Help with tuning.

  • Thread starter Tank-Ceo
  • 63 comments
  • 4,330 views
The syptom-remedy style of the guides is what makes it so good for a beginner, in my opinion. Anybody can take a car out with stock settings and see what the car is doing badly and refer to the guide to find a possible remedy.

The way he tells you what a setting does in general, then shows you what the relationship between the front and rear is for that same setting makes it easy for a beginner to start understanding the concepts.

After setting up a few cars using the guide you get a feel for what setting does what . Once you know what changing the settings is going to do, tuning the car to your driving style is easy.

Besides, all tuning is symptom remedy anyway. The car is doing something you don't like and you try to remedy it by changing something. Knowing what to change to get the result you want is important.
 
Symptom and remedy model doesn't do a good job of representing why it works, sure the actions and results are appropriately paired in most circumstances, but why undertake method A of eliminating understeer as opposed to method B? This is where the symptom and remedy approach falls short.
 
Scaff's guides aren't just symptom remedy. He clearly explains what does what and why. He even has drawings and diagrams.

And I don't know what you mean by biased to his tuning style. He tells you what the parts of the suspension do and explains their relationship to eachother, then it's up to you to tune the car to your liking.

My point is that the guides helped me alot. The OP should read them.
 
... and I said earlier they made a great reference, just that I didn't entirely agree with every method included. I don't discourage anyone from reading them, but putting them into context with some guided exercises can illustrate the learning points better. Most text books on any given subject include exercises at the end of every chapter with answers in the index for reference.
 
Tank-Ceo
Also, when tuning a car, what should I tackle first?

Camber, toe, height, spring, damper, roll bar, aerodynamics? Which should I adjust each first if i were to test on the track? In what order?
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aero, gearing, springs, dampers, camber, ride height, lsd, toe, roll bar
 
Ronald6
^^ brake balance first.
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That may be valid for real world tuning more than it is in this game. Whether to use it or not at all is one argument, but I'd disagree with starting with it under all circumstances as far as GT is concerned.

budious
I think people look at the gran turismo braking scale in the wrong perspective. This is how I see it:


  • 1 = 20%
  • 2 = 40 %
  • 3 = 60 %
  • 4 = 80 %
  • 5 = 100 %
  • 6 = 120 %
  • 7 = 140 %
  • 8 = 160 %
  • 9 = 180 %
  • 10 = 200 %
So if the car naturally has stronger bias on the front, bigger rotors and more pistons in the caliber, then it reflects this when the brake controller is set at 5/5. You're not adjusting the ratio of braking front to rear; rather, the adjustments affect the stopping power proportional to the strength of the brake setup on a particular end of the car. This is at least how I view it and why I don't normally deviate from the 5/5 setup myself.
Click to expand...
 
budious
... and why do you always spell my name as bodius in just above every post you make mention of me? I could understand a one or two time spelling mistake, but how many times you got to see it to remember it?
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Sorry, I never realised I was spelling it wrong. I'll keep an eye on it from now on. Peace.
 
How do you know what spring rate you should have for a specific car, like the G37 HPE?

It weighs in at 1233kg. The default for a custom suspension is 10.9/9.3. Is this value specific to that car, or should I go by the fixed sports suspension value for spring rate?

I mean, what is the proper way to figure out the correct spring rate for that vehicle with a ride height of zero?

Once I have the spring rate down, for example, 10.9/9.3 for car A, and I want to reduce the vehicle height by -25/-25 out of -30/-30. I would then be required to increase the spring rate. Now is a higher spring rate aka stiffening, and lower is softening? With that said, what is the proper amount of increase to those springs? Then I would need to adjust the extension which should be proportionate to the spring rate, correct? Compression should always be 1x less than extension, correct?
 
budious
That wasn't what I was trying to say at all... and why do you always spell my name as bodius in just above every post you make mention of me? I could understand a one or two time spelling mistake, but how many times you got to see it to remember it?

