Physics Flaw

  • Thread starter Saidur_Ali
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Saidur_Ali

Saidur_Ali

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United Kingdom
United Kingdom
I was trying out the Ferrari F10 on the Monza track using everything stock and a low downforce setup with all aids off apart from ABS on 1 (I also tried without as well). It felt like it had too much grip so I bought the full range of tyres including Comfort Hards. I think I tried Comfort Mediums first to see how the car will drive with them on just for fun and to my surprise it had loads of grip. So I put on the Comfort Hards again and it still felt like I was driving on rails. I increased the downforce and the tyres were starting to behave like normal (Very low grip).

I think this is a big physics flaw to be honest. I noticed something like this before when I was competing in the GT Academy Time Trial. The cars rear stays stable if you like put to much steering lock in and overload the front tyres. If you turn the wheel fast, back to straight and then close to full lock to where you want to turn, you can abuse the understeer and be very aggressive as the car still turns in but also stays very stable. I think my best time using that method was less than 3 seconds off the fastest lap set in the GT Academy and I did not spend much time trying to perfect that technique as I switched back to the more smooth approach to driving.

Just to confirm it is not just me, can people try out the F10 on Comfort Hards with the lowest downforce setting and check if the car feels very stable. PD employees, if you see this can you improve the physics so understeer and low downforce settings behave correctly. I have not tried it with other cars yet, maybe the same happens with other race cars.
 
Spagetti69
Comfort tires on an F1 car = loads of grip.

Hmm something's amiss there.
Click to expand...

Yes hence the thread title ;). The funny thing is once you put more downforce on it becomes very low grip as expected. I thought at first I did not change the tyres but I tried different ones and still the same high levels of grip.

PD team, add the option to change steering lock for the official wheels at least, to make driving these cars better and more realistic.
 
saidur_ali
I was trying out the Ferrari F10 on the Monza track using everything stock and a low downforce setup with all aids off apart from ABS on 1 (I also tried without as well). It felt like it had too much grip so I bought the full range of tyres including Comfort Hards. I think I tried Comfort Mediums first to see how the car will drive with them on just for fun and to my surprise it had loads of grip. So I put on the Comfort Hards again and it still felt like I was driving on rails. I increased the downforce and the tyres were starting to behave like normal (Very low grip).

I think this is a big physics flaw to be honest. I noticed something like this before when I was competing in the GT Academy Time Trial. The cars rear stays stable if you like put to much steering lock in and overload the front tyres. If you turn the wheel fast, back to straight and then close to full lock to where you want to turn, you can abuse the understeer and be very aggressive as the car still turns in but also stays very stable. I think my best time using that method was less than 3 seconds off the fastest lap set in the GT Academy and I did not spend much time trying to perfect that technique as I switched back to the more smooth approach to driving.

Just to confirm it is not just me, can people try out the F10 on Comfort Hards with the lowest downforce setting and check if the car feels very stable. PD employees, if you see this can you improve the physics so understeer and low downforce settings behave correctly. I have not tried it with other cars yet, maybe the same happens with other race cars.
Click to expand...

Have you tried comparing the times using these different tires. I would choose a track like the Nurburgring GP track and see if using these tires produce the same or different results.
 
mykem
Have you tried comparing the times using these different tires. I would choose a track like the Nurburgring GP track and see if using these tires produce the same or different results.
Click to expand...

I did not play for long as I was only planning to do only a few laps with the car and to my surprise I was going flat out on Comfort Hards in the end. If others can confirm the same happens to them then it most likey is not a glitch on my end for buying the tyres in the tuning menu with the track loaded. I will try the car out again now on the Nurburgring GP track to see if I have loads of grip with the same tyres.

Edit: Tried it on the Nurburgring GP track and the same thing. Very high grip like Racing Softs in traction zones. Maybe more understeer but very stable.
 
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saidur_ali
I did not play for long as I was only planning to do only a few laps with the car and to my surprise I was going flat out on Comfort Hards in the end. If others can confirm the same happens to them then it most likey is not a glitch on my end for buying the tyres in the tuning menu with the track loaded. I will try the car out again now on the Nurburgring GP track to see if I have loads of grip with the same tyres.

Edit: Tried it on the Nurburgring GP track and the same thing. Very high grip like Racing Softs in traction zones. Maybe more understeer but very stable.
Click to expand...

