GT4 and Brakes

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Compression Braking

Compression braking or as it is commonly know Engine braking is an often used and just as often misunderstood term. I hope in this post to clarify exactly what it is and how it functions as well as discuss its use, miss-use and disadvantages for track use.

In a future post I will also be looking at how Compression braking has been implemented in GT4.


How does Compression Braking work?

In the simplest terms Compression Braking is using the engine to slow the car. It occurs because unless the clutch is engaged and/or the brakes are applied the speed of the driven wheels is determined by the engine; remove your foot from the throttle and the engine will slow and with it the driven wheels. However if you remove your foot from the throttle and engage the clutch, the engine and driven wheels are not connected and the only thing slowing the car will be friction from the tyres and the resistance of the air, as a result the car will take much longer to stop.

This is all fairly simple stuff and it is possible to judge approximately what speed a car should be doing at any engine speed in a particular gear, using the ‘MPH per 1,000 rpm’ figure, which is derived from the cars gear ratios, axle ratio and tyre diameter.

If for example we take the Ford GT, with the following MPH per 1,000 rpm figures as an example.

1 = 9.8
2 = 15
3 = 20.1
4 = 27.2
5 = 33.2
6 = 40.6

Now using these figures we can examine Compression braking both in gear and through the gears.

If the car is in 3rd gear at 5,000rpm the car speed would be approx 100.5 mph, if you lifted off the throttle completely and relied on the drop in engine speed to slow the car the speed would drop according to the engine speed (if you remain in 3rd gear) as follows.

5,000 rpm = 100.5 mph
4,000 rpm = 80.4 mph
3,000 rpm = 60.3 mph
etc

This clearly shows the relationship between allowing engine speed to drop and it slowing the car; the amount of time this would take depends on a number of factors, such as engine compression ratio (generally the high this is the quicker the drop in engine speed) and flywheel and driveshaft weight. Using this method to slow the car down will always be far, far slower that using the brakes.


Compression braking when changing down through the gears can have a far more dramatic effect as illustrated below (using the Ford GT figures).

The car is travelling at approx 100 mph in 3rd gear (approx 5,000 rpm) when the driver begins to brake slowing the car to 50mph, the speed required to take our imaginary corner.

At this point the gear is changed to 2nd with the revs at approx 2,000 rpm, when the clutch is disengaged the engine speed dictates a speed of 30mph (2 * 15mph per 1,000 rpm).

The car is travelling at 50mph, but the engine speed and gearing dictate that it should be travelling at 30mph. This 20mph difference in the speed the car is travelling at compared with the speed the engine wants to travel at is going to be transferred to the driven wheels and slow the car in a dramatic and un-controlled manner. In turn the wheels will also try to resist this rapid deceleration and speed up the engine.

If however the driver had ‘blipped’ the throttle to approx 3,300 rpm before the clutch is disengaged then the engine speed would match the car speed and no additional braking would be experienced, keeping the car stable.

Compression braking on the road
Many driver use compression braking on the road when changing gear to help slow the car and with older cars it can help if the brakes are poor or fading. With modern cars it is generally considered unnecessary as the braking system is more that sufficient.

Many people would argue that using compression braking saves on wear and tear on the brakes, however just as many people would say that what you save in pads and discs you lose in wear and tear to the engine and drive-train. Its hard to say who is 100% right on this one as it would vary from car to car and driver to driver.

On a personal level I don’t using compression braking when changing down as I consider the sudden braking force it generates too sharp and prefer the smoother experience you get with heel and toe downshift that match engine speed to road speed.

One useful aspect of in-gear compression braking is often used in off road driving when descending a steep slope, here the rev limiter and knowledge of mph per 1,000 rpm can be used to control your descent speed without touching any of the pedals.


Compression braking on the track
I would be surprised if many professional drivers use compression braking (even on endurance events) and I am yet to come across a race school that recommends its use. While it does help conserve the pads, it does no good to a race tuned engine; they are not designed to slow the car, but to power it.

With Compression braking it is very difficult to judge how much additional deceleration you will get, as a result if you are already at the threshold of braking (or near it) you could well overload the tyres grip level and lose control, flat spots on the tyres will result which will hammer your lap times.