You want a tuning assignment to help you learn a bit about suspension? Let's take a car that drives considerably well on its stock suspension, say go purchase the Ferrari 458 Italia, then purchase some Sport Soft tires and the Fully Customizable Suspension and nothing else for the time being.

First, reequip the stock suspension and drive a few laps on a track you are interested in tuning for. Note any qualities you like or dislike about the car. Next, reequip the full custom suspension and drive a few laps and note any qualities you like or dislike. Now, copy over the spring rates from the stock suspension to the full custom suspension and set all the dampers and stabilizers to 1s, leave the default camber if any but zero out the rear toe. Drive a few more laps and note the handling, it should be identical to the stock suspension (or actually leave the stock toe to really re-achieve the stock feel), but now you have a baseline to start tuning your custom suspension.

The idea here is that for the stock weight at the stock ride height of the car, the stock spring rates are fairly decent (6.2 FR / 7.0 RR - if I recall correctly). Your tuning assignment is to not adjust ride height or spring rates, but only to make adjustments to dampers and stabilizers and note the effects on handling and to tune the car to the track using only those three adjustments (extension, compression, anti-roll bars). This should get you on your way to tuning like a pro.
Click to expand...

Are you a racing car driver or are you anything to do with motorsport (do not touch height adjustment) how ridiculous is that the lower the car is the lower the centre of gravity the less it wollows and leans. The only cars you should not lower are rally cars any other car will handle better by being lowered. Not neccesarily dropped to the ground but deffinately lower.
 
calico
Are you a racing car driver or are you anything to do with motorsport (do not touch height adjustment) how ridiculous is that the lower the car is the lower the centre of gravity the less it wollows and leans. The only cars you should not lower are rally cars any other car will handle better by being lowered. Not neccesarily dropped to the ground but deffinately lower.
Click to expand...

I don't think he said that at all... He's giving advice for finding spring rates, while I agree with him that the default fully tunable suspension's default spring rate is a good rate at stock weight, I feel it's more tuned with a few inch drop. Either way what he's saying is still a good means for tweaking the spring rate initially, dialing in the settings will still involve tweaking in when adjusting the ride height, but we haven't really got that far yet if we are still discussing where to start with spring rates.
 
calico
Are you a racing car driver or are you anything to do with motorsport (do not touch height adjustment) how ridiculous is that the lower the car is the lower the centre of gravity the less it wollows and leans. The only cars you should not lower are rally cars any other car will handle better by being lowered. Not neccesarily dropped to the ground but deffinately lower.
Click to expand...

I'm only talking about performing an exercise where you learn the fundamentals of extension, compression, and stabilizers and their effect on handling. I never said the others were not applicable, but for this particular car, at its given weight, the stock ride height and spring rate are a good baseline. Please learn to read before posting snobby comments.
 
Please learn to read before posting snobby comments.
"The methodology is very symptom and remedy in nature rather than intuitive and restricted"

Please learn more about the subject you are commenting on before typing sentence set out to baffle people The sentence above is counter productive and means nothing. Alot of what gets invented in the real world is symptom and remedy its human nature intuitive and restricted is not even good grammar it should be "restrictive" .
 
calico
Please learn more about the subject you are commenting on before typing sentence set out to baffle people The sentence above is counter productive and means nothing. Alot of what gets invented in the real world is symptom and remedy its human nature intuitive and restricted is not even good grammar it should be "restrictive" .
Click to expand...

Please tell me, that you aren't lecturing on proper grammar, after that horrid excuse of a post. There's so much wrong with what you just wrote.
 
Symptom and remedy is a process and a tool but it's not a teaching process. If you want to teach someone something you do it through illustration and explanation. If you want to make a quick study sheet then you list symptom and remedy.

Also, restrictive and restricted are both adjectives. However, restricted refers to setting limitations on variables or control conditions, whereas restrictive is more commonly associated with enforcement of rules and regulations. For the context that I used the word, restricted is the proper terminology.
 
