One of the developers behind the latest iteration of Need for Speed, NFS Shift, commented on the Gran Turismo 5 damage engine shown off at GamesCom last month. Obviously, his words weren’t exactly glowing, but you’ll find he provides interesting insight into the creative restrictions placed on racing game developers:
“We do as much as the manufacturers allow us to do, which is anything up to the point of encroaching the driver’s safety zone, which means we can’t tear the doors off.
“Actually, when the footage of Gran Turismo 5 came out of GamesCom with the doors flying off, we were all like ‘what the ****’? How are they able to do that?’ But then we looked closer and saw that they had fitted a roll cage to the car, which is fine, but it’s not quite so realistic. But to answer your question, yeah, hoods, bumpers and all that can come flying off in Shift.”
He later clarified his comments to GamerZines, stating that Polyphony Digital’s use of a rollcage in the Subaru was “a good workaround but one we haven’t had to do on Need For Speed: Shift”. Of course, it’s still odd he felt a roll cage in a WRC rally car was “not quite so realistic”, considering that Polyphony Digital weren’t working around anything other that what’s inside the actual vehicle. Regardless, if only “racing cars” show damage in GT5 (as is often speculated), this may be the reason.
The question, then, is just what are these developers – Polyphony Digital and otherwise – capable of when not bound by corporate buraucracy? Where does technology end, and the red tape begin? Are some developers able to negotiate more leniancy than others, or can they only show as much damage as the most conservative manufacturer in their game will allow? Perhaps I am the only one interested in finding out the answers to these questions, but until more people start asking them or developers start talking, they could remain a mystery for a long time to come.
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EA has restrictions because they have to make sure not to upset too many parents that buy games for their children. Always remember, the only limitation to EA’s development is “will it make enough sales to compensate for losses?”, and they achieve this by making the game ‘ok’ for enough people.
People, the problem is, even if one car manufacturer doesn’t allow it then I think Polyphony chose not to put damage at all than put in specific models. For example, just imagin in a race a BMW that could be smashed and a Ferrari that couldn’t.
Moreover, maybe the reason they don’t allow it in GT, is that since it’s supposed to be having simulated ultra realistic damage, then maybe other cars might show more damage than others when crashing with same speeds and that may make a few cars seem more unsafe than others.
…and finally, maybe they didn’t want the drivers to .. die.
What I can’t understand is why can’t they make you not die and instantly ask for restart race. Or put damage realism options. I think it sucks for casual cars NOT having damage, but hey, nothing we can do right? No matter how much we discuss about it, nothing is going to convince them otherwise..
Good to hear and considering SHIFT looks a generation ahead of FORZA 3 and GT5 the choice is obvious.
I just noticed one thing: the Impreza rally car in the pic has the hood loose and blocking the driver’s view. If the NFS guy was gonna talk about unrealistic, he should talk about this. ALL WRC cars (actually all race cars) by regulation have bonnet-pins/locks fitted so it is impossible for the hood to flap around like this. And even if it really happened, the car would’ve been black-flagged.
Yes he may be onto something there… For some unknown reason a racing game cant use destruction usefully. However FPS and all the other stuff can (with buildings and them falling on peoples heads? “Red faction guerilla”). I dislike car manufacturors for that >.> let us smash your cars, if we can vent our destruction here maybe people will do it less in real life =](a long shot but you know)
YA, but who would want to put a roll cage in all their production cars. we’d look dumb compared to all those forza fanboys. what would they think if i had to put a roll cage in my Zonda F Roadster. that would be just stupid.
I would say damage will be implemented eventually, a workaround will be needed though. Racing cars like the WRC can be damaged, which is great, because the number one cause for retiremnts in rallying are crashes. The NFS developer makes a good point about car makers frowning upon having a car shown to be unsafe (like with the door off leaving the driver to fall out almost). icant55 makes a good point about customising cars. Perhaps with a rollcage they can enter a higher class (Classes A-D or something) and be legible for damage.
Does nobody actually read the replies? Also, when did the guy say WRC cars wouldn’t have roll cages? See my post above.
OK, this moron from the NFS Shift team has just reminded me why I haven’t purchased any of the garbage produced by them since Porsche Unleashed. Has this guy ever been to a race or seen a race car in his life? Of course a WRC car will have a rollcage and side bars are commonplace in all forms of racing, even drag racing. . :-/ Its the NFS team that likes to produce fiction.
