Rev matching upshifts - will it stay in the final release?

Am I the only one who is annoyed by the rev-matched upshifts?

Take an S2000 for example. You launch the car from the starting line, rip through first gear, shift at redline, and.... nothing. You coast for a good 2 1/2 seconds while the RPM's drop down to match the next gear, and then it resumes acceleration, albeit without the tiniest upset in the drivetrain. The only way you will spin in 2nd gear is if you have enough power to then overcome the traction you have in 2nd gear.

In real life, you run up through 1st gear, stab the clutch, row the shifter into second gear, and stab the gas again as you release the clutch. This quick mechanical change into the next gear only allows the RPM's to drop about 750 RPM or so. So in this case, you release the clutch with the RPM's at, say, 8,000 RPM, when infact in 2nd gear at that speed you should be at 6,000 RPM. This results in a solid chirp of the tires, a kick in the butt, and two small patches of rubber being laid down as you continue your sprint up through the gears. In real life, just about any manual transmission car with a healthy clutch can get a tiny bit of wheel spin in 2nd gear, or even 3rd gear, because of speed of the flywheel spinning giving the drivetrain a kick.

The upside of this real-life scenario over the GT4 style shift is that you can get into the next gear and resume accelerating sooner, and also, the inertia of the flywheel spinning at 8,000 RPM translates into a kick of energy sent to the back wheels upon completion of the shift. The downside to this is that you upset the drivetrain, and if you were to upshift in a corner while accelerating, you could easily enduce oversteer when the rear tires broke free. In real life, this is a big issue to deal with.

These events change when you decide to replace the flywheel (less mass = less inertia to break the tires free on a non-rev-matched shift), and when you change the clutch (the clutch grabs firmly, and instead of the revs sliding down to match the drivetrain speed, they snap down, more directly).

How to simulate this though? How do you allow the driver to shift for both maximum smoothness, or maximum acceleration?

Could you make the shift button act as the clutch also? Press in the button, hold it, and then release it to pop the clutch in the next gear? So you run up from 1st to 2nd gear, hit the button as fast as possible for quick shift, and a loud bark from the tires. Hit the first corner, upshift from 2nd to 3rd as you pass the apex, and this time hold the button for a second or two to let the revs drop and match, to prevent a jolt to the rear wheels? If you do this, do you make the 'shift' button automatically disable the throttle, or does the throttle button remain active so that you have to 'lift' in order to shift? Are both available, and the method changes when the car is equipped with a sequential gear box vs. a conventional gated tranny?

any others feel this way?

You're not the only one every Gran turismo game have had that rev-matched clutchless shifting and I'm just hoping GT5 will have clutch as an option. I understand why they've left clutch totally out because most people out there playing Gran turismos aren't experts in gaming and/or racing and it's not exactly easy to drive with joypad if you have to hassle with the clutch..

Yes, it's a good point that has been discussed before. Looks like we'll have to wait for GT5 to have that as an option, and who knows Logitech will then also release a Driving Force MAX wheel with a clutch pedal. Still, keeping the shift button pressed is a good idea that could definitely work.

nothing like taking 8 seconds to hit 60mph in an S2000...

Nothing like replacing your clutch every two months.

Btw, I took the S2000 to the track and with street tires, no assists and manual transmission I manage 0-60mph in about 7.1 seconds on my best attempt. That is one second off its quoted 6.0 seconds, so I admit GT's shifting seems a bit slow. But it's not 8 seconds either ...

Just hybrid every car with the SL55 AMG transmission and be happy

No, but seriously, I don't think it's a major problem...maybe if they just had the revs go down to peak torque all the time, that would work nicely. Just using a manual tranny at all is enough to keep me busy right now.

just never shift back down to 1st. do every corner at 2nd or 3rd. screw 1st gear

Originally posted by Greyout
Am I the only one who is annoyed by the rev-matched upshifts?

How to simulate this though? How do you allow the driver to shift for both maximum smoothness, or maximum acceleration?

Could you make the shift button act as the clutch also? Press in the button, hold it, and then release it to pop the clutch in the next gear? So you run up from 1st to 2nd gear, hit the button as fast as possible for quick shift, and a loud bark from the tires. Hit the first corner, upshift from 2nd to 3rd as you pass the apex, and this time hold the button for a second or two to let the revs drop and match, to prevent a jolt to the rear wheels? If you do this, do you make the 'shift' button automatically disable the throttle, or does the throttle button remain active so that you have to 'lift' in order to shift? Are both available, and the method changes when the car is equipped with a sequential gear box vs. a conventional gated tranny?

any others feel this way?

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This is a great IDEA! I hope the designers are award of this. It would make driving a manual transmission closer to what you can do with them in real life. Then we'd have to buy new clutches to replace how rough we are with the clutch.

