Why did PD take so long?

risuku13

I believe they had to recreate the game engine, etc. (?)

Click to expand...

yes, we already talked about all that, especially the etc. part haha...

Because they are bad prioritisers?

What use are 200 perfect looking cars with only so few tracks and hardly any events to race them in?

Shadows.

DanDiplo

It's sad to read some of the comments in this thread that are obviously from a bunch of children who haven't the slightest clue what is involved in software design.

First, you need to negotiate with all the car manufactures to license the vehicles and get the rights. Then you need to negotiate with all the race circuits and acquire the rights. Then you need to get people like Jeff Gordon on-board and acquire the NASCAR license. Then you need to negotiate with Top Gear, Red Bull and all the different 3rd parties whose products make up the game. Then you need to license all the music from all the different artists.

Then you need to make highly detailed 3D models of interiors and exteriors of over 200 cars. These models are probably more detailed then anything seen on a console before. That means photographers dispatched around the world to take thousands of photos and then these need to translated into 3D models, textures, height maps etc.

Then you need to model all the tracks, measure them, aquire GPS data, drive them in real life, consult with real-life race drivers about how they "feel" etc.

Then you need to develop a propriety 3D engine capable of running at 1080p at 60 FPS with up to 16 high-polygon cars in it and with dynamic lighting and weather effects. And do this all within the very limited memory of the PS3.

Then you need to develop a complex physics engine and squeeze that into the limited PS3 memory.

Then you need to develop net-code from scratch, which is massively difficult.

Then you need to develop the UI.

Then you need to add support for multiple control devices.

Then you need to test it, re-test it and test it again. Then fix any bugs. And every bug and change you make needs to go through change-control and be thoroughly tested to ensure no regressions creep in.

And that's just scratching the surface of what is involved...

Click to expand...

You forgot to say they do most of this simulataneously. Anyway, I'm probably one of the few people are suprised how much they have done in that time frame.

Since GT4 released in December 28, 2004, they have released these games.

Tourist Trophy (PS2) - February 2, 2006
Gran Turismo HD (PS3) - December 24, 2006
Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (PS3) - December 13, 2007
Gran Turismo (PSP) - October 1, 2009
Gran Turismo 5 (PS3) - November 24, 2010

They only really started working on GT5 after Tourist Trophy on the PS2. That gives 4 and half years of development time. However they also had to work on a PSP version, which took them quite some time to make the game run on the system well at 60FPS. They also made GT5 Prologue for us fans and updated it 3 times to try and work on getting GT5 up to a high standard. They added weather effects which most of us didn't expect and dynamic day and night cycles. This was helped due to working on the PSP GT version and getting to learn how to optimize for low memory devices. Then they finally released the game everyone was waiting for, GT5.

People on here wanted PD to release it even if it is unfinished and then to update it, and that is what they did. Then we have people who are unhappy for them doing just that. They are trying to solve some of the grinding issues with seasonal events, yet people still aren't happy for either the events being too hard or easy. This team has done all this with about 110 employees. I wouldn't be suprised if they have been working close to day and night for the last 5 years.

Then people praise how Turn 10 make games so quick and call PD lazy or slow. Here are the release dates for all games made by Turn 10.


Forza Motorsport (Xbox) - May 3, 2005
Forza Motorsport 2 (Xbox 360) - May 29, 2007
Forza Motorsport 3 (Xbox 360) - October 22, 2009

They had just over 4 years to get to the stage of Forza 3 with staff levels peaking at just over 300. They only had to work on one platform after the last game they worked on the Xbox, Forza 1. In a similar amount of development time to GT5, if not more they came up with Forza 3. They also built on top of previous games code and physics engine, while most of GT5 code is brand new.

I think the question is what have Turn 10 been doing all this time? With more than twice as much staff and as much time as PD with only platform to deal with they have come up with Forza 3. I can see they spent most of the time on the livery editor, tuning and auction house but they are missing a lot on the driving aspects in the game. Also the track modelling and car modelling may have to be redone for the next-generation while PD have many assets for the future. PD have got most of the fundamentals right and got the steady platform to build upon. Forza 4 will show if Turn 10 has catched up on many features GT5 has while retaining some of its advantages.

If you think I'm talking crap about PD working fast relatively to the competition, then you will see in evidence how good a game GT is on the next-generation consoles in a few years time. GT5 is only the beginning and the future seems very bright. PD are working as hard as possible and very quickly to while delivering games that are very good value for money. They are one of yhe most talented development teams in the industry, if not the best.

Finally I don't get why people say they didn't get $60 worth from GT5, then I wonder what the same people will say about games such as Shift, Dirt and F1 games. They don't have 200 cars combined let alone having the option for 800 standards to be increased to premium quality. I do think though the next GT game will only have about 400-500 cars.

I skipped a few posts near the end, so if I'm repeating something already said, I apologize.

Something people really need to understand is that 3D modeling is nothing. Well, for professionals at least. In any simulation, be it cars or planes, the amount of time spent on the external 3D model is tiny.

