A Trackday and a worn set of tires... the answer to FF oversteer

I've just had one of the best days of my life. I suppose it's kind of silly to be thirty years old, a dyed in the wool car-nut, a reckless and irresponsibly quick driver and still NOT have done this before. As I'm about to become a father, I figured I'd take advantage of this opportunity while I still had the money to do this.

My trackday started with a 100 kilometer two-hour trip into the boondocks to the local Asian Formula 3 track, the Batangas Racing Circuit. I left home at about 6am, with my cousin in convoy. We'd both brought our sedans, after checking over everything from fluids to tires, and gave them a good shakedown on the highway. Three hours later, after a rendezvous with our car club, we were at the track. It was a damn long trip, through a lot of rough country roads, and at this point, I was thankful I hadn't switched to the Advan Neovas on the other set of rims, as I wasn't sure the large wheels and thin tires could've taken it.

To my surprise, I was wrong. We shared the track that day with a few Porsches (a 993 and a 996), two or three Evos, a mint E30 M3, a couple of MR2s, a gaggle of Miatas and a few fast Hondas, all on tires that would have your teeth rattling everytime you ran over a fag. Oh-kay then.

Was a good day, but seeing as how I was in a stock car on stock tires and a lot of my clubmates had an induction kit and exhaust good for a dyno-proven 15+hp (a big deal when your car makes less than 150 hp stock), I didn't have a chance against those guys. Not to mention the various Miatas, turbocharged front-wheel drive Lancers and some of the more exotic machinery on the track. Fine, then... I was just racing myself.

(Be patient, the GT4 part is coming up)

I drive a 2004 Ford Lynx RS. It's a re-badge of the Mazda Protege MP3. The closest you can come to it in the game is the Mazda Protege Sport 20:

I've put almost 3000 kilometers on this car in GT4, and I've been driving this one for over a year. I'm pretty familiar with it both ways, but this is going to be the first time I've pushed it as hard as possible in real-life.

Track Time

First impressions: this car feels faster through some of the slow corners of the track than I thought it would be, but 142 ponies really doesn't amount to much down the main straight. The steering is as light and precise as ever, and I hardly ever have to dial in more lock after setting up for a turn.

Coming out of turns, I reach the limit of the stock tires, as the car tries to push wide under power. Balance between oversteer and understeer is excellent, and I don't see much of either at the tire-squealing limits... hmmm... maybe I should be pushing harder. Rotation under braking is easy, as the ABS clicks in only after a bit of lock, so the car unsettles a bit, you get it rotating, then settles again as the ABS kicks on or as you let off the brakes. Even with stock power, I get tire-chirp in second gear when I get on the gas, as the car lunges forward.

Gran Turismo

With the track time still fresh in my mind, I hit the console after dinner. I get into my well-worn Protege, set the tranny to close and add ballast to get the car up to weight. I've already got N3s on it. The close-ratio tranny gives me similar top-of-gear speeds to my real-life car, and the engine, though higher revving and with 20hp more, is a bit of a slug in the game, so it's also pretty close to my specs. The tires on the Mazda look fatter than mine (not wider, just balloony), but the j-spec sheets say they're the same rim size and nearly the same profile.

I give it a go on Infineon, as the elevations and turns are similar to the BRC. I've driven this car at Infineon before, but never on N-tires.

Impressions? The steering feels the same, moderate understeer countered by well-modulated oversteer or neutralsteer under the brakes. The tires feel too grippy, though, so I downsize to N2s. I get tire squeal earlier than I do in real-life, but the edge of grip is about the same. I guess PD uses tire squeal as an indicator that you're getting close, to make up for the lack of vestibular sensation.

I double checked my impression of tire grip with a Honda Fit. One of our clubmates brought a 1.5 Fit with a manual tranny and Advan Neovas fitted instead of the stock rubber. Since I've decided that N2's feel as accurate as possible for my car, and knowing that his was almost as fast, I ghost-raced my Protege with the Fit (power upped to 130 = 115 (stock 1.5 power)+ an oil change) with a manual tranny. Understeer was more, as you'd expect, but lap times were consistently close. Theory validated. N2s and N3s perform as expected for their real-life counter parts.