How long do they last ? And difference in lap times would be a good idea to try.
 
No46_TheDoctor
How long do they last ? And difference in lap times would be a good idea to try.
Click to expand...

I have not tried that. Just was playing free run in practice mode. The big flaw is that it has very high levels of grip. The handling characterisistics are like this years F150th Italia F1 car. A lot of understeer but grippy, quite fun and oversteer moments also feel right.

maxpontiac
Would like to see lap times and a video, or at least someone who has tried this well.
Click to expand...

I can try to record some laps of Nurburgring and Monza if you want. Shall I do it without ABS on or with as I'm so used to it with ABS 1 on GT5. Maybe someone with capture device already setup can record it. I want to know if the same thing happens for others, not just me.

Tried Suzuka just now and again high grip, lots of understeer that 130R becomes an actual corner. One thing I noticed, I remember seeing this on GT PSP with the F2007, in high speed corners when you lift completely off the throttle, there is still some throttle input. The same with GT5 I just saw now. Maybe simulation of the 10% throttle used to keep engines reliable?
 
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saidur_ali
One thing I noticed, I remember seeing this on GT PSP with the F2007, in high speed corners when you lift completely off the throttle, there is still some throttle input. The same with GT5 I just saw now. Maybe simulation of the 10% throttle used to keep engines reliable?
Click to expand...

Off-throttle blown aerodynamics too perhaps?!!!
Going to have to try a FGT and F10 to see if the same is true.
 
Testing Online right now, F10, from RS to CS tire change I lost 2 seconds, but the car performed remarkably similar, max downforce.
Min downforce = similar performance

FGT:
hard to tell, CS seemed less stable than RS, but since I can't stand this car I can not do another lap.

Things for YOU to test
-same settings on FGT, second F10 and all 4 F2007 cars...

Things of interest:
-Monza sky is a magnificent FAIL.
-F10 still vibrates my DFP for no good reason...

Overall opinion:
undecided, never drive any of these cars so I don't really care, good day.
 
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I own the F10 and put it through its paces. Its grip is extraordinary: you can brake outrageously late and get on the power, all the way on the power, very, very early. Still, I'm not sure how this is a physics flaw just yet (in fact, having never driven a car remotely like this (closest I ever got was a NASCAR, which is still totally unlike the F10), I don't think we can call it a flaw). More likely it's a product of the car's incredible aerodynamic and mechanical grip. My first experience with the FGT, the car that I'm probably benchmarking the F10 to, is night and day. The FGT is an unstable piece of junk compared to the F10. I think that's why it seems like the F10 is just unreal.
 
I've noticed this while golding S.Vettel.
I watched some youtube videos and I've seen people make perfectly good turns at full throttle with zero understeer whereas I am unable to make that turn at that speed without oversteering (they can do the Mercedes Arena at Nurburgring GP at full throttle without leaving the track whereas I can't do that on sixaxis).
I'd call this understeer abuse, as you said - you can put way too much stress on front tires and yet the car stays stable.
But again, grip was never GT5's strong side - some cars have either too much (XJ13) or too little (Pescarolo C60 Hybride) when compared to their real life counterparts, not to even mention racing soft tires.
 
Still, you should know that an F1 car produces nearly 80% of its grip from aerodynamics. When you say low aero setup, if you look closely it's still far more than any GT race car can manage, except for the Group C cars...

If you compare your times with real times from F1 you will see that with R/M and R/H tyres you are about 2-3 sec faster wchich is correct since you don't have the immense g-forces to affect your perception of what's happening and fear to affect your decisions... And yes I know that with enough laps you'll get more... I mean lap after lap... Consistantly...

Also, as you probably know, the stock setup has got a lot of understeer so that it is easily accesible to any player.

Finally, when you get understeer the car isn't stable... It understeers... Stable is not just avoiding a spin. But it absolutely destroys the tyres... And in an online race you'd probably destroy the tyres too...

But please consider that putting comfort hards on an F1 car will not have the same differnce in grip as in a road car or GT race car...
 
Frankly it's pretty ridiculous you can even fit an F1 car with anything other than racing tires, they don't exactly run standard sizes you know. Even if you somehow found truck tires with the same humongous sidewalls and in the obscene width you need on the rear the loads placed on them would tear the things to pieces within a lap.
 