This is why you guys are so confused about the time scale. As someone showed, they could whip up a detailed 3D external model by themselves in a few weeks.

But now add interiors. Interiors are an order of magnitude more complicated to model than exteriors. So that's a good chunk of time.

Maybe about 1/3 of total dev time on total 3D modeling, or thereabouts.

The rest of the time is split between research, physics parametars and damage modeling. That is grueling exhaustive work which takes countless hours of testing and tweaking.

Most sims will use a universal physics engine which then works from parameters plugged in for each vehicle (car/plane/whatever). And the more accurate the sim, the more variables, and the more complex it is and time it takes. Particularly as tweaking one value can screw up other result down the line and you need to find the balance to get it within a few % of the numbers of the real thing.

It's nowhere near as easy as most people think.

And that's just for making a car look and drive right. Now add in damage modeling, and online play, and tracks, and 3D, and...... it goes on and on.


Couple other things I'd like to mention - at the time, we all thought GT1 was "pushing the PS1", but then 2 came out and looked better and was much larger in scope. Then we thought that GT3 was hitting the limits of the PS2, then 4 came out and revealed that so much more was clearly left. I see no reason to beleive it is any different here. Especially now that Sony can update the units online, OS and driver tweaks can free up more power for games (like putting on a more efficient filter or muffler), and code tweaks and cleanup can lead to more efficient execution of the game engine, as well as more PS3 dev experience can allow them to tune things even more.

That doesn't mean we will see GT6 on PS3. But.... there's really nothing to say we won't see major improvements over time. Certainly more content to keep us going at least. (content which will impinge unpon GT6 development, but that's the way it is - I'd rather the extra content now, personally)


Also, what is all this "GT OS" talk? Is it just a mistranslation? The PS3 is basically a computer. It runs the OS in the background. It's what tells it how to run applications (games), and allows them to interact with the hardware. It's also why we can hit the menu button at any time. There is a game engine for GT5, but not it's own OS (if it were, it would reboot the unit, boot to the BD, and not allow the PS3 button on the DS3 to bring up the live PS3 menu like it does).

Work expands to fill the amount of time allowed. Give a developer two years to make a game and they'll bust their butts to get it done. Let them know that deadlines are nothing but non-binding suggestions, and they'll putz around for six years and it still won't be finished.

DrkPhnyx

I skipped a few posts near the end, so if I'm repeating something already said, I apologize.

Something people really need to understand is that 3D modeling is nothing. Well, for professionals at least. In any simulation, be it cars or planes, the amount of time spent on the external 3D model is tiny.

This is why you guys are so confused about the time scale. As someone showed, they could whip up a detailed 3D external model by themselves in a few weeks.

But now add interiors. Interiors are an order of magnitude more complicated to model than exteriors. So that's a good chunk of time.

Maybe about 1/3 of total dev time on total 3D modeling, or thereabouts.

The rest of the time is split between research, physics parametars and damage modeling. That is grueling exhaustive work which takes countless hours of testing and tweaking.

Most sims will use a universal physics engine which then works from parameters plugged in for each vehicle (car/plane/whatever). And the more accurate the sim, the more variables, and the more complex it is and time it takes. Particularly as tweaking one value can screw up other result down the line and you need to find the balance to get it within a few % of the numbers of the real thing.

It's nowhere near as easy as most people think.

And that's just for making a car look and drive right. Now add in damage modeling, and online play, and tracks, and 3D, and...... it goes on and on.


Couple other things I'd like to mention - at the time, we all thought GT1 was "pushing the PS1", but then 2 came out and looked better and was much larger in scope. Then we thought that GT3 was hitting the limits of the PS2, then 4 came out and revealed that so much more was clearly left. I see no reason to beleive it is any different here. Especially now that Sony can update the units online, OS and driver tweaks can free up more power for games (like putting on a more efficient filter or muffler), and code tweaks and cleanup can lead to more efficient execution of the game engine, as well as more PS3 dev experience can allow them to tune things even more.

That doesn't mean we will see GT6 on PS3. But.... there's really nothing to say we won't see major improvements over time. Certainly more content to keep us going at least. (content which will impinge unpon GT6 development, but that's the way it is - I'd rather the extra content now, personally)


Also, what is all this "GT OS" talk? Is it just a mistranslation? The PS3 is basically a computer. It runs the OS in the background. It's what tells it how to run applications (games), and allows them to interact with the hardware. It's also why we can hit the menu button at any time. There is a game engine for GT5, but not it's own OS (if it were, it would reboot the unit, boot to the BD, and not allow the PS3 button on the DS3 to bring up the live PS3 menu like it does).

Click to expand...