Understeer seems somehow less under power than in real-life. The on-power oversteer through slow turns feels a little like the skitter you get when pushing the car through a turn on half-lock or more, but in real-life, the inside tire hops off the ground and starts to light up... getting more power, it pushes the car wide. In the game, since tires never leave the ground unless you're jumping, a front-wheel driver will always put more power through the outside tire, resulting in oversteer on smooth tracks. On tracks like the Nurburg and Costa d' Amalfi, the understeer through any corner in an FF car is more nearly correct. However, the longitudinal grip comes into question on those tracks, making the going slower than it should be.

I think this is it. The biggest reason for physics inaccuracy in GT4 is because the tires NEVER leave the ground unless jumped. This allows extreme understeer in situations you don't expect it, and oversteer in situations where it'd be almost impossible.

Remember, all impressions are subjective, but everything seems to fit.

Great write-up, I enjoyed that. 👍

Interesting read 👍 but mods will probably move it to race reports.

Very interesting, I'm glad you had fun! I did a writeup on a different forum about my 1st trip to the 'Ring (and comparison to GT4) which was my first 'track' experience. I should copy and paste that here sometime.

I've heard other people mention FWD oversteer under acceleration in GT4, but I've almost never experienced it in GT4. Just about every FWD car I've ever driven in GT4 understeers on the power - much more than my real life FWD car. I've got a few that will rotate if you lift midcorner, but in general they mostly seem to plow on the brakes and wash out under power.

Trail braking in GT4 seems very poorly modelled - it's the primary way to get a FWD car around tight corners (such as an autocross course or hairpin) in real life; yet in GT4 if you even think about trail braking, the car will not turn in until you let off.

Excellent track impressions and information, though. And no, this is not Race Reports material; he's discussing handling characteristics in some detail here.

Duke

Trail braking in GT4 seems very poorly modelled - it's the primary way to get a FWD car around tight corners (such as an autocross course or hairpin) in real life; yet in GT4 if you even think about trail braking, the car will not turn in until you let off.

Excellent track impressions and information, though. And no, this is not Race Reports material; he's discussing handling characteristics in some detail here.

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Duke, are you using a DS2 or DFP (or even DF)? I ask because I have no problem, with a DFP and DF, in trail braking. I would agree that with the DS2 its, for me, almost impossiable to do, but with the DFP, trail braking is not a problem at all.

I find you need to take care with the work rates of the front wheels still, but this would be true of real life as well.


In regard to niky's comments, its alway fun to read about someones first trip to the track, and when people find out just how different it is to driving on the road.

You never get as near (or beyond) a cars dynamic limits so often as on the track, simply because its a far safer place to do it. Most people are surprised at how hard they need to brake (did you have any tuition or just lap on your own?) or how severe understeer can be on the track.

One of the main reasons for this is often down to the width of a track (and how much you can use) when compaired to the street, it allows you to corner much faster than you even would on the road and getting it wrong by just a few MPH can result in very strong understeer.

Depending on the track, the grip levels can be quite a shock as well, the grade of tarmac used for tracks is often much better than that for the road (all down to pebble size, smaller is better for grip, but worse for drainage). The result is grip that can be quite suddenly lost and when it returns. Its one of the reasons I don't have the same issue some do with regard to couter-steering and the 'snap', the increased grip on track tarmac, can and does behave like this. GT4 gets it wrong in that similar surface grip levels are applied to all dry surfaces, the grip offered by a circuit (say Fuji or Infion) should be greater than Paris or Amalifi.

I would also agree with you in regard to the N2 and N3 tyres being the closest to 'real' tyres, and its good to see more confirmation of the tests I have done in this area.

Glad you had a good time Niky, and I hope you get a chance to do it again.

Regards

Scaff

Thanks. I agree with Duke that trailbraking feels so much different in game as compared to on track, but then, that's down to lack of "feel", and the fact that in GT4, braking often gives you full brake force (and consequently, locked wheels) so quickly, the threshold between rotation under brakes and locked brakes... and its consequent understeer, is so much smaller.

My opinion will likely change when my DFP comes (I hope it does).