Changing the pads on an endurance race spec car is relatively quick and easy, and a task regularly carried out in the pits during endurance racing. It is also far less time consuming to have to change the pads, than it is replace an engine component (or retire through engine failure) or lose time over a number of laps because you've just flat spotted a tyre.

I have watched numerous endurance races, and have session reviews of Le Mans dating back to the 1960's, also a documentary on the Morgan team at Le Mans and Bathurst. I can't remember ever hearing a driver talk of using compression braking out of choice. Now if the brakes have failed for some reason, you may not have a choice; but that’s a different thing.

You should also remember that compression braking will only directly effect the driven wheels, shifting the brake bias in that direction. With the majority of race cars being rear wheel drive, this would mean a major brake bias to the rear wheels, if the car is anything other than straight you may now be in a situation of just trying to control the car rather than brake and setup the car for the corner entrance. Even if the car is in a straight line, if the car is running a high compression engine (which increases the effect of engine braking) it can be enough to lock the rear wheels and get the back of the car twitching. Neither of these scenarios is worth conserving a little bit of brake pad material. You would get more of a saving on the brakes through good brake control and technique than you ever will through engine braking.

A quick quote from Danny Sulivan (of the Skip Barber racing school) illustrates this point
"To put it into perspective, at Laguna Seca, which is hard on brakes, Rick Mears and I were team mates at Penske and Rick finished the race with only 70 thousandths of an inch of brake pad material left. I only used 70 thousandths of the pad in winning the race. People brake differently but can still run the same lap time, especially in a race"


The following is an extract from the Russ Bentley books "Speed Secrets - Profressional Race Driving Techniques"

"Again, the reason for downshifting is not to slow the car. I can't emphasise this enough. That's what brakes are for. Too many drivers try to use the engine compresion braking effect to slow the car. All they really achieve is upsetting the balance of the car and hindering braking effectiveness (if the brakes are right at the limit before locking up and you then engine braking to the rear wheels, you will probably lock up the rear brakes), and more wear and tear on the engine. Brake first, then downshift."


This is from Skip Barber's "Going Faster"

"What downshifting is really for.
We ask this basic question of every racing school class. The most frequent (and incorrect) answer is, "to help slow the car down." In a racecar with good, durable brakes (the majority of modern racecars), downshifting to help slow the car down is unnecessary. The brakes slow the car down. You downshift to get the car in the proper gear to exit the corner."


Now Russ Bentley has raced Indy cars, World Sports cars (including endurance) and is now a race instructor, Skip Barber should need no introduction, but the book I refer to has been written with the assistance of ten instructors from the Skip Barber Racing School.

Brakes slow the car, not the engine; unless your brakes are shot in which case you do not have a lot of choice, but unless you're Moss or Fangio you're not going to win like this.

Problems with Compression braking on the track

1. Its less effective than normal braking.

As Compression braking effects only the driven wheels it will have a major effect on the brake bias of the car; incorrect brake bias (or brake balance) can increase braking distances significantly. Even with 4WD cars the effect of engine braking is limited to the front/rear split of power distribution and will normally affect the brake bias negatively.

It is also not possible to accurately predict the level of Compression braking or modulate it once it has been applied, making accurate and controlled braking almost impossible.


2. It does not give ‘more’ braking force if you are already at the limit

This one is a common myth of Compression braking, that it will allow you to get more braking force for free. While in the distant past braking systems were not powerful enough to exceed the grip limit of tyres (and this is a long way in the past), modern braking systems are more than capable of exceeding the grip levels (measured in straight line braking as the slip percentage) of the tyres.

If you are already at the braking ‘threshold’ adding more braking force through compression braking is just going to exceed the slip percentage and lock the tyres.

Using the Ford GT example from above and assuming that the car was already braking at the tyres threshold (assume max 10% slip percentage for this example). If when the clutch is released (with the car at 50mph) the tyres are already using the full 10% slip in braking, the additional braking caused by compression braking (20mph vs. 50mph) will exceed the 10% max by a large margin, the rear wheels will lock, the tyres will flat spot, braking distance will actually increase and unless the car is totally straight the major rear bias will possibly cause a loss of control.