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Guys, stop trolling and flaming each other.

Please help me out with this question since I am having a hard time understanding it.

"How do you know what spring rate you should have for a specific car, like the G37 HPE?

It weighs in at 1233kg. The default for a custom suspension is 10.9/9.3. Is this value specific to that car, or should I go by the fixed sports suspension value for spring rate?

I mean, what is the proper way to figure out the correct spring rate for that vehicle with a ride height of zero?

Once I have the spring rate down, for example, 10.9/9.3 for car A, and I want to reduce the vehicle height by -25/-25 out of -30/-30. I would then be required to increase the spring rate. Now is a higher spring rate aka stiffening, and lower is softening? With that said, what is the proper amount of increase to those springs? Then I would need to adjust the extension which should be proportionate to the spring rate, correct? Compression should always be 1x less than extension, correct?"
___________________________
 
calico
Please learn more about the subject you are commenting on before typing sentence set out to baffle people The sentence above is counter productive and means nothing. Alot of what gets invented in the real world is symptom and remedy its human nature intuitive and restricted is not even good grammar it should be "restrictive" .
Click to expand...

Due to the combined factors of boredom and a lack of active topics, I've decided to pick apart your post, regardless of it's benefits.

First and foremost, I understand you're from the UK and I would have never commented on your English skills, had you not been a complete and utter hypocrite.

Secondly, just because you aren't intelligent enough to comprehend the statement that budious has made, does not mean it is counterproductive or meaningless.

On to your lack of grammar, spelling, punctuation and other common rules of proper English. Even ignoring your horrible structural syntax, you either missed an 'a' between "typing sentence" or you forgot to pluralize "sentence". You failed to use a period after "people". Disregarding that the point of your second sentence is, in fact, false, it's also contradictory in and of itself. Counterproductive is one word, not two; not even hyphenated. Though, by definition, counterproductive is to hinder the aim of the ultimate goal, while meaning nothing implies having no effect on progress neither forward nor back. So therein lies the contradiction of the statement. Moving along to the next sentence A lot is two words, not one. You also forgot to use two spaces after a period. 'In the real world' is considered a reference of a world which is not our own. Now, while this has become fairly common in MMORPG's, such as FFXI, WOW and others, Gran Turismo 5 is currently only an MMO; meaning there is no virtual world, neither in game, or in these forums. Next is knowing the difference between its and it's, where one is a possessive pronoun while the other is a contraction; not an abbreviation like many may think. You seem to have missed another period, this time between nature and intuitive. Which means, you also failed to capitalize intuitive. Finally, a missed comma after grammar and as if all of that wasn't enough, you incorrectly used a space between your quotation marks and the period.

The cherry on top . . .
Even your signature has a spelling mistake. So take your own advice:
'learn more on the subject you are commenting on'.
:sly:
 
Tank-Ceo
Guys, stop trolling and flaming each other.

Please help me out with this question since I am having a hard time understanding it.

"How do you know what spring rate you should have for a specific car, like the G37 HPE?

It weighs in at 1233kg. The default for a custom suspension is 10.9/9.3. Is this value specific to that car, or should I go by the fixed sports suspension value for spring rate?

I mean, what is the proper way to figure out the correct spring rate for that vehicle with a ride height of zero?

Once I have the spring rate down, for example, 10.9/9.3 for car A, and I want to reduce the vehicle height by -25/-25 out of -30/-30. I would then be required to increase the spring rate. Now is a higher spring rate aka stiffening, and lower is softening? With that said, what is the proper amount of increase to those springs? Then I would need to adjust the extension which should be proportionate to the spring rate, correct? Compression should always be 1x less than extension, correct?"
___________________________
Click to expand...