As for power oversteer in FF cars, it only happens on very slow corners on mostly smooth tracks, with N and S tires. It's a funny thing, and sometimes unexpected, as it occurs at times when you've finished braking in a straight line, and don't initiate the turn until after you press on the gas. It's also likely due to the ease with which you can get full lock on the DS2 at low speed.

I was pleasantly surprised at the subtle weight shift and excellent control of my car under braking, especially as compared to my cousin's older SiR, which spun in a spot where I also overcooked my entry during a couple of laps. We were told strictly NOT to trailbrake. The spins in-session are a testimony to how much we'd paid attention to that warning!

I used to think that GT4 understeer for FFs was overdone. The rest of the car dynamics have always seemed right. That was till I pushed my car to the limits and found a lot more understeer than I was expecting. I ought to have rotated my tires to put the worn ones on the back, to encourage the rear to kick out a little. Now I think understeer is almost right. Irritating, but almost right. It's the lack of the sensation of speed and momentum that seems to make it seem so much worse than it actually is.

Still, the fact that reverse 180s in FF work , while donuts in FRs don't, indicate that it is still off by some amount.

One thing that's still wrong is the lack of tire chirp for slower cars. Shifting at redline for almost anything over 120hp almost always causes tire chirp on less than race rubber. That just doesn't happen in the game. Again, a triumph of surface adhesion (lack of tire skip) over anything else.

One thing I do know is that i'm swapping to my 17's on Advans next track day. With some of those old 323s and mitsus pushing over 200whp (GTX and Evo swaps to front wheel drive) and the Miata boys with forced induction and sticky rubbers, I'll need all the help I can get. ...and I'm not willing to compromise track durability with a turbo kit (some of the Evo swappers had severe heat problems after just one 20 minute session).

niky

I used to think that GT4 understeer for FFs was overdone. The rest of the car dynamics have always seemed right. That was till I pushed my car to the limits and found a lot more understeer than I was expecting. I ought to have rotated my tires to put the worn ones on the back, to encourage the rear to kick out a little. Now I think understeer is almost right. Irritating, but almost right. It's the lack of the sensation of speed and momentum that seems to make it seem so much worse than it actually is.

Still, the fact that reverse 180s in FF work , while donuts in FRs don't, indicate that it is still off by some amount.

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You will not get any argument off me in this regard, I have (as you know) maintained for a very long time that the level of understeer in GT4 is not overdone, in fact I still maintain that its a touch on the light side. Most people who have said that understeer in GT4 is overdone, have then compared it to experiences they have had on the road; track work and the limits you can push to are far higher; road experience only goes so way.

The lack of sensation of speed is certainly part of it, as is the lack of g-force, but most critical for me is the lack of real 'feel' through the wheel and your butt. The DFP does try its best, and it works to a degree, but not as much as you get in a really 'talkative' car.

The inabilty to do a handbrake turn and/or donuts in GT4 with certain cars is a major issue, but its one that has apeared in various forms throughout the GT series.

niky

One thing that's still wrong is the lack of tire chirp for slower cars. Shifting at redline for almost anything over 120hp almost always causes tire chirp on less than race rubber. That just doesn't happen in the game. Again, a triumph of surface adhesion (lack of tire skip) over anything else.

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I would agree with what you say in regard to launching lower bhp cars, but shifting at the red-line and getting tyre chirp depends on so many other factors. My Celica on dry, warm tyres and tarmac will not give any noise going from 1st to 2nd, on a wet roa dits a different story. Again the issue of track tarmac I mentioned above plays a big part here.

niky

One thing I do know is that i'm swapping to my 17's on Advans next track day. With some of those old 323s and mitsus pushing over 200whp (GTX and Evo swaps to front wheel drive) and the Miata boys with forced induction and sticky rubbers, I'll need all the help I can get. ...and I'm not willing to compromise track durability with a turbo kit (some of the Evo swappers had severe heat problems after just one 20 minute session).

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Yes, get that rubber swapped over, in the real world as well as in GT, one of the single most effective upgrades you can carry out to your car, is getting better rubber. It does not matter what else you do to a car, unless the four little patches of rubber between the car and the track can do what you need, you aren't going to gain much time.

