GT4 and Brakes
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SuperCobraJet
You will find this with a lot of mid engined cars, they are generally very sensitive to sudden changes in weight distribution when cornering. So any sudden braking or acceleration while turning can upset the balance of the car, also due to the normally very central COG when they let go, it is very rapid and can be hard to catch.
It is hard to be senstive with the DS2 when trail braking with mid-engined cars, a wheel is easier, but it still takes practice. However you will always need to be sensitive to the balance of the car.
SuperCobraJet
To understand Threshold braking you need to understand how a car brakes, as I'm sure you know when you press on the brake pedal this forces the brake pads on the discs (or shoes onto the drums) this then slows the rotation of the wheels.
As the wheels slow they are moving at a different rate to the car, this is known as the slip percentage. A cars tyres can only accept a certain slip percentage before they lose grip and you lose traction. It is this slip rate that princiapaly determines how quickly a car slows down.
Now the braking system of a car is capable of applying braking force at a very high level, and if you just stamp on the brake pedal, the braking force will force the tyre to exceed its slip percentage and the wheel(s) will lock.
Threshold braking is maintaining the braking force at a level that ensure you are at the maximum deceleration offered by the tyre, without exceeding its slip percentage.
Gradually releasing braking force as you start to enter a turn is know as trail braking and allows you to overlap the braking and throttle phase of a turn.
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Uncle Harry
My post was writen from work (so no GT4 to hand), as is this one, so I am going form memory.
I seem to remember that the Brake balance controller scrolling text says that it effects the braking force and application of the ABS system, I'm sure it did in GT3, but can't be 100% with regard to GT4 (and I can't check right now).
To be honest you could remove the ABS bit from my post and it would still hold true for GT4.
For example
Scaff
Must check on this tonight.
Edited to add:
Right I've had a chance to check on the GT4 setup screen and when you are in the adjustments screen for the Brake Balance controller it says that it controls the strength of the ABS system.
I also checked ASM, and it clearly states that it uses the brakes to control under and oversteer. While it does not mention if it also carries that over to straight line braking, it is quite possible that this does de-activatethe ABS system.
Scaff is a happy bunny once again, more testing to do, going to pick a nice fast car that is sensitive under braking (Ford GT looks like a good choice to me) and have a play around.
SuperCobraJet
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In essence, threshold braking could also be described as sustained maximum efficiency braking, which is achevied by maintaining braking at the threshold of slip percentage, through out the braking period, less possibly the trail brake phase. Hence the name.Scaff
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Scaff
Right its taken me a while to find the time for this one, work, family and all that stuff, but for anyone thats interested here we go.
First off, you should be aware than the results if this test are subjective and based purely on what I would expect to find in real life when comparing the braking distances between ABS and non ABS equiped cars when exceeding the tyres grip level under hard straight line braking.
Now what I expected to find was than a car fitted with ABS should stop quicker than a car without ABS, if the tyres lock under hard braking. Please be aware that threshold braking will be quicker than either of these, but thats another subject.
The reason behind this is that the ABS system is able to release and apply the brake many thousands of times a second when it detects that the tyres has exceeded its slip percentage. Without ABS you are simply waiting for the tyre to regain grip, if and when it does .
The question is, does setting the cars ASM to zero disable the ABS.
The car I used was a Ford GT fitted with Comfort tyres (to ensure I was looking at a low grip level), a brake balance controller was fitted, but no sports brakes. The brakes were applied from 200 mph, I use the DFP and just floored the brake pedal, straight to 100% braking force (threshold in the Ford GT from these speeds is about 85%)
The first run was with the brakes set at 3 front and rear, stoping from 200 mph. This was done with ASM set to 0 and then 20, the average of each set of three runs was used. With the brakes set low I would expect to see a small difference, if any. I then repeated this with the brakes set at 20 front and rear, with this much higher setting (which should make locking the brakes easier) I would expect the differences to be greater.
Results
Set 1
BB 3/3
ASM 20 (both)
Stopping distance 21.5 mi (no idea what an mi is)
Set 2
BB 3/3
ASM 0 (both)
Stopping Distance 22 mi
The difference was 0.5 mi, too small to be conclusive as a difference of this size (even with an average of three runs) could be down to the driver (me).
Set 3
BB 20/20
ASM 20 (both)
Stopping distance 20.5 mi
Set 4
BB 20/20
ASM 0 (both)
Stopping distance 22.7
Thats a difference of 2.2 mi with the brake balance set to max front and rear, and a much move obvious difference.
Conclusion
Well the test results seem to back up what I would expect to see in a real car, and would suggest that disabling the ASM does affect the ABS system to a very small degree, but its certainly not turned off as it is still not possiable to lock the brakes.