I don't over think springs. It's the one tuning area in the game that PD has adjusted for each vehicle. I find that they are usually in the ballpark on race cars and super cars. I raise or lower one end of the car for a small correction in balance, if needed. For smaller, non race cars or super cars, I keep the same overall balance of the springs and raise to meet the tire of choice. Comfort tires = softer springs/dampers
Sport tires = med springs/dampers
Race tires and more HP = higher springs/dampers

Others use formulas and algebra to get to more precise answers. I rely a bit more on "get things in the ballpark and adjust for feel/driving style." The different tuning options are so interconnected, I question what happens to the perfect spring formula when you adjust other elements of a tune.
 
Tank-Ceo
"How do you know what spring rate you should have for a specific car, like the G37 HPE?
Click to expand...
Whatever feels best to a given driver with given mods on a given track. Leave the maths behind and tune by feel. To start with, though, it's best to not change the ratio of front to rear spring rate.
(It sounds like you're trying to replicate a real-life experience, so I reckon you're best off researching real-life spring and hide height data. It won't necessarily give you the best result for GT5 though)


Tank-Ceo
The default for a custom suspension is 10.9/9.3. Is this value specific to that car
Click to expand...
It's car specific. (if you have more than 1 car with FC suspension, you could have easily worked that out yourself...)


Tank-Ceo
, or should I go by the fixed sports suspension value for spring rate? I mean, what is the proper way to figure out the correct spring rate for that vehicle with a ride height of zero?
Click to expand...
Google real-life setups (see 1st answer). Although then you'll need to ponder whether GT5 uses spring rates or wheel rates :ouch:. Either way you should just think of it as a starting point, so it's not that important.

Tank-Ceo
Once I have the spring rate down, for example, 10.9/9.3 for car A, and I want to reduce the vehicle height by -25/-25 out of -30/-30. I would then be required to increase the spring rate. Now is a higher spring rate aka stiffening, and lower is softening?
Click to expand...
higher = stiffer. No offence, but if you're needing to ask that question, you would really benefit from learning some suspension fundamentals. Like from Scaff's guide.


Tank-Ceo
With that said, what is the proper amount of increase to those springs?
Click to expand...
If maths makes you happy, then
- somehow find out the stock suspension stroke distance
- remaining suspension stroke should be inversely proportional to spring rate (eg reducing stroke 30%, means 30% higher springs)

Or you could just keep lowering the car (for a given spring rate) until performance suffers because it starts bottoming out.


Tank-Ceo
Then I would need to adjust the extension which should be proportionate to the spring rate, correct?
Click to expand...
There is no fixed rule for GT5. You might prefer the feeling of an underdamped or overdamped car. I think there are even debates about whether GT5 automatically compensates damper settings for changes in spring rate.


Tank-Ceo
Compression should always be 1x less than extension, correct?"
Click to expand...
Scaff says 1-2 clicks (for GT4), the GT5 help says something else. Picking a dogma like this will simplify your outlook on life, but the truth is they are different tools with different effects. So each situation may call for a different ratio of extension vs compression.
 
Adrenaline
Please tell me, that you aren't lecturing on proper grammar, after that horrid excuse of a post. There's so much wrong with what you just wrote.
Click to expand...

Is failing to use punctuation marks bad grammar? That was a looooong sentence he wrote, lol everybody is so ready to attack, "why so serious"
 
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Help with tuning suddenly became Help with grammar... another day on GTP. I do admit problems with run on sentences, though that is the fault of my thought processes, not necessarily bad grammar. :)
 
I would have never mentioned grammar, had he not tried to use it as an arguing point. I'm just a firm believer that people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
 
All I want to find out is how to start off with Spring rate. What spring rate should I use on a 1250 KG car. Obviously your supposed to set the spring rate initially based on the cars weight in the front and in the rear. But how do I find that out?

Lets choose the 300zx TT 89 for example. The car weighs about 1250kg on Stage 3 Weight Reduction. The rest is bone stock except for tires which is soft racing tires.. Obviously you need to increase the spring rate for race tires, but by how much?