I don’t like damage, I like it even less in real life, so when i take a speed12 or a Toyota GT 1 to the limit, I thank my lucky stars that they are invcable. one of the good things about the GT series is that we can enjoy the fun of driveing and raceing a variety cars and not worry about the cost of maintenance. Imagine if we had to use real money, oh, yeah, DL content… I just hope the paint shows scraches.
I’m sure that Kazunori will surprise us all, we only don’t know, how. TGS should be a great surprise for us all, but I don’t think about better damage. I think day/night racing and (maybe) weather changes.
It all makes sense now. That 1000 cars for GT5, 170 of which have damage, was probably miss translated. What they meant to say was 1000 cars with damage, 170 of which have interior damage as well.
one more lol … but we do the customizing !!!
Add to above ,Like the GT cars on Prolouge
“Super Number” Pd should make it like the first Gt where you could take you car from a street car and convert it to a full race version, then we can smash then up! problem solve pd now give us release date ….
Edit above….”So yes, it would NOT be”…
I don’t think he was questioning that the Rally car, in of itself, had the little bracket on the door. He was pointing out that their workaround would be ODD…..if they did damage to all 1000 cars. Remember, the majority of cars in GT are real street cars that don’t have roll cages. The work around that Sony has would only work for the Race cars. So yes, it would be realistic if you were out racing a stock ZR1 and the door got ripped off, and the cage was there (so that PD could get past the license restrictions).
At no time did I get the impression that the Shift developer specifically meant this Subaru (racing WRC) is odd.
Jordan said, ‘Of course, it’s still odd he felt a roll cage in a WRC rally car was “not quite so realistic”, considering that Polyphony Digital weren’t working around anything other that what’s inside the actual vehicle.”
For the developer of a racing game to be amazed that a roll cage is present in a RACING CAR speaks volumes to the credibility of that developer. You can’t even bring a car to Speed’s PINKS All Out without a cage.
Give me a friggin break.
The Shift guy says “they added a rollcage, which is okay, but not very realistic” WRC cars have rollcages like that, and doors do fly off. What’s not very realistic?
First Gran Turismo was criticized for having NO damage, suddenly it now has TOO MUCH damage? What’s next? Air bag deployments? In my opinion, damage is a vastly overrated feature in games anyway. I just hope I can turn it off in GT5.
Ok this just a thought i just had on this subject and im in no way trying to go after forza 3 or NFS:Shift or any other racing games. So dont flame me.
But when coming to what developers are able to do i believe must be up to the manufactures mind.When damage comes to play i think it depends on how car manufactures feel about what they want to represent in a game.
For instance: Im going to say a BMW M3 since its the only thing i know will be in each game.
When it comes to forza 3 and NFS:Shift they might allow damage for those cars because (and don’t flame me)they know these games are not in the mindset that having cars in these games is not an “honor” or something so they allow them to damage their cars to some degree.
However, GT5 we know will be limited to damage on all cars and what weve seen is that damage is something clearly in the early phase and will be better enhance to have true damage. But some if not alot of manufactures maybe believe that cars in GT series have i great honor because they are in a known racing name that help build sim racing to where it is today.
So i think more so its a mindset given to developers by manufactures rather than the developer not wanting to.
Like i said my opinion and no way trying to be a onesided sim racer. I like the forza and NFS series too.
ahhaaaa sam_ny.
ima smack someone i WANT DIS GAME.
My question is:
CAN YOU INSTALL ROLLCAGES IN STOCK CARS???
:)
last sentence messed up.
mk1992- nailed it. ^
Although the more I play prologue the more convinced I am that my car will bounce off the highway guard rail without leaving a scratch. So maybe adding damage would convince me otherwise, even the the manufacturers don’t want damage.
I know the problem: if you can damage a road car too realisticly (and easily) the manufacturers think that us gamers will think that the cars aren’t safe because you can create damage when you smash a Golf into a concrete wall at 200km/h
I can understand what the manufacturers think, but I don’t agree with their motivation
On N4G it says that GT 5 is coming out 25th September this month!!!!!! From an extremably reliable source. I don’t think it’s true and I kind of hope it isn’t true, I’ve just pre-ordered DiRT 2
Anyone but me notice in the video of the Suby rally car (Gamescon demo), the Subaru is the only car that gets damaged. Not even the other rally car (Ford Focus st Rally car) gets damaged. Makes you wonder if damage was turned off for every car sept the Suby.