However, and it is a big however the differences are small at best and I would treat these results as an interesting start. I personally believe that ABS and ASM are linked, but will be looking further into this, I need to try a few more cars.
Any and all constructive feedback on the above would be appreciated.
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ABS is designed to give steering control when applying full force braking. I suggest a braking and turning test to see if you have steering with ASM on and no steering when ASM is off.
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Uncle Harry
Just what I was planning to do next, just wanted to see what the initial results from straight line braking were like to test the water.
While you are quite right that ABS was designed to allow steering control while under full braking, and is a major active safety device, one of the most important on modern road cars.
It will also stop a car quicker that if you just jump on the pedal and lock the tyres. It is still slower than threshold braking, but a good safety element for road cars, as it means that the average driver does not have to worry about the tyres limit as the car will assist them.
I started with straight line tests initialy as they are the most strightforward to measure consistently. Should have said all this in my last post, many thanks for getting me off my backside and into clearing it up.
Should be interesting this one (or maybe thats just me)..
Scaff
Are you saying that you've actually measured threshold braking in GT4? i.e., that by pressing the pedal 85% you will come to a complete stop faster than pressing 100%? I have not noticed this. It seems to me that GT4 automatically threshold brakes for you.
If I've got time, I'll test this.
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I think, too often, people forget that they must use 100% of their tires and no more. When braking, if you break too hard, you can neither turn or retain your stability if you indeed lock up your tires (because you can't turn!). So pressing the breaks to only say 80% will likely be better for you because you won't lock up your breaks and you have a little bit of control still as far as keeping the car straight--more so if you don't use the ASM like myself.
I think the best visualization for tire-use is in GT2's manual (in my version, the US/NTSC version). It has a circle with two perpendicular lines crossing in the center. The edge of the circle represents 100% tire use. The lines represent the car's CoG insofar as acceleration and turning. If you turn 100%, you'll lose your traction and start sliding if you do anything other than continue to turn. It seems like common knowledge, but a lot of times you'll forget something so basic. I mean, apply this to breaking. 100% breaking means you may or may not be using 100% of your tires, you're just using 100% of your breaks. So you could actually be using 125% of your tires which basically means you're not using them anymore. You're outside of this circle and you're tires aren't functioning as they should. Of course you're gonna have an increase in you're stoppind distance.
No offense meant to anyone. Just trying to help out a bit.
I think the best visualization for tire-use is in GT2's manual (in my version, the US/NTSC version). It has a circle with two perpendicular lines crossing in the center. The edge of the circle represents 100% tire use. The lines represent the car's CoG insofar as acceleration and turning. If you turn 100%, you'll lose your traction and start sliding if you do anything other than continue to turn. It seems like common knowledge, but a lot of times you'll forget something so basic. I mean, apply this to breaking. 100% breaking means you may or may not be using 100% of your tires, you're just using 100% of your breaks. So you could actually be using 125% of your tires which basically means you're not using them anymore. You're outside of this circle and you're tires aren't functioning as they should. Of course you're gonna have an increase in you're stoppind distance.
No offense meant to anyone. Just trying to help out a bit.
ABS is designed to stop the Brakes Locking and therefore sending the car into a skid + you really dont want to be turning a car when the ABS has been activated
it works by not clamping the pads onto the disc it will instead apply force on and off very quickly to achieve braking power without locking the wheels
this is why in days before BAS you were taught to pump the brakes if you had to stop sharply(to avoid locking up)
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ADestroy
What do you mean? ABS's one purpose is that you CAN steer the car while full braking.
And, IMHO the idea of pump braking is to lock/unlock the wheels. While locked there's quite good braking power and while unlocked the car goes where the front wheels point=you can steer the car. There are lots of different braking techniques for different situations/surfaces etc. IRL I'm glad to have ON/OFF-switch for ABS in my car, so I can set it OFF while training on the track etc. When I want to fully control my car I don't like if there's some technical devices to "help" me.
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ADestroy
So you don't want to turn/steer your car while heavy braking if there's let's say an accident on the motorway and some obstacles (cars maybe?) in your way? No need for any arguing here, just my opinions.
👍so you change the subject as to whether you want to turn on a motorway or not?
thats completley off topic as far as im concerned as there are no motorways in GT
yes the obsactle (car) is WHY you are braking, the system is designed for worst case scenario e.g. cars on either side forcing you to brake in a straight line, in fact all car manufactureres will tell you to brake in a straight line, yes abs was designed for Road cars and was adapted for racing
thats completley off topic as far as im concerned as there are no motorways in GT
yes the obsactle (car) is WHY you are braking, the system is designed for worst case scenario e.g. cars on either side forcing you to brake in a straight line, in fact all car manufactureres will tell you to brake in a straight line, yes abs was designed for Road cars and was adapted for racing
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ADestroy
Sorry, but you may have the theory of how ABS works right, but you are wrong on its application.