Regards

Scaff

I've really started to enjoy FF cars on GT4, I don't find the understeer to be too much or unrealistic. I think people only complain because they try and drive them like FRs.

Thats Pretty sweet Dude. I Like the Front End They used for the RS, I got me a 2002 Protege 2.0L I got Some Mods (Intake Exhaust Rims) That kind of stuff














Im pretty familiar with the ride, I race her at the Drag Strip twice a week (But out of commision for the rest of this year [only the rest of October] Because of distroyed shifter bushings and motor mounts) I didnt get proper motor mounts put in before I raced her this year and wasnt expecting them to go so fast, but sure enough they are all gone, Im lucky enough to get Mazda to replace the complete shifter and Im going to put in polyurithaine motor mounts to replace the shot stock mounts.

Im also pretty famillier with the GT4 Protege 2.0L and have a Sweet set up for her

Mazda Protege 2.0L '02



[Note]
I got a 7:05:XXX with this set up on the 'Ring. I know its not sub 7 min, BUT in a FF car with only 332hp its IMPRESSIVE. (And its a 4 door)

__________ (Race)
SR_______8.9/4.6
RH_______98/99
SB________5/2
SRB_______8/6
CA______2.8/0.5
TA________0/0
ST________6/4

LSD
IT__________12
Acel________28
Decel_______32

Breaks______4/2

Down-force____30/30

Gears
Final_________3.669
Auto___________09

NoS_______User-pref

ASM over______0
ASM under_____0
TCS___________6

Ballast
W__________98
KG_________47

Roll Cage______Y

Settings by Rac3rX

Parts
I install everything, if there is a Supercharger or a Turbo as an option I use the one with more hp, UNLESS stated otherwise.

Downforce
The downforce should be adjusted according to the track, For Races where there is tire wear, reducing the Downforce will add life to the tires. Some prefer not to add a wing to some cars, that is user pref, unless the game doesnt allow a wing to be added.

Tires
I Tune with Race tires, For races with tire wear try to use harder tires on the wheels applying power they will lose tread faster, try to ballance the tire wear for the front & rear with diferent softnesses of Tire.

Oil Changes & HP Loss
get oil changes as often as possible, as the cars engine will loose hp with deminished oil quality, a oil change gets the HP back up, but with mileage the car will eventually drop a little Hp.

Camber Angle
Increases to the Camber can be made to improve handling in banked turns, & in other various places along the track, it should be adjusted to the specific track needs.

ASM
I leave the ASM “Over-steer”, & “Under-steer” at 0, but theses are adjustable to your own preference, and to what YOU are comfortable with.

TCS
I Tune with Race tires so if you race the car with street tires, or Hard Racing tires, you might need to bump up the TCS if you are loosing a lot of traction. (mostly for the High Hp cars)

IMPORTANT

Gear Tuning
When setting the gears, you must always go in the following order; Auto, Then the Final, then individual gear settings if posted. Doing otherwise will result in odd gear reactions or unreachable variables. IF ever you do get odly working gears & or gears unobtainable variables and you confirmed you followed these steps, PLEASE PM me, DO NOT post it in this thread.

Your Thoughts
Please post your thoughts and opinions on the settings you try, if you like them or hate them, we need to know, and your comments will help people get a general idea of the settings.


Rac3rX

Guys, has left whatever relevance it had to GT4 in the dust long ago. I'm going to split most of these later posts off into the Automotive forum, where they belong.

Duke

Guys, has left whatever relevance it had to GT4 in the dust long ago. I'm going to split most of these later posts off into the Automotive forum, where they belong.

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No prob, but where did you put them?

I can't believe this got butchered and that million page topic on civics isn't. This was infinately more constructive and relevent.

...don't y'know? You just can't kill a Civic. Let's just wait for Duke to tell us where it went... really can't find it.