Matthias N
Frankly it's pretty ridiculous you can even fit an F1 car with anything other than racing tires, they don't exactly run standard sizes you know. Even if you somehow found truck tires with the same humongous sidewalls and in the obscene width you need on the rear the loads placed on them would tear the things to pieces within a lap.
Click to expand...

You do realise the names are really just placeholders, and that they are really meant to be based on different compounds?

It's not like you get the chance to put Retreads on Alonso's company car...
 
ManiacRS
If you compare your times with real times from F1 you will see that with R/M and R/H tyres you are about 2-3 sec faster wchich is correct since you don't have the immense g-forces to affect your perception of what's happening and fear to affect your decisions... And yes I know that with enough laps you'll get more... I mean lap after lap... Consistantly...
Click to expand...

Fuel weight, which isn't modeled in GT5, would play a major role here too.
 
I just hate the vibration I get on my wheel when the F1 car bottoms out... But I've seen this and I agree, but the RS are still more stable then the CH's... but not by as much as you'd think...
 
Matthias N
Frankly it's pretty ridiculous you can even fit an F1 car with anything other than racing tires, they don't exactly run standard sizes you know. Even if you somehow found truck tires with the same humongous sidewalls and in the obscene width you need on the rear the loads placed on them would tear the things to pieces within a lap.
Click to expand...

Yeah. F1 cars are some of the few cars that should actually be on GT5's racing tires. Selecting "options" that make no logical sense is the problem.
 
Online times, F2007, everything off except ABS1, Default setup except 150/200 aero.

CH - 1'31'1
RS - 1'28'5

That's less than a 3 second difference on Nurburgring GP'F. I don't understand this myself. In real life low quality street tires would be shredded to pieces when corning at close to 5G's.
 
peter_vod69
You do realise the names are really just placeholders, and that they are really meant to be based on different compounds?

It's not like you get the chance to put Retreads on Alonso's company car...
Click to expand...

Sn1per666
Online times, F2007, everything off except ABS1, Default setup except 150/200 aero.

CH - 1'31'1
RS - 1'28'5

That's less than a 3 second difference on Nurburgring GP'F. I don't understand this myself. In real life low quality street tires would be shredded to pieces when corning at close to 5G's.
Click to expand...

Reading much?
 
peter_vod69
Reading much?
Click to expand...

irrelevant to what he posted. He's putting a tyre compound comparable to road legal economy tyre on a F1 car...that would do what he said, rip itself to shreds at 5g. unless you are suggesting that comfort hards for a F1 car is equivalent to the hardest F1 tyre.....which in itself is hugley misleading if true.

This yet another pretty huge flaw that could have been easily rectified by simply limiting the F1 cars to racing tyres.
 
robbo6
irrelevant to what he posted. He's putting a tyre compound comparable to road legal economy tyre on a F1 car...that would do what he said, rip itself to shreds at 5g. unless you are suggesting that comfort hards for a F1 car is equivalent to the hardest F1 tyre.....which in itself is hugley misleading if true.

This yet another pretty huge flaw that could have been easily rectified by simply limiting the F1 cars to racing tyres.
Click to expand...

It wouldn't "rip itself to shreds" and if you thought about the way a tyre works you'd know why.

I'm not suggesting it's equivalent to anything, merely that it IS a harder compound.
 
Well yeah with the way the game works the only difference between comfort tires and slicks is probably a grippiness value and maaaybe something about how squirmy and prone to overloading they are (I find the comforts tend to stay overloaded far longer than better tires but then I suspect I'm habitually overdriving their level of grip) . It's simply not simulating things like thread blocks moving around on eachother and lateral stiffness that'd make a comfort tire way slower than a slick of the same rubber compound in real life.

Oh, bit of pointless trivia: in 2003 the Minardi F1 team found itself 'between' tire contracts after having dropped by Michelin and they ran a Valencia test on Avon F3000 spec tires.
 
I will give this a look, but honestly there is no way you can use DOT economy class tire compound on an F1 car. Those things aren't even fathomable realistically, PD just forgot to disallow F1 and FGT cars from utilizing anything but race compounds this also goes for the Group C cars and Le Mans Prototypes. None of these cars would handle correctly as for all seriousness you would have to wear regular street wheels which would not fit in the wheel wells of most of these cars because of the sidewall height, would have serious problems putting power down and long heat up time mainly on the front tires. Those high sidewalls would have sideways happy thing about them, turning all those races cars into drifters.