ABS is designed to allow you to steer around objects when braking hard; before you tell me I'm wrong, you may want to take a look a my profile, in particular my job. I've trained manufacturer and dealership staff in the motor industry for the last seven years.
One of my areas of speciality is Active and Passive safety systems.
Take a good look at this
ABS
The following is an extract
"When your wheels lock up on wet and slippery roads or during a panic stop, you may lose traction and control, causing your vehicle to spin. Antilock brakes keep your wheels from locking up, so your car maintains directional control around hazards if you cant make a complete stop in time."
Guess that says it all.
ADestroy
That I am afraid is total and utter rubbish. I am one of many people in the industry who delivers this type of training, and we train people to AVOID accidents, not to just jam on the brakes in a straight line.
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FIDO69
I have not actual measured this yet, but with certain car/tyre combinations I have found that threshold braking can be done.
The two cars I have come across it on the most are the Renault 5 Turbo (road car) and the Ford GT, give them a go down the un-chicaned Mulsanne straight and try 100% brakes vs around 85%.
This is another one I want to test fully, just to make sure I'm not going mad.
Hope its not another one like the sports brakes, i.e. not measurable, but when you know you've got them fitted you seem to go quicker. Still can't get my head around that one.
Edited to add; I've just remembered I have a shot of the R5 Turbo just after I came off the brakes, you can still see the smoke from the locked left hand rear tyre.
Scaff,
Question for you. If tires are the most important part of braking (and they are), why is it that tire manufacturers don't tout their braking distances? They could do it with practically any car and this would tell us consumers which tires to buy? Why don't groups like Consumer Reports do these tests? Wouldn't these tests pretty much clear up (on a first order approximation) which tires will accelerate and corner the best, too?
Also, why the heck do CAR manufacturers tout their braking distances? Since it's just a matter of tire compound... (well, suspension will play a small part, too...)
Question for you. If tires are the most important part of braking (and they are), why is it that tire manufacturers don't tout their braking distances? They could do it with practically any car and this would tell us consumers which tires to buy? Why don't groups like Consumer Reports do these tests? Wouldn't these tests pretty much clear up (on a first order approximation) which tires will accelerate and corner the best, too?
Also, why the heck do CAR manufacturers tout their braking distances? Since it's just a matter of tire compound... (well, suspension will play a small part, too...)
Scaff
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FIDO69
One of the best questions I've seen in a long while.
I can answer with some degree of authority with regard to car manufacturers; they would (and do) claim that as a specific brand of tyre is fitted as original equipment and therefore an integral part of the car the stopping distance is for the car as fitted with original equipment.
Its a spurious claim, but you have to remember that its aimed at the mass consumer, who does not know (or in many cases want to know) any better. Marketing departments love this kind of thing as its safety related (or performance - depends on the car and the spin) and can easily be used as a sales tool.
Take a look at a few car brochures and while manufacturers are happy to quote stopping distances, they get very, very careful with the wording when it comes to talking about it. It also seems to be a much bigger issue in the US than in Europe, as sales literature here very rarely mentions exact stopping distances.
Tyre manufacturers is actually much more straightforward, they know that while the tyre is the single biggest factor in determining a stopping distance, it is of course subject to the environment that the braking occurs in. i.e. wet vs dry braking. Autocar in the UK does test this kind of thing each year, using very controlled conditions (if I can find an old copy I will scan it for you).
Also its not a major selling/marketing point for the tyre manufacturers, as this thread has shown quite well, the true importance of tyres in stopping distances is a very difficult subject to get across to a lot of people. They simply refuse to believe it, as such its easier to use more obvious benifits to market and sell your tyre.
Hope that answers your questions.
Scaff
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Scaff
Since you suggest trying threshold braking over cadence braking with my DS2, I've been practising non-stop in a quest for lap-time improvements and have managed to build up enough control with the brake button to match my throttle control.
As a consequence I've found my lap-times have come down considerably and would concur that threshold braking does seem possible and benficial in GT4 (also I've noticed particularly with the Ford GT).
Once I felt my skills were up to a test run, I took the GT to two hard braking corners (on free run) and tested it out as best I could. The first test was at Sarthe II, braking at the end of the Mulsanne straight. I ran 5 laps at 100% Braking, 5 laps at 85% (obviously I can't guarantee I got exactly 85% everytime, but I believe I was pretty consistent) and 5 laps at 85% increasing to 100% just before turn-in.
