PS3 !
To be honest, I did not think it would have been possible. One proof that PD pushes the limits of the PS3.

"Why not remove the standard cars?"

You who think this way are a small majority ( https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=282677 ) and it's really nice to want to keep this encyclopedic look.

And this is just one example of many. It also applies to circuits , sound, etc. . Besides about sounds.

Sound. There has been some debate . The problem is they are too compressed, too clean because of the RAM that the PS3 has. Otherwise, they are pretty fair and unlike the competition, Podi capture several renderings ( cockpit, bumper , etc. . ) . As they say, the problem of programming.
They arrive via patch but they can really have fun on PS4 with 8 GB of GDDR5. Very important to know that the sound takes a lot of resources.

Also, this is a big mistake to compare the rendering of a real youtube car in a car in a game. There are lots of parameters to take into account.

The PS3 has a complex architecture that is a fact . Contrary to what some believe, Kaz has never complained, he just told the truth. But today, PD understood and were able to exploit the console to the limit .

- 12 % increase on the resolution: 1440x1080p
- Better lighting (I personally did no better on this generation is simply fantastic, very "next-gen ").
- Suppresion shadows pixelated
- Clean smoke
- More animations on the track
- Disappearance of tearing
- A little thinner in some places textures
- AA top
- Etc .

The only problem at the moment : flicker ( = / = aliasings ) and lower framerate when the screen is loaded. Still expect the final version to improve the framerate.

Is this is a technically winded game? No, certainly not.
The Last of Us also has lower framerate ( 30-20 fps ) , glitters, pixelated shadows , pop in, etc. . Simply put, the PS3 is the limit.

Frankly, some do not realize the job PD is just fantastic with so " little" staff and budget. We rebelled against patches but what game does not? The Last Of Us has had (and has no fixed bugs in single player mode), even the first day!

Besides, what would be the push of Gran Turismo 6? There will always be a patch and with the release of the PS4, it is important not to do so. What does that mean for a finished game? There were meetings with PD for the final content, they have not removed the content at random, do not worry for players without internet!

A finished with PD as you hear the game, you can always wait ....

Do not worry , if it was possible to make patches at the time of PS1 , PS2, Podi would. Just today, with the internet, the cost of expensive development process has changed. This is to be done.

And again. It is not in Forza 5 as part of the content should be download the or otherwise, you can not finish the game the way it's fun to see some of that Turn10 advance while PD is slow, does not innovate or whatever.

Since GT4 , there has been what? Day / night cycle, dynamic weather, online mode, physical and mechanical damage, revised physics engine, air management and more advanced telemetry, other disciplines like Nascar Kart WRC and FIA GT3 editor layouts, etc..

If there is indeed a new offering that advanced, it will come from PD.

We are passionate, we always want more, which is quite normal but we must also keep our feet on the ground.

Click to expand...

amar212

Thank you for this, but please present us with some context?

Have you conducted an interview with Kazunori Yamauchi? If yes, where and when, thank you for the details 👍

Also, if I understand well, the sound has always been problematic because of the RAM? Good, then I was right for the whole time and it is important piece of the puzzle. Thank you once more for getting this clarification.

So, to sum this up:

- PD is deservingly proud for managing to implement dynamic tesselation on PS3
- Youtube sounds are in fact different from actual life-sounds
- Sound processing takes lots of RAM from PS3 (for those who don't know, PS3 does not have separate sound-processor, it is the Cell GPU that does almost everything, from graphics to audio and it is pretty much choked when doing 7.1 surround for instance, op.a.) so sounds have to be compressed
- PS4 will offer much more flexibility in the sounds area
- Players without internet should not worry about "Day 1 patch" - they will get all content
- 12 % increase of the resolution compared to GT5, GT6 will be 1440x1080p
- Better lighting
- Suppression of pixelated shadows (alpha maps)
- Clean smoke
- More animations on the track
- No tearing
- Refined textures
- Top Anti-aliasing

Good questions, even better answers, thank you for this.

Click to expand...

avens

First of all customers can and do judge what they are buying based on if they like the product or not in a quite cold way. Feelings, understanding, reasons, excuses and "being too hard on the company" just don't exist in the business and real world. A product is praised if it is objectively good, not if it is good for the circumstances.
Now, I think the GT playerbase is quite justified on being critical of PD considering they have released not one finished main title in 10 years and counting (GT5 wasn't GT6 won't be) and in some aspects they are 10 to 15 years behind, while there is none in which they beat the competition.

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avens

Secondly, the most recent interview dealt with some points: lack of content (or speed rather) and quality issues are because PD kept the team purposely small and it is the same staff from 1997.
In this genre manpower and updated knowledge matter a lot. How can PD compete with the current standard if they are understaffed and most probably under qualified, both because of a PD decision? That's not precisely praise-worthy and they created the circumstances themselves, therefore the small size team is not an acceptable justification of bad and non existent work.

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avens

Thirdly, particularly about sounds on the PS3, other games have achieved better sounding cars yet don't blame it on the console on every single interview. Other games of other genres are way more complex than this one therefore most probably more RAM demanding.

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Sound processing takes lots of RAM from PS3 (for those who don't know, PS3 does not have separate sound-processor, it is the Cell GPU that does almost everything, from graphics to audio and it is pretty much choked when doing 7.1 surround for instance, op.a.) so sounds have to be compressed

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Podi capture several renderings

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avens

As a fourth point, the OP doesn't explain all the 'broken promises' and shortcomings we saw in GT5 and now in GT6, nor justify them. Today alone there were three announced: same non-working clutch as GT5, track creator size is 4% of what was said (if not less) and the track creator itself maybe won't make it to release date.

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avens

Lastly, what the OP implies is GT7 (or a re-release of GT6) on the PS4 is going to blow our hats away, right? I've heard that line before and consider the quality and quantity standard increases every year, both in which PD is considerably behind the competition and I don't see how come they are going to overcome time if the staff is way too small and is way too outdated. And BTW in gaming there is no such a thing as future proof work.

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Samus

The RAM excuse keeps popping up again and again and still the people doing so can't answer this simple question:

If RAM is the main, underlying issue for poor sounds why do some cars sound very good? Are they accessing some magic RAM?

No, the answer is most of the sound problems stem from the samples and how they're used. If you use a V8 sound for a V12 it's never going to sound right even if you have 256GB of RAM to store the high resolution sample.

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But it is humanly impossible to model 1200 cars in premium quality.

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Frankly, some do not realize the job PD is just fantastic with so "little" staff and budget.

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Griffith500

Obviously the misattribution is a major issue, but when your sampling scheme is the same on PS3 as it was on PS1, then you're clearly compensating for something. It isn't just about individual samples, but the whole scheme.

I'm surprised to see you say that some cars sound "very good" though. I'd say some samples sound good in certain situations, but cars overall still have a lack of detail. Detail is data, aaand data need somewhere to live.

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Zlork

As for your last phrase. I'm sorry but it is an acceptable justification.
They must find compromise to satisfy a majority players. Don't be egoist, please.

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Imari

You have chosen to make a worse game than you could have.

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Zlork

Reminder : since GT4, effective went from 100+ to 150+

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