If they could use economy compound on those cars, i would believe that you would have tires that do not heat up well, mechanical grip would be a serious problem as street compounds do not have exceptionally high grip characteristics. F1 cars do produce insane amounts of downforce, extremely low center of gravity. I would think that the economy tires would have high rolling resistance when compared to racing compounds.
 
599GT
I've noticed this while golding S.Vettel.
I watched some youtube videos and I've seen people make perfectly good turns at full throttle with zero understeer whereas I am unable to make that turn at that speed without oversteering (they can do the Mercedes Arena at Nurburgring GP at full throttle without leaving the track whereas I can't do that on sixaxis).
I'd call this understeer abuse, as you said - you can put way too much stress on front tires and yet the car stays stable.
But again, grip was never GT5's strong side - some cars have either too much (XJ13) or too little (Pescarolo C60 Hybride) when compared to their real life counterparts, not to even mention racing soft tires.
Click to expand...
I think that is just SRF being on. Generally the grip levels using the stock tyres and stock setup is good in the game compared to real life. I think aero is not done well as it gives too much grip even to road cars when you add wings. Traction should not increase that much in the game but it does. Only at higher speed cars should be more stable but the physics more or less give a lot of cornering and traction grip.

StevenDunn99
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=4825504#post4825504 though I think it only effects the F'10 and not the F'07. At the time there were a string of discussions on this regarding the changes to F1 cars and tyre regulations.

PD got quite a few things wrong with tyres.
Click to expand...
I think there is a difference between the tyres, the comfort hards make the car understeer more and also if you put the car in maximum downforce, it becomes more undrivable.

ManiacRS
Still, you should know that an F1 car produces nearly 80% of its grip from aerodynamics. When you say low aero setup, if you look closely it's still far more than any GT race car can manage, except for the Group C cars...

If you compare your times with real times from F1 you will see that with R/M and R/H tyres you are about 2-3 sec faster wchich is correct since you don't have the immense g-forces to affect your perception of what's happening and fear to affect your decisions... And yes I know that with enough laps you'll get more... I mean lap after lap... Consistantly...

Also, as you probably know, the stock setup has got a lot of understeer so that it is easily accesible to any player.

Finally, when you get understeer the car isn't stable... It understeers... Stable is not just avoiding a spin. But it absolutely destroys the tyres... And in an online race you'd probably destroy the tyres too...

But please consider that putting comfort hards on an F1 car will not have the same differnce in grip as in a road car or GT race car...
Click to expand...
The tyres seem to stay cold so should have good tyre wear and don't look they are being used much (Nurburgring GP part of video). It is stable, look at the video below. It is definately a flaw that once you put the downforce right up it becomes a lot harder to drive. I have not saved a replay with high downforce yet so will do when I can. I think the way the rear tyres stay cold tells us a lot about how the tyre model works. It is like it is in some sort of equilibrium, that is why it stays so stable. You can see I'm applying a lot of throttle and it just sticks.

 
saidur_ali
Yes hence the thread title ;). The funny thing is once you put more downforce on it becomes very low grip as expected. I thought at first I did not change the tyres but I tried different ones and still the same high levels of grip.

PD team, add the option to change steering lock for the official wheels at least, to make driving these cars better and more realistic.
Click to expand...

My friend can get sterring lock on his g27, after turning a full 85-110* in both directions shoots out a ploom (is that how you spell it?) of smoke.. And he still has an excess 450* to go
 
bullet360
My friend can get sterring lock on his g27, after turning a full 85-110* in both directions shoots out a ploom (is that how you spell it?) of smoke.. And he still has an excess 450* to go
Click to expand...

I'm confused by what you are trying to say. It is spelt plume by the way but what do you mean you by that? Do you mean his tyres smoke up just by turning in slightly?
 
peter_vod69
It wouldn't "rip itself to shreds" and if you thought about the way a tyre works you'd know why.

I'm not suggesting it's equivalent to anything, merely that it IS a harder compound.
Click to expand...

No.
Racing soft -> Racing hard = change of compound
Racing soft -> Comfort hard = change of compound + a lot smaller contact area

So it's not just a change of compound.
 

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