I Cant figure out what most of you are thinking, but from what I've seen, compared to real life driving FF cars in GT4 handle pretty similar-but there are 2 MAJOR problems 1.a 160 hp honda civic (or 200 for that matter) will NOT understeer due to wheelspin in 3rd or 4th gear. they do NOT have the power to spin the tires at speeds above 60 unless you really really try(i.e. crank the wheel rev it & dump the clutch) also there's nary a FF car that you can go full-throttle in 1st gear & not smoke the tires----which is horribley stupid. P.S. I Have a 98 Grand Am GT with a 150HP 2.4L 4Cyl & 5-Sp Man that gos 0-30 in 2.4 sec. with bald stock tires. It runs a 15.7 at 89mph try doing that with just about any---IF any FF cars in GT4 you'll either be going way faster ( see integra type R ) or Not run anywhere near as quick ( VW Golf IV GTI ) of course that is unless you use racing slicks -- which you dont get on stock vehicles as far as I know

It won't understeer due to excessive wheelspin, but at 3rd or 4th gear, you're doing over 100kph, so they'll understeer at full throttle anyway.

In 1st or 2nd gear turns on track, at full throttle, they will understeer all the way off the track unless you juggle it. On an open differential, you have no weight on the inside front, and it spins mighty quick, pushing you wide.

GT4 makes them understeer realistically most of the time, but in 2nd gear corners, the physics program all of a sudden decides that the rear loses traction and makes the car oversteer.

Oh, yes, you can smoke the tires anytime. What's wrong is that GT4 will smoke them at the top of the gear from a standing start on a rolling throttle (light pressure till you get to 3k rpm, then dump it), as I've never driven a sub-200 hp car that would break traction at the end of a gear, but not when biting into second.

well, i've had a FF car before that oversteered like crazy at the top of 3rd & 4th in fact at any speed over 70, whether full- throttle or trail-throttle or just holding even, the main question here is specific car suspension-chassis setups--also
some-(not all but some) can acutally oversteer through tight 2nd gear corners because without limited-slip your front tires spin like crazy- but can relativley suddenley regain most of that grip, & with the wheel turned as far as possible it will shoot the front end inside hence the back end out. it's one of the many weird inconsistent characteristics that make FF cars fun and easy to wreck.

just out of curiosity-- has anyone noticed the Sunfire GXP Concept is unbelievably slow? almost magically? even with 319hp, the is lucky to hit 150 👎 , even though, say a 225 hp Integra type R can get 156 or so stock??

LeadSlead#2

just out of curiosity-- has anyone noticed the Sunfire GXP Concept is unbelievably slow? almost magically? even with 319hp, the is lucky to hit 150 👎 , even though, say a 225 hp Integra type R can get 156 or so stock??

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That's probably because the Sunfire is supercharged. It runs out of breath so to speak in the high rpms.

It's because it's a 2.2 Supercharged Ecotec, with a four on the floor AT. I'm personally of the opinion that even when you swap trannies, the "manual" you put in is just as dodgy and heavy as the stock AT. EBiggs is right about the engine, no matter what you do, it stays supercharged, and the stock maps (which peak very low) remain.

It's amazing that the concept is even crappier than the real thing.

About the scary lift-oversteer in FFs, GT puts it into the shorter wheelbase cars, like the new Eclipse, the Clio, etc... but some cars that I know to have dodgy lift-oversteer characteristics in real-life, like my car and the Hyundai Tiburon, don't seem to have it... at least not in the right places.

The problem with full-lock in 2nd gear turns, I guess, is that you never use full-lock on a race track in a second gear turn... while using a DS2 just makes it too easy to get there. I've plowed into corners, braked, set up, and punched the throttle in second gear on turns and never once got a whiff of oversteer (except on lift-off). With a full-lock, granted, it may happen, but that's giving the rear tires too little credit. I've felt the rear come around under wheelspin, but never enough for the near-donuts GT allows you to do. Still, good call on the full lock observation... may try it out in the parking lot sometime... I'm going to join the next autocross to check on my impressions of FF car control.

Also, it has something to do with the lack of ABS in the game. A little brake lock goes a long way to contributing to snap-oversteer. The Honda SiR (equivalent to the 98 Si Coupe in the US, but with four doors) we were running with spun twice under braking into turns. But he was coming in way too "hot". Also, he was on really worn tires. The problem with GT4, is that the oversteer characteristics of FF cars seem to assume the rear tires are more worn than the fronts.