I then repeated the test at Seoul reverse, breaking to a stop. All were from 150mph and I started braking at the same point each time
I was surprised at my results, there really wasn't a lot of difference in stopping distance at Seoul but in general, the 85% braking pulled up faster than the 100% braking (marginally, maybe an average of half a car length) but the third test was better still (does this make RL sense?)
When Braking into the corner the threshold braking made it much easier to control the speed of the car into the corner and since I had more control of the speed it was easier to get it to optimum cornering speed everytime, leading to a faster corner exit.
Overall though I found the difference to be negligible, but if I run whole laps using threshold braking, I've found I can be anywhere from .5 to 2 secs faster than if I use cadence braking. Is it that my test wasn't scientific enough to show the differences? Is it psychological (I feel I'm in control of the braking so I'm driving faster)? Is it that I'm getting better speed through corners from more braking control, less upset car balance (You said cadence braking would mess up the weight transfer)?
I hope somebody else does some tests, but I don't think you going mad, threshold braking is making a difference I just can't work out whether it's affecting the stopping distances or it just feels like it is.
Oh and regarding racing brakes in the game - since this thread said they seemed to make no difference (to anything) I took them off and suddenly could run the same times I was running with them, without them (does that make sense?) Previously I had always run faster times with them on, but with the thought that they were any benefit put out of my mind, I assumed I wasn't faster because of the racing brakes, and lo and behold, I was just as fast without them. Weird.
Sorry for the epic post, but this threads one of the most interesting and well thought through on the whole board. And you always reply. Which is nice.
Scaff
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route_66
Wow, excellent work and glad to see you got results.
The one thing that you have discovered is that locking the tyres it a lot harder in GT4 than in real life, partly down to the physics and the grip levels offered by the tyres.
Still the results of the tests you have done do show threshold braking can be a very benificial method of braking (certainly one I use). In regard to the lower lap times, in real life a racing driver would give just about anything to knock 0.5 - 2 seconds off lap times. Thats a supurb gain, just imagine the difference it would give over a 10 lap race, between 5 and 20 seconds if you're consistent; thats certainly worth a few places and maybe the difference between first and second.
The reason behind your gains are hard to be specific about (after all I can't see you drive), but you would normally benifit in the two areas you have mentioned. Shorter braking distances (over cadence braking or locked tyres) and you are right a more stable car is able to corner slightly quicker than an unstable one. Now these gains will be small; but as you have observed, they multiply over the lap into some substantial gains. Another advantage is if you can keep a car stable under braking, you are more likely to get it set up correctly for the corner, which means less chance of losing control.
In regard to racing brakes, as you have preobably read in the rest of this thread, they seem to offer no mesurable advantage at all. Personally I now don't even bother fitting them, and have suffered no problems at all. I am still however thinking about any new way to test them, maybe I just need to get the car and track conditions right, still that one is on the back burner for now.
Okay, the car manufacturer's I can understand... maybe. But the tire manufacturers don't want to market their tires as safer? "buy our tires, you'll stop an average of 20ft faster! Buy our expensive tires, you'll save the life of your kiddies!" I don't see why they couldn't bamboozle the audience with statistics taken from real life testing on the most popular brands of automobiles...
I hate it. I recently bought a set of new tires for my RL car, and I have no idea where it stacks up against other similarly priced tires... BF Goodrich Traction T/A's... and I've searched for tire data... Please do post your magazine data. Thanks!
I hate it. I recently bought a set of new tires for my RL car, and I have no idea where it stacks up against other similarly priced tires... BF Goodrich Traction T/A's... and I've searched for tire data... Please do post your magazine data. Thanks!
Scaff
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FIDO69
I quite agree, its a right pain that this kind of information is not availiable to the general buying public, I will have a look for the Autocar test for you and post it up.
In regard to how tyre manufacturers advertise, I would suspect its down to the desire to market to the lowest common denominator. I would imagine they would be more worried about confusing potential customers, marketing departments far prefer simple, easy to put across campaigns.
Edited to add I've just found the Autocar 1999 tyre tests on the web, its not the most recent, but it should be of interest.
Autocar 1999 Tyre test
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I wanted to add a point about ABS and misconceptions. It's pretty well settled that ABS is designed to ALLOW steering while braking hard. A locked wheel has no directional control.