When to use Compression braking?
Obviously with road driving compression braking and its use is very much a case of personal preference; however on the track most instructors and drivers share the belief that the disadvantages more than outweigh the advantages (and some would argue that it has no advantages).

However should you find yourself in an older car (historic racing), suffering from brake fade or even brake failure then you have little choice but to use what ever method you can to slow the car.

As Skip Barber’s book says:

”In this case you certainly do use the downshift to slow the car down – but it’s a last resort”



I hope that the above is of use and interest and in the next few days I will use what I have outlined here to look at how Compression braking has been implemented in GT4.

Regards

Scaff
 
Interesting read on compression braking, definetly encourages me to learn to heal-toe when I downshift from now on.

BTW, I haven't had the time to read through the pages I missed (will do soon though), and I'm wondering what was the verdict of the prescense of brake lockup in GT4? Where I left off there was still some doubt as to how it was incorperated in the game.
 
KSaiyu
Interesting read on compression braking, definetly encourages me to learn to heal-toe when I downshift from now on.

BTW, I haven't had the time to read through the pages I missed (will do soon though), and I'm wondering what was the verdict of the prescense of brake lockup in GT4? Where I left off there was still some doubt as to how it was incorperated in the game.

Being honest the jury is still out on this one, some cars seem to model it to a small degree on certain circuits; but it is the most poorly implemented area of braking in GT4.

Turning off ASM does seem to reduce the level at which the ABS kicks in, but it does not seem to be possiable to completely remove it, one area that I hope is changed for GT5.

Regards

Scaff
 
well...the car will brake mora and the best if you reduce the pressure of the tyre...!!!

you can see it on example drag...all cars have a reduce pressure in the tyres for a better traction!
 
JmivR
well...the car will brake mora and the best if you reduce the pressure of the tyre...!!!

you can see it on example drag...all cars have a reduce pressure in the tyres for a better traction!

While reduced (or for that matter) increased tyre presures will have an effect on braking distances, they are minimal changes.

As with brake balance, you can find an optimum pressure for braking which will ensure you use all of the grip that a tyre can offer.

It is a similiar to drag racing in that tyre pressure is just one part of the equation, tyre compound and temp (which directly effects pressure) are far more significant.

The biggest problem with circuit racing (vs. drag racing) is that the optimum pressure for launch and braking is never the same as that required for cornering. With circuit racing you need to optimise pressure and temp to ensure that all tyres mainstain an optimum level of grip across the inside, middle and outside ofthe tyre for the duration of the race.

Drag racing allows for much more extreme settings (that require just as much skill to find and use) because of the significantly shorter running time.

Damn good point all the same.

Regards

Scaff
 
One thing that can effect the breaking force on a road car, is the fact that most are equiped with a force enhancer that uses the underpressure in the intake manifold.
This underpressure is much stronger if the engine is revving a bit, (say 2000-3000rpm). However on race/sports cars this "power brake" is rarly fitted, due to lessend feel in the brake, instead bigger brakes and callipers is used.

I work for a company that makes braking equpment for motorcykles, and my boss says that in the last 10-15 years the brakepad material have increased in friction coeficient with a remarkable amount. Probably the same for cars.
 
no i think it is just a brake power 'booster' so that the force you place on the brakes is increased by a system running off engine power. Again the main point is that is reduces the 'feel' you get through the brake pedal.
 
Its a method of adding assistance to to the braking system to allow for easier braking, anyone who has ever tried to apply full braking force to a non-servo assisted system will know just how much pedal pressure is required.

Its an easy way of getting around the whole brake cylinder size/compliance issue (have a look at this piece on "How Braking systems work in plain english" for more info on compliance), but as has been said it does reduce feel and your ability to modulate the level of force applied.

Additionally it does not realy affect what has been discussed on compression braking, as its not compression braking, but an aid to the standard braking system.

Rob is right that one of the main area of advancement in braking system efficency has been in the area of pad materials and disc manufacturing methods, however do remember that these will help in the areas of feel, modulation, initial bite and resistence to fade. You must always remember that as long as your existing braking system was up to the job they will not shorten stopping distances (and if fitted and not balanced can in some situations actually increase braking distances).