F*CK NEED FOR SPEED.
Im with jake on this, ill sue aswell
Also, can we get the cars to run over the doors and bumpers? From the last video the cars would push it around like a hockey puck
I can’t wait to see how the final damage look’s. If it’s only on the 170 cars that get damage then i hope the cars that dont get damage don’t bounce off walls or off each other. It pisses me off when they do that -_- .
Anyone have a video feed on in game Forza damage? Please link it so that we can see how well it real is.
@driver
dont forget free beer and easy women.
My undying question is how is Forzas unyielding damage engine is completely okay, as opposed to GT5 doing it”
Don’t thank God for news, thank Jordan =p. I find it a little irritating that manufacturers are so anal about damage to cars. Chances are, if you are driving 150mph and go into a wall, the driver would be injured. Next time I go into the wall at 100mph and get injured I’m suing the car companies for misleading me that their cars are invincible!
Why can Forza show damage and GT5 not in production cars? This would be an interesting question. I am a GT fan and I want to know why!?
The answer? The answer is 2009/12. Now be quiet.
The question?, the question is when is the bloody game out, thats what the question is
The guy must be referring about the bracket mounted in the door way, not the entire roll cage.
just give me realistic damage , 80 tracks , 1000 cars , day night weather , tunning , all cockpitvieuw headtracking , better grapix then gt5p and full 1080p 60fps i am happy
They should make their OWN real-life car, something similar to the Atom, and I’m not talking ’bout that Citroen by GT BS. And then they could do REALISTIC damage on that in the game, just to showcase their potential.
A roll cage in a wrc car isn’t odd, that’s what they all have, stupid tw@
Actually according to the Gamescom videos, the collision physics with cars AND environment have been much improved. I don’t have any links, but just check out some of the videos, and you can see that many of the videos, when a car gets tapped in the rear, it went spinning quite easily and realistically IMO. So PD is definitely going in the right direction.
This really is nonsense like you all already said (no rollcage…jesus). I agree with Daniel that the collison physics are very important and need to be improved, but i do not understand why so much of you critisize the damagesystem. It was said that it isnt the “final” one. It is just a step and as far as i know polyphony we wont see the final one till short time before release (hopefully TGS_09).
But i am sure that they will not release GT5 with this type of damagesystem and i also think for an early version of damage it looks nice.
They have to show a lot of GT5-Details at the TGS and i believe they will.
Mfg
Well that shows the “quality” of NFS:SHIFT creators and developers…if they say that roll cage is not realistic in WRC car OR if they can’t see difference between Rally car and Stock car, then you can wonder how _real_ are their games….0_o
What the hell is this guy on about? Show me one rally car that doesn’t have a roll cage.
If you want to see what developers are capable of damage wise, then just look to games with unlicensed cars, games such as burnout or flatout to name a couple(not comparing them to Gran Turismo), these games show what CAN be done damage wise, and thats pretty much the limit so far for games, when you are only looking at damage. Im not saying GT or any other racing simulator series should have damage to that extent but when developers arent being held back to manufacturers restrictions, thats what can be done.
But personally, the thing that i think needs sorting out is not the damage, but the collison physics, that is my one niggle with the GT series so far, bumping into another car on Gran Turismo just feels ever so slightly…arcadey? And having damage with lame collision physics, personally i dont think is worth having, you need one to have the other, and for them to feel realistic together. But really thats my only problem with GT so far everything else to me looks just amazing, cant wait!
There was a little Spanish flea
A record star he thought he’d be
He heard of singers like Beatles, the Chipmunks he’d seen on TV
Why not a little Spanish flea?
They have to license cars from manufacturers, and agree to the terms set by that contract. The game is not considered advertising for the cars. It costs a lot of money to license 800 cars, but I’m sure the VAST majority were all but bought and paid for when developing GT2-4. I don’t think they want to go back and renegotiate with all those manufacturers to get permission for damage. That’s why you won’t see it in road cars.
Most open top race cars have a roll bar hidden behind the drivers head.
I think the point the developer is trying to make is about how much (magnitude) damage is not so realistic.