You were talking about cornering and doing an upshift with a high rev engagment to get wheel spin, I don't know about anyone else but I've never approached it that why, I just do a clutch kick in the same gear to get the wheel spin. Lets say I'm in second gear cornering and I want to get that jolt to my wheels, I just kick in the clutch while still at WOT and when my revs go up I release the clutch and I get my jolt this way rather than upshifting.

I don't mean upshifting in a corner to GET wheel spin, I mean that upshifting in a corner normally presents a RISK of wheel spin.

Greyout

I don't mean upshifting in a corner to GET wheel spin, I mean that upshifting in a corner normally presents a RISK of wheel spin.

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That entirely depends on how rough you're shifting. That "RISK" is entirely dependent on right-foot-input. Up-shifting in the middle of a corner is only bad because lifting to shift upsets weight transfer. Up-shifting while heading out of a corner shouldn't be any big issue at all. If you're that worried about it, short-shift like the real world and you'll be fine.

RoadBeef

That entirely depends on how rough you're shifting. That "RISK" is entirely dependent on right-foot-input. Up-shifting in the middle of a corner is only bad because lifting to shift upsets weight transfer. Up-shifting while heading out of a corner shouldn't be any big issue at all. If you're that worried about it, short-shift like the real world and you'll be fine.

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THATS JUST IT! YOU CAN'T!

in real life, you could bang away a quick shift and not even lift your foot off the gas. in GT, it will cut the throttle, let the revs free-spin down to match the speed of the next gear, and then engage the gear.

Also, when you do attempt a lightning fast shift in real life, the difference in speed between the engine and the wheels causes the drivetrain to get a jolt - the weight of the flywheel transmits energy into the driveshaft, and it gives a sudden, quick force to the tires.

try this in real life: Go around a corner in the wet, apply throttle at the apex, and then shift as fast as you can while you are cornering - regardless of your throttle positon. You will get passed by your own taillights.
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Greyout

in real life, you could bang away a quick shift and not even lift your foot off the gas.

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This driving method, better knows as "powershifting," is the #1 cause to premature transmission failure.

You're right, the game would be more realistic if this type of speed shifting was allowed. However, this "limitation" as you make it out to be was probably chosen as a shifting system benchmark for GT4 because KY wanted to teach all of his loyal gamers out there the correct way to shift.

You can talk all day how a powershift is faster than a normal, rev-matched shift, and you're right. In almost every case, it is faster. But it is also incredibly destructive to the gearbox, and in a game such as GT4, the level of automotive wearing detail can only go so far. If power shifting were allowed in GT4, or GT4 for that matter, there would be no doubt in my mind that people would complain, wondering why their clutches weren't wearing out, or why the gear teeth weren't getting torn off.. therefore, it is my belief that KY decided to err on the side of more realism (albeit not perfect realism... PS3 and GT5 ought to bring that).

try this in real life: Go around a corner in the wet, apply throttle at the apex, and then shift as fast as you can while you are cornering - regardless of your throttle positon. You will get passed by your own taillights.

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Assuming that this order is based in a rear wheel driven car with enough power to spin the rear wheels in the wet, again I will tell you that this depends entirely upon how much throttle is given. If you are talking full throttle, it is very obvious that the car will want to swap ends.

And this is only in the wet. Your point has no grounds for argument on any dry track. Full throttle, if the driver is actually doing it right, should have been applied well before the apex.

And now that I've read your post again, I think you are misunderstanding me. When I said "Up-shifting while heading out of a corner shouldn't be a big deal," I did not mean power-shifting out of a corner. Believe it or not, it is possible to shift very quickly and remain smooth at the same time.

let me explain this again:

engaging the clutch at an RPM other then the RPM that matches that speed for the given gear causes a sudden jolt to the drive wheels. If you are cornering at 10/10ths, and let the clutch grab a flywheel thats not rev-matched, you're going to break the tires loose. It has nothing to do with having enough power.

Again, power has nothing to do with it. This is why a 1984 Toyota celica with 108hp can break traction in 3rd gear - near redline in 2nd, shift into 3rd, release clutch - the spinning mass of the engine & flywheel grab the drivetrain, and give it a kick.

Simply shifting into the next gear and releasing the clutch before the rev's drop to match is not hard on a transmission. Rev matching an upshift would only happen on a routine sunday drive through the park, or on your way to work. Any form of performnce driving involves shifting into the next gear with haste. In Gran Turismo, the speed at which you can shift is governed by the weight of the flywheel, which is simply and totally inaccurate.

Enough of the bickering.

I agree that the gear changes in GT suck. Ignoring how bad it is, in RL i change gear in a blink to get to cruising speeds quicker (necessary in a 3 cyl 1.0l powered car). I can force a lovely kick whilst engaging 2nd in my Vaux Corsa, I would love to be able to do this in a Corsa in GT4.