The compression braking in trucks is a different situation and is fitted not as many believe because truck brakes are not good enough. The brakes on most modern trucks are as effective as on most road cars, but they do suffer from fade much more quickly (have a look at sidebar 1 "Speed Vs. Heat" in the link above and it will quickly become clear why) and the assistance generated by compression braking here helps to reduce the rapid build up of brake fade. Remember trucks are rarely threshold braking, but it does explain why you see so much lock-up when watching truck racing.

Regards

Scaff
 
is this like mercs panic brake thing?. or just something they brought in because of the massive amounts of force needed for a disc brake rather then the normal amount for a drum.... (massive being an overstatement)

EDIT: what scaff said..lol
 
no the mercs emergency braking is a seperate thing. it monitors your application in relation to when you take your foot off the accelerator - and if it determines it is an emergency it goes to full brake force. works for ABS equipped cars because it was determined that most people don't apply enough pressure straight away in accident situations.
 
Ezz777
no the mercs emergency braking is a seperate thing. it monitors your application in relation to when you take your foot off the accelerator - and if it determines it is an emergency it goes to full brake force. works for ABS equipped cars because it was determined that most people don't apply enough pressure straight away in accident situations.

True to a degree, most people do not apply enough immediate braking force, but also tend to back off the pedal when the ABS kicks in.

The following is taken from the MB tech pages regarding Brake Assist, but is common to most manufacturers.

Brake Assist has been developed on the basis of Mercedes-Benz accident research which shows that although drivers press the brake pedal quickly in critical emergency braking situations, they do not apply sufficient force. Brake Assist is intended to provide effective support for the driver in such emergencies.

The best way to understand the system is to take a brief look at how today's brake systems work: the brake booster, which amplifies the pressure exerted by the driver's foot, consists of two chambers separated by a flexible diaphragm. When the brake system is not in use, there is a vacuum in both chambers. Pressing the brake pedal actuates a control valve which admits air to the rear chamber, thereby changing the pressure balance. Maximum booster power is delivered when full atmospheric pressure is attained in the rear chamber. By contrast, the hydraulic Brake Assist system fitted to the A-Class uses the ESP® pump rather than the brake booster to build up brake force.

Brake Assist uses a diaphragm travel sensor to detect emergency braking. This device monitors every movement of the diaphragm between the chambers and feeds the values measured to the BAS electronic control unit. Through continuous analysis of this data, the system's microprocessor is able to identify instantly any anomalous increase in the pedal actuation speed which is indicative of emergency braking. Having identified such a situation, the control unit triggers a solenoid valve which instantly feeds air into the rear chamber of the brake booster, thereby building up the full braking pressure. Even when automatic emergency braking is under way, the wheels do not lock because the proven ABS anti-lock braking system regulates the braking force precisely to allow the optimum degree of slip so that the vehicle remains steerable. When the driver removes his/her foot from the brake pedal, a special switch closes the solenoid valve and automatically turns the emergency braking assistance off again.



Most manufacturers system work on the speed at which the brake pedal in used and braking assistance kicks in above a certain speed of application, a new Merc system actually uses the cruise control radar system to detect the distance to the car in front and the closing speed and start to set the car up for emergancy braking and a possiable accident in advance. This system is scheduled for use in a number of new models in the near future.

Regards

Scaff
 
A great example of engineers making a great system to help crap users (in this case ABS) then finding that dopey people don't know how make best use of it - so then creating a system which takes into account useless people.

hey, this is fun - Sp33 asks a question - i provide a quick response, albeit reasonably accurate - but admittedly half-arsed, then Scaff unloads with a science journal. The dude is totally googled up.

Next question!
 
lol, BMW did this in their new 3 series. It measures how fast you take your foot off the gas and beefs up the brake pedal so its ready to be mashed. The problem was, according to Wheels magazine, is that when going through a set of corners "mildly spirited", theyd hit the brakes and almost headbutt the windscreen beacause of the massive braking power the beemer puts to its pedal when they take their foot off the accelerator pedal to quick...

Sounds like youd have to get use to driving these things.... Unless you want two black eyes and a bump on the noggin :P
 
As promised here are my test results regarding the implementation of Compression braking in GT4, I would strongly recommend reading the post on real world compression braking as a background to this.