Each Premium car takes about 6 months to model by one persion onb the PD team. People are mistaking these car models to be similar to other games car models. They are much more in detail and also recreate the back seats, floor and the underfloor of the car as well a bit of the engine bay. The exterior is also modelled at much higher detail than any game out. Zoom in and look at the lights for example. These models are more or less future proof unlike other games.

http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FERRARI_330P4-67-_01.jpg

http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FORD_Ford_GT40markIVRaceCar_011.jpg

saidur_ali

Each Premium car takes about 6 months to model by one persion onb the PD team. People are mistaking these car models to be similar to other games car models. They are much more in detail and also recreate the back seats, floor and the underfloor of the car as well a bit of the engine bay. The exterior is also modelled at much higher detail than any game out. Zoom in and look at the lights for example. These models are more or less future proof unlike other games.

http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FERRARI_330P4-67-_01.jpg

http://www.gtpla.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/FORD_Ford_GT40markIVRaceCar_011.jpg

Click to expand...

Which only furthers what I was saying. Cool pics.

Didn't they also work on Tourist Trophy and GT PSP during that five year time span?

And isn't working on the PS3 more complicated than the Xbox?

People think that PD are some magical wizards that can make the PS3 do anything they want.

So far only Naughty Dog can do that.

Insanely detailed cars, 800 additional cars to add (albeit lower quality), best tracks in video game history, rain effects, show effects, amazingly precise physics, online mode (unlike ever seen before in the series), 190+ songs, course maker, etc. I think it makes sense that it took so long.

i wonder if they applied any rainbows in the game!? ...

sumbrownkid

Didn't they also work on Tourist Trophy and GT PSP during that five year time span?

And isn't working on the PS3 more complicated than the Xbox?

People think that PD are some magical wizards that can make the PS3 do anything they want.

So far only Naughty Dog can do that.

Click to expand...

I think GT5 is pushing the console a lot harder than Uncharted 2. A scientific test would be to measure the power consumption on both games and do an average on different gameplay scenarios.

5 years is not long at all for a project of this scale. It only feels long when you sit on your ass and complain all day that it's still not here.

Its because PD went through legal troubles with car licensing. That's why they had to import cars straight from GT4, they didn't have the licenses renewed to remodel the cars from scratch.

- 3D
- Track generator
- about 1000 diferent car physics
- alot of diferent beautifull High res tracks
- more than 200 premium cars (with interiors all done)

Just to name a few things that might have taken a lot of time. Its just a shame that some of the standard (great) cars look so terrible

porschedrifter

Its because PD went through legal troubles with car licensing. That's why they had to import cars straight from GT4, they didn't have the licenses renewed to remodel the cars from scratch.

Click to expand...

So some of the manufacturers rather have terrible standards than beautifull premiums in the game because of licensing???? that makes no sense at all

porschedrifter

Its because PD went through legal troubles with car licensing. That's why they had to import cars straight from GT4, they didn't have the licenses renewed to remodel the cars from scratch.

Click to expand...

Is there any evidence for this?

the Interceptor

Is there any evidence for this?

Click to expand...

Thats a load of B***** - what about the FGT - dont tell me they had trouble licensing their own cars

the Interceptor

Is there any evidence for this?

Click to expand...

i do know at one point, it got delayed due to licensing problems with the introduction to car damages...

DanDiplo

It's sad to read some of the comments in this thread that are obviously from a bunch of children who haven't the slightest clue what is involved in software design.

First, you need to negotiate with all the car manufactures to license the vehicles and get the rights. Then you need to negotiate with all the race circuits and acquire the rights. Then you need to get people like Jeff Gordon on-board and acquire the NASCAR license. Then you need to negotiate with Top Gear, Red Bull and all the different 3rd parties whose products make up the game. Then you need to license all the music from all the different artists.

Then you need to make highly detailed 3D models of interiors and exteriors of over 200 cars. These models are probably more detailed then anything seen on a console before. That means photographers dispatched around the world to take thousands of photos and then these need to translated into 3D models, textures, height maps etc.

Then you need to model all the tracks, measure them, aquire GPS data, drive them in real life, consult with real-life race drivers about how they "feel" etc.

Then you need to develop a propriety 3D engine capable of running at 1080p at 60 FPS with up to 16 high-polygon cars in it and with dynamic lighting and weather effects. And do this all within the very limited memory of the PS3.

Then you need to develop a complex physics engine and squeeze that into the limited PS3 memory.

Then you need to develop net-code from scratch, which is massively difficult.

Then you need to develop the UI.

Then you need to add support for multiple control devices.

Then you need to test it, re-test it and test it again. Then fix any bugs. And every bug and change you make needs to go through change-control and be thoroughly tested to ensure no regressions creep in.

And that's just scratching the surface of what is involved...

Click to expand...

This is no different to what every other racing game developer has to do and can they release games year after year! What you have done is explain how a game is made, its no harder for PD than everyone else and the only reason why they take so much longer is not because they release a higher quality product.... its because they are understaffed for the job and they focus too damn long on gaining perfection in one area whereas other aspects of the game get little or no attention. Bad decision making and prioritization in my opinion is why it took so long.

Robin.

PD said that we won't have to wait long for GT6.
If each car takes 6 months to develop, then we will wait much, much longer than we did for GT5? All cars with interior view is a MUST for GT6.

GT5's development cycle and the wider implications for future installments for the series have been discussed before. Multiple times. Please use the search function before starting a new thread in future - that's what it's there for. The only reason why I hadn't closed this thread until now is because I didn't see it until just now.