He means that if the car was hit hard enough to take a door off it would almost certainly encroach on the roll cage – at least a little. And I agree, I’ve seen it in real life where a race car takes a small hit that doesn’t even take a body part off but damages the roll cage in some way.
Most of us agreed already, when we saw the video of this, that the damage is less than realistic. You simply can not drive one car into another at such a rate and have the damaged car continue albeit with less performance.
I’d like to see where they can take damage in the future, to see just how realistic they can make it, but only as an excersise.
It would make for a lowsy game if almost very shunt you had ended your race. In real life touching a car or concrete wall just slightly can break wheels, suspension bits, and more. Most of the accidents that happen in online races would end those races in the first corner and really what fun is that?
Kevin@
The manufacturers pay the game producers(PD) to have their cars in the game. To the manufacturers it’s advertising(which is why they pay). PD doesn’t pay a cent, although to put damage on the cars, who knows.
can somebody answer my question which I have been dragging with me for some time now. Do game producers pay car manufacturers to have their cars in their game or is it that Manufacturers pay the game producers to have their cars in the game?
Or is it something free of charge sort of? (which I doubt since in this world nothing is free of charge)
I think that PD should show what they are able to do in damage subject via for example the Citroen by PD car – I mean they helped create that car so they shouldn’t be held beck by any “car producer” (I hope Citroen would not be able to say too much :) ) and then we would see how could damage really look like if that holding back thing is really the case.
Of course, there is a rollcage.That guy does not no what he is talking about.
damage again..YAwn..
As is stands Shifts damage is better than this GT5 damage, but hopefully this is only an early build. However if this is the final damage and its only going to be in on race cars and KY promised ‘realistic’ damage that would be the biggest GT fail in history!
All race car have rollcage(rally car,NASCAR,WTCC,DTM,SuperGT,FIA GT) only Formula and LM prototype not have rollcage!!!!
Thank GOD for news, sick of Jay.
Why is everyone so preoccupied with GT5 vs Shift? The real story is about there developer limitation. Anyways with this lid bit of information, I am hopeful that we will get simulation (not cosmetic) damage on the premium models.
For example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hc9W4X9qBZk
Cant understand what is this guy talking about..whats wrong/unrealistic with a rollcage in the race cars??Specificly in the impreza wrc..
http://www.scoobyblog.com/uploads/2008/05/subaru_impreza_wrc_2008_01.jpg
Guess what are that blue bars inside??rollbars maybe?? :O
About that NFS guy only one word…ENVY.
There is nothing unrealistic about roll-cages in a rally car… he’s trying to defend his point, but he has done it awefully, hence the reason for which the likes of GT and may even Forza are on top, because “they know what they’re talking about!” It is such a statment that demonstrates why GT’s and Forza’s games are better than NFS… no disrespect to NFS because they are in themselves good games, but not quite as good as others as a result of issues which have been clearly highlighted in this statement.
As for the question regarding how far game developers could actually go, if permitted to do so, I for one would also be massively intrigued to know. The question is would developers ever be allowed to go far with damage and the like, and if so how would they demonstrate it?… creating a new game altogether would be impractical to simply show that as a one off thing… meanwhile, if the permission was permanent then a new game would be awesome, and finally we would most probably be able to see the true power and purpose of racing / driving simulators!
LMAO @ the Shift fool! Those side bars have been utilised for years now and you can have a rollcage with them fitted to your road car if you want no problem. Loads of people drive a road legal car with rollcage fitted, Idiot!
There is no burocracy holding back PD from at least TRYING to make the cars sound realistic. I don’t give a damn whether the doors fall of of not, as long as it sounds like I’m actually driving the car instead of sitting in a garage revving it. There is no excuse for weak engine sound on the PS3.
what the hell is this guy talking about? whats unrealistic in a rollcage in a rally car?
Let’s not overemphasize on things that have been said in an interview. Things can get changed and interpreted wrongly. The people who create NFS shift also created the GTR games. Those were pretty good.
If that is the reason for not having full blown damage on all the cars, so be it. GT is not Flatout.
Thank god for some new news, I was getting sick of seeing Jay Leno staring back at me every time I visited the site!
Yes a roll cage in a wrc car is very odd…
I’m not sure if i’m missing anything but is the shift developer saying that having a rollcage in a racing car is not realistic even though its in FIA regs?
You’re not missing anything, rich85tegr. It’s a very strange thing for him to say.