Many people have complained that GT4 has either no or very poorly recreated Compression braking and I thought that I would put this to the test. I will be using a Toyota Celica SS-II in this test as I can compare the GT4 results with my current company car (Toyota Celica T-sport) as they use the same engine and the gear ratios should be similar.


Straight line Compression braking
The first set of tests was to look at how well (if at all) Compression braking has been recreated in GT4, straight line, in-gear compression braking has the advantages of being easy to recreate in the real world and easy to measure. It also has the advantage that the GT4 figures can be converted to rough ‘mph per 1000 rpm’ figures and these compared to figures calculated for my car.

The GT4 figures were obtained by simply holding a set speed in a set gear and then releasing the throttle fully, the time to decelerate to a certain speed was then measured along with the associated engine speed. The results were as follows.

1st Gear
35mph (7,400rpm) to 25mph (5,200rpm) = 3.5 secs
35mph (7,400rpm) to 15mph (3,000rpm) = 7.7 secs

2nd gear
55mph (7,500rpm) to 45mph (6,000rpm) = 4.5 secs
55mph (7,500rpm) to 35mph (4,600rpm) = 8.9 secs
35mph (4,600rpm) to 25mph (3,250rpm) = 6.2 secs

3rd gear
65mph (6,400rpm) to 55mph (5,400rpm) = 5.5 secs
65mph (6,400rpm) to 45mph (4,400rpm) = 11.4 secs
65mph (6,400rpm) to 35mph (3,400rpm) = 19.2 secs

As can be clearly seen from the figures above Compression braking clearly is modelled in GT4, and with a reasonable level of accuracy in how it works. Real world Compression braking is more effective the higher the initial engine speed and this is clearly shown in the GT4 results above when you look at the 1st and 2nd gear figures for 35mph to 25mph.

Next the question to be addressed is do they reflect the real world in any way, fortunately I have access to some private roads near my house and set about recreating the 3rd gear tests in my actual car. Now you should always bear in mind that getting the exact times out of GT4 for these kinds of tests is not an exact science and neither is it easy to get the accurate times for the real world. However the results are quite interesting.

3rd Gear
65 to 55mph – GT4 5.5/Real world 5
65 to 45mph – GT4 11.4/Real world 12
65 to 35mph GT4 19.2/Real world 20

Quite clearly the level of straight line, in-gear compression braking for the Celica SS-II/T-sport is recreated to a level of accuracy that is more than acceptable. However as with all my tests this is not conclusive, just representative of one car; it does however demonstrate that a good attempt has been made to implement Compression braking in GT4.

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ABOVE REAL WORLD TEST WAS CARRIED OUT ON A PRIVATE ROAD AND IN NO WAY SHOULD YOU ATTEMPT TO CARRY OUT THE SAME OR SIMILAR TESTS ON PUBLIC ROADS – BE SMART PLEASE


Compression braking on a steep slope
Another method of clearly seeing compresion braking in effect in GT4 (although not one that can be easily compared with real world figures) is to take a car to the Citta d'Aria street circuit. Run it in either direction and when you get to one of the steep downhill sections just brake and change down to first or second gear, keep your finger/foot off the brakes and throttle.

You will easily be able to 'drive' down the steep city streets using just the engine compression to brake and maintain speed, just as in a real world situation, you are more likely to need the throttle than the brakes to maintain a consistent speed.

Its not quick (but then its not meant to be) but it does prove the point.


Compression Braking during downshifts
Now most GT4 players will not have attempted any of the above when they discuss Compression braking, as most braking will be carried out in conjunction with a down-shift. It is this area that I believe has given rise to the issues people have with Compression braking in GT4.

The test again is with the Toyota Celica SS-II, however no attempt will be made to compare these results with the real world, nor are any needed. It is perfectly possible to take the figures from above and use them to calculate ‘MPH per 1000rpm’ figures and compare them to the real figures for the Celica and use these to judge the test results. I was not able to find published real world ‘MPH per 1000rpm’ figures for the Celica T-sport, but they are simple enough to calculate from published gear ratios, etc.