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel (real-world, not GT4, obviously), ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
As for GT4, it definitely rewards threshold braking. You can't gold the Viper start/stop test if you use 100% brakes, the car skids through the finish area. You have to find that point not quite at the contoller's limit of movement to get maximum braking force. A competitive driver prefers controlling braking force without electronic interference. As an autocrosser, I used to pull the ABS fuse to make my runs, till I was "busted" and politely asked to leave my systems intact. (I ran in a stock class, which means I could not change anything not specifically allowed by the rules. I could change my muffler and wheel alignment, but I was not allowed to disable electronic systems by pulling fuses.
)
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel (real-world, not GT4, obviously), ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
As for GT4, it definitely rewards threshold braking. You can't gold the Viper start/stop test if you use 100% brakes, the car skids through the finish area. You have to find that point not quite at the contoller's limit of movement to get maximum braking force. A competitive driver prefers controlling braking force without electronic interference. As an autocrosser, I used to pull the ABS fuse to make my runs, till I was "busted" and politely asked to leave my systems intact. (I ran in a stock class, which means I could not change anything not specifically allowed by the rules. I could change my muffler and wheel alignment, but I was not allowed to disable electronic systems by pulling fuses.
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Tire size and width helps to determine the amount of grip your car will have. Something few people note is that suspension setup is also a determining factor in your braking. In real life this is true as well. The book even tells you the suspension determines the amount of force on the tire. If the suspension isn't quite right you will overload the tire and at least one will begin to skid. Once the tire starts to skid you lose its grip and it is very difficult to regain the control of the tire. Larger and wider tires always offer more grip because they contact the road over a larger surface area and therefore increase the friction/grip the tire can use to hold the car down and slow it. Having huge brakes doesn't slow you down quicker. Having huge brakes and a suspension setup matching the tires you have equipped does. I easily fixed the SLR's braking problems by altering the suspension setup. The weight was evenly distributed throughout the sport tires and therefore they do not slide and the car will slow astonishingly faster than originally. The airbrake doesn't hurt either! It is not driving style but setup skill which keeps you on the road.
Scaff
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wfoosheeI wanted to add a point about ABS and misconceptions. It's pretty well settled that ABS is designed to ALLOW steering while braking hard. A locked wheel has no directional control.
The other big misconception about ABS which I didn't see here is that it maximizes stopping power, which isn't true. It maximizes control, but if the surface has no grip, like sand or gravel (real-world, not GT4, obviously), ABS can increase your stopping distance by an amazing amount. It will not increase your grip. You'll be perfectly in control as you drive downhill through the stop sign onto the highway across traffic. The surface has so little grip that the brakes spend as much time off as on, and released brakes do not slow a car down. In sand or gravel, a locked wheel can dig into the surface and you'll stop faster than an ABS stop with the brakes pumped off as much as on, but with no steering control.
Another thing that happens with ABS is pedal feedback, which startles many people into letting off the pedal!!!!!! Just the thing to do in a panic stop. . . . If you have an ABS-equipped car, but have never braked hard enough to use ABS, I suggest you find a dirt road or wet parking lot and go through a couple of hard stops to see what it feels like, rather than be surprised in an emergency.
A trained driver (not someone who's been taught how to steer, but someone who truly understands the vehicle's dynamic behavior, i.e. Hans Stuck compared to your average soccer mom) can threshold brake with ABS off and beat anybody's ABS stops every time, whether it be wet, dry, gravel, tarmac, clean, or sandy. That training and experience is expensive, and not done for the masses, so give them ABS every time.
As for GT4, it definitely rewards threshold braking. You can't gold the Viper start/stop test if you use 100% brakes, the car skids through the finish area. You have to find that point not quite at the contoller's limit of movement to get maximum braking force. A competitive driver prefers controlling braking force without electronic interference. As an autocrosser, I used to pull the ABS fuse to make my runs, till I was "busted" and politely asked to leave my systems intact. (I ran in a stock class, which means I could not change anything not specifically allowed by the rules. I could change my muffler and wheel alignment, but I was not allowed to disable electronic systems by pulling fuses.
Excellent summary of ABS 👍
Scaff
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As this thread has grown and become more and more used, I have found that people are having a lot of problems finding information.
I have just edited my first post to change it into an Introduction, summary and index of tests, discussions, links, etc.
It is my hope that this will make it a little less intimidating to newcomers, and easier to use for old hands.
I have also now moved the thread to the Car tuning and Settings forum (which I should have doen a long time ago) and can now only hope that a mod feels it is of enough use to 'sticky' it.
I have just edited my first post to change it into an Introduction, summary and index of tests, discussions, links, etc.
It is my hope that this will make it a little less intimidating to newcomers, and easier to use for old hands.
I have also now moved the thread to the Car tuning and Settings forum (which I should have doen a long time ago) and can now only hope that a mod feels it is of enough use to 'sticky' it.
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Thank you for that first-post-editing.