Say it has a sports suspension. What good is a sport suspension for? What tires and what horsepower and wieght?

Why does a Height sport suspension increase the default spring rate?

If I were to lower the ride height to -25/-25 which is the lowest I would go, would I increase the spring rate by what percentage? 25%? 50%? 75%? How do I determine what percentage?
 
Tank-Ceo
*the same questions, over and over again*
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I guess my post was TLDR??

Whatever.

Unsubscribed.

Have fun arguing about the intricacies of grammar. If you move on to discussing fragment sentences, feel free to use these two above as evidence:indiff:.
 
Like a hypocrite, I'm back! :dunce: I'd like to follow up a test that Budious proposed a while back in this thread:

budious
...purchase the Ferrari 458 Italia, then purchase some Sport Soft tires and the Fully Customizable Suspension and nothing else for the time being.

First, reequip the stock suspension and drive a few laps on a track you are interested in tuning for. Note any qualities you like or dislike about the car. Next, reequip the full custom suspension and drive a few laps and note any qualities you like or dislike. Now, copy over the spring rates from the stock suspension to the full custom suspension and set all the dampers and stabilizers to 1s, leave the default camber if any but zero out the rear toe. Drive a few more laps and note the handling, it should be identical to the stock suspension (or actually leave the stock toe to really re-achieve the stock feel), but now you have a baseline to start tuning your custom suspension.

The idea here is that for the stock weight at the stock ride height of the car, the stock spring rates are fairly decent (6.2 FR / 7.0 RR - if I recall correctly). Your tuning assignment is to not adjust ride height or spring rates, but only to make adjustments to dampers and stabilizers and note the effects on handling and to tune the car to the track using only those three adjustments (extension, compression, anti-roll bars). This should get you on your way to tuning like a pro.
Click to expand...
Budious, I tried out your method and would like a bit more help please. My impression of my 650bhp/1306kg Ferrari 458 was of understeer. "Understeer"?? Yep. I agree there is power oversteer on demand, but aside from when the rear tyres are being torn to shreds by the V12, I reckon it's quite understeery. (I'm not running an LSD by the way, and I left rear toe at +0.20)

Adjusting only dampers and sway bars, I eventually came up with
damper ext: 1 / 6
damper comp: 4 / 10
roll bars: 4 / 7

This reduced understeer, but not as much as I was hoping for.
(Here is an explanation for why I didn't go for fully stiff rear and soft front: it needed some front anti-roll to control body-roll induced understeer, some front damper comp was useful in giving the front end "bite" on corner entry, and I found that reducing rear extension freed up the car a bit to reduce understeer)

Am I going about this the wrong way? Do you have any tips to further reduce the understeer (using only dampers and roll bars)?

Thanks,
Simon
 
Budious, I've done some more testing with your tuning assignment, got another question please.

budious
First, reequip the stock suspension and drive a few laps on a track you are interested in tuning for. Note any qualities you like or dislike about the car. Next, reequip the full custom suspension and drive a few laps and note any qualities you like or dislike. Now, copy over the spring rates from the stock suspension to the full custom suspension and set all the dampers and stabilizers to 1s, leave the default camber if any but zero out the rear toe. Drive a few more laps and note the handling, it should be identical to the stock suspension (or actually leave the stock toe to really re-achieve the stock feel)
Click to expand...
After doing the tests with the 458 (see previous post), I've revisited them with the California (FR drivetrain). My feeling was that damping at 1 all round made the car a lot more twitchy than the stock suspension. After a bit more testing, it felt to me like 5 all round for the damping is what the stock suspension actually uses. Keen to hear what you think about this.

Simon
 
After installing an adjustable suspension you can reinstall the stock suspension, then select the adjuster ( what you would select to tune the tunable suspension) then it will show you what the stock suspension settings are, you can't change anything, but you can see the values.
 

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