1st gear
GT4 = 4.73 MPH per 1,000rpm
Real = 4.99 MPH per 1,000rpm

2nd
GT4 = 7.3 MPH per 1,000rpm
Real = 7.7 MPH per 1,000rpm

3rd
GT4 = 10.16 MPH per 1,000rpm
Real = 10.69 MPH per 1,000rpm

Given the difficultly of reading the rpm figure with 100% accuracy in GT4 these figures are close enough to be used and show that the modelling of the car and ratios in GT4 is very accurate indeed.

For the test I used the first hairpin at Tsukuba and braked down to a range of different speeds. Once the speed was reached (to within a few mph) I would come off the brakes totally and then change down to 2nd gear. I was looking for the engine speed that the throttle blip (as done automatically by the game – its heel and toe) gave after the change was finished. Remember that in second gear you are looking at 7.3MPH per 1,000rpm.

The car/engine speed before braking was approx 85mph in 4th gear (5,800rpm) which give a good speed drop and a change of two gears.

The results are as follows

Brake to 37mph (2nd gear)
Throttle blipped to approx 5,000rpm which is 36.5mph (GT4) / 38.5mph (Real)

Brake to 29mph (2nd gear)
Throttle blipped to approx 3,900rpm which is 28.47mph (GT4) / 30.03mph (Real)

Brake to 15mph (2nd gear)
Throttle blipped to approx 2,000rpm which is 14.6mph (GT4) / 15.4mph (Real)


What this demonstrates is that GT4 (for the Celica at least) performs almost perfect rev matches when heel and toeing, accuracy that I would love to be able to do myself in the Real world. The biggest problem for me with this is that no one in the real world is that consistent or accurate (not for every downshift they ever do).

The upshot is that even if GT4 did recreate Compression braking with 100% accuracy most people would never experience it because of the perfect rev-matching with every down-shift.

My conclusion with regard to this is that GT4 does seem to recreate Compression braking in a manner that is accurate enough for the game, but we will almost never experience it because of the heel and toe downshifts matching the engine speed to the road speed with almost complete perfection.

Regards

Scaff
 
Whoah... nice work!

so it's not my imagination that it's easier to slow down on close-ratio trannies.

Great work.
 
Thanks for the feedback guys, make it worth the effort.

I just get a bit anoyed with people staing things as fact that they do not appear to have thought about or even tested. Not being one to start something I can't finish I always try to test in out in detail, force people to think about it and in generally sinks in (guess thats just the teacher in me).

The whole compression braking one started when someone posted saying that GT4 had not modelled compression braking at all; a statement that is so far beyond daft its hard to believe.

I mean if GT4 had not modelled compression braking at all then when you released the throttle the only thing slowing the car down would be the tyres rolling resistance and aero drag, take a hell of a long time to slow down in that manner. It was a statement that just had no thought behind it at all, and I can't stand lazy thinking like that, GT4 clearly had compression braking modelled, the real questions were, how well was in modelled and why did people seem to think it was not or poorly modelled.

Hopefully I have answered both of these in the only way I know how.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
I just get a bit anoyed with people staing things as fact that they do not appear to have thought about or even tested. Not being one to start something I can't finish I always try to test in out in detail, force people to think about it and in generally sinks in (guess thats just the teacher in me).

Goodness gracious, what are you doing on internet forums - i thought these were for nuffbags spreading misinformation... Seriously, top job. If only everyone here had the same ideals.

Onto the compression braking modeling in GT4 - one thing i did notice was that at high revs in cars with high stage turbos - some cars do tend to hold their speed after lifting the throttle for a little while (inititially not showing signs of comp braking) but then tend to start slowing down. Perhaps this is GT4 modelling the turbos staying pressurised after throttle lifts.
 
Ezz777
Goodness gracious, what are you doing on internet forums - i thought these were for nuffbags spreading misinformation... Seriously, top job. If only everyone here had the same ideals.

Onto the compression braking modeling in GT4 - one thing i did notice was that at high revs in cars with high stage turbos - some cars do tend to hold their speed after lifting the throttle for a little while (inititially not showing signs of comp braking) but then tend to start slowing down. Perhaps this is GT4 modelling the turbos staying pressurised after throttle lifts.

Just as real cars do. One of the things I forgot to mention in my piece above (and you have just reminded me about). It can be caused by a number of things, but they all have one thing in common; objects in motion will want to stay in motion (Newton's 1st law in practice) as a result they will not start to slow immediatly.

Generally GT4 does not model the slight lag that all cars have from when you lift fully off the throttle to when compression braking starts. The delay actually seems slightly shorter in GT4 than in reality (well for the Celica T-sport anyway).

Not something that I could (or would try) to measure, but it certainly feels than with in-gear compression braking GT4 cuts in quicker than in reality.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
Not something that I could (or would try) to measure, but it certainly feels than with in-gear compression braking GT4 cuts in quicker than in reality.

I am hoping you are talking about a car with stock fly wheel, because an engine with a lighter (racing) fly wheel will have a less momentum and therefore start slowing down quicker.
 
Ezz777
I am hoping you are talking about a car with stock fly wheel, because an engine with a lighter (racing) fly wheel will have a less momentum and therefore start slowing down quicker.

Quite right, I was refering to my (real) Celica T-sport which has a stock fly wheel (company car and I don't think they would take too kindly to me changing the fly wheel) compared to the Celica SS-II in GT4 which was used in the tests above, again totally stock.

Regards

Scaff
 
Scaff
PLEASE NOTE THAT THE ABOVE REAL WORLD TEST WAS CARRIED OUT ON A PRIVATE ROAD AND IN NO WAY SHOULD YOU ATTEMPT TO CARRY OUT THE SAME OR SIMILAR TESTS ON PUBLIC ROADS – BE SMART PLEASE

Scaff


You could hear our leetle brains churning, couldn't you?? :)


Great posts, Scaff. I've been held up by RL the last couple months, but I'm ready to get back to GT4, and more importantly, the GT4 and Brakes thread!

FIDO
 
FIDO69
You could hear our leetle brains churning, couldn't you?? :)


Great posts, Scaff. I've been held up by RL the last couple months, but I'm ready to get back to GT4, and more importantly, the GT4 and Brakes thread!

FIDO

Fido

I wondered what had happened to you, welcome back, you got a bit of catching up to do, as you can see I've been very busy.

Regards

Scaff
 
The following strictly speaking have nothing to do with braking, but are useful and I promised Kent that I would put them up here and I have used them in the compression braking section of this thread).

I will be using my Celica T-sport/SS-II as an example.

Calculating MPH per 1,000 rpm from Gear ratios

First you need to get the correct wheel and tyre diameter from the driver wheels tyre size (only the driven wheel needs to be calculated).

Use the following Formula

diameter = Width (mm) * sidewall height (%) / 25.4 * 2 + wheel diameter

For example 205/45R-17

205 * 0.45 / 25.4 * 2 + 17 = 24.26"

This information can be difficult to get for some cars in GT4 as the game does not (that I have found) provide it, google is your friend here.

We can now calculate the MPH per 1,000 rpm for each gear using the foloowing formula

MPH per 1,000RPM = tire diameter / 336 * 1,000 / (gear ratio * final drive)

The Celica gear ratios and Final drive are as follows

1st 3.17
2nd 2.05
3rd 1.48
4th 1.17
5th 0.92
6th 0.82

Final Drive 4.53

So if we use our formula to calculate the MPH per 1,000 rpm for 1st gear we get

24.26 / 336 * 1,000 / (3.17 * 4.53) = 5 mph per 1,000rpm

Using the same formula for the rest of the gears we get

1st - 5 mph per 1,000rpm
2nd - 7.78 mph per 1,000rpm
3rd - 10.77 mph per 1,000rpm
4th - 13.62 mph per 1,000rpm
5th - 17.33 mph per 1,000rpm
6th - 19.44 mph per 1,000rpm

You will get slight differences if you round the tyre diameter before putting it in the calculation (as I have done above but not in my earlier posts on compression braking) I rounded the tyre diameter to 2 points of decimal and the gear ratio * final drive to four places of decimal. This has been done simply for clarity during these examples and is not something I would personally do.

I hope that the above will help people to understand the relationship between the final drive/axle ratio and the gear ratios and how they work together, also how the tyre diameter has a major impact on gearing. Now you can smile smuggly at all the people who just wack big rims on without any knowledge of how it effects rolling radius and the cars gearing.

Any questions please do ask.

Regards

Scaff
 
Calculating speed per 1000rpm in that manner will give you a slight error.
Because the tyre isn't pefectly round. It is flattend on contact with the ground due to car/wehicle weight.

The error is small,yet important. Probably between 3-6%.

Example: 500cc motorcykle. The onboard telemetry reported a topspeed of 353kph/219mph. The techies in the team knew that the bike wasn't THAT fast.
However, the speed was recorded in a very fast long curve. A radar measured the speed to be only 320+ (only ;) ). They finaly figured it out, the bike had been leaning in the curve, thus rested on an area of the tire that had a smaller diameter.
This made the engine rev higher, indicating a higher speed.

Maybe the tire manufacturer has the correct "rolling diameter" , ask them.
 
Rob the Fiend
Calculating speed per 1000rpm in that manner will give you a slight error.
Because the tyre isn't pefectly round. It is flattend on contact with the ground due to car/wehicle weight.

The error is small,yet important. Probably between 3-6%.

Example: 500cc motorcykle. The onboard telemetry reported a topspeed of 353kph/219mph. The techies in the team knew that the bike wasn't THAT fast.
However, the speed was recorded in a very fast long curve. A radar measured the speed to be only 320+ (only ;) ). They finaly figured it out, the bike had been leaning in the curve, thus rested on an area of the tire that had a smaller diameter.
This made the engine rev higher, indicating a higher speed.

Maybe the tire manufacturer has the correct "rolling diameter" , ask them.

Quite true, but the formula I have given are 'industry standards' for calculating MPH per 1,000rpm.

They are more than acurate enough for most purposes of use, a wide range of factors would also effect them in the same way; such as tyre pressure and temperature, even tyre wear. Trying to include these into a formula that can be used in a quick and convienient way would require a specific computer model to be written to account for how these factors change with speed, air pressure and temp (both ambient and tyre), etc. All of which would affect the overall tyre diameter.

The only truely accurate way of measuring a vehicles speed is in the real world and using race-spec GPS data logging equipment, very expensive and you still hit the same problems as the results are only representative of the exact conditions when you ran them, 10 minutes later the air temp could have dropped and you would get different results.

Car and Bike speedos are no use at all for these purposes as in Europe they are only required by law to read within 10% (and only over-read), I have a portiable GPS unit that I use (its accurate to within 1mph) and that clearly shows the inacuracies of car speedos.

Additionally, as speed increases you will start to encounter limiting factors from aero drag, for example according to gearing calculations alone a Celica T-sport with a redline of 8,200 rpm would be capable of a v-max of 159 mph. However drag will drop that by a good 10 mph.

The purpose of MPH per 1,000rpm is not to give 100% accurate figures (the rounding issue on the decimal ensures that), but to provide a real-world picture of how changes to gear ratios, final drive ratios and tyre diameters will effect a cars performance.

I'm not trying to flame you here, you have raised a valid point and I just wanted to clarify it, but I feel you may be trying to read more into the MPH per 1,000 rpm figures and formula than was ever intended for them.

Regards

Scaff
 
I guess the key is that the diameter of a motorcycle wheel changes due to the lean of the bike changes by that 3-6% - hence the change in measured speed. I would hope that there would not be a significant change in a car tyres' diameter as this would indicate a weak sidewall - there are obvious exceptions (eg a drag car's rear tyres).
 
Yeah, imagine the formula that takes into account all factors that you wrote.
Probably look like something out of a comic book.

And i agree with you, keep all formulas simple.

Any way, one thing that mph@1000rpm is good for is how to tune your gearbox.
So that you hit a good rpm after each shift, much to win in that.
Both in games and RL.

I have a question for Scaff, would it be possible to test if there is any difference in tyre wear (sp?) from fitting race brakes or running standard, by doing a endurance race in B-spec mode and see if there is any difference in number of laps between pit stops? I mean let the tyres wear down so much that the car do a stop by itself.
 
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