I think ABS got tweaked.

adeadsnipermatt

adeadsnipermatt

1,735
United States
Orlando FL
MontalvoMC
MontalvoMC
I love driving with out ABS since the day I got my G27 last year and after this update it seems much easier to brake with ABS 0.

For example when using Brake balance of 5/5 you would get extreme oversteer braking mid corner. Now you brake mid corner but you can control it now. Also you let off too fast an you get lift off oversteer your used to. I have tested with street cars so far and my favorite SuperGT car Denzo SC430.

I want to know do you guys think there is a difference or has my foot gotten better at braking?
 
I agree, the league I'm in ran with ABS 0 last night, set the rear bias to 1 or 0 and it only locked up if you were really aggressive. It was tons of fun.
 
I'm messing with a golf GTI right now and again with default settings 5/5 brake balance and ABS 0 I can get about 80% brake pressure on straights before they lock. Which is much better then when they locked at around 30% lol
 
I've never had a tire CS or above lock below 50% in GT5, unless it's mid-corner or I've cranked the brakes up to 8 or so on sports hards or lower. I never run less than 5/4. Maybe you were just smoother than before?

That said, it did seem to feel a bit different just now with my first taste of 2.03. Can't quite say for sure what, maybe a little bit more relaxed? Then again, it might have been nothing.
 
adeadsnipermatt
For example when using Brake balance of 5/5 you would get extreme oversteer braking mid corner.
Click to expand...
That's because 5/5 meant a 50/50 brake distribution with an arbitrary braking power of "5" for both axles. The brake distribution was meant to be changed without the ABS enabled.

Now, what is 5/5 supposed to mean? Normally, putting 50% of the braking force on the rear axle of a normal car (say, 55/45 weight distribution) would cause severe oversteer in real life. If this isn't happening anymore, either PD have dumbed down the driving model or altered distribution values to a way that now they don't represent anymore the actual brake distribution.
 
What ever the unit stands for in the brake balance menu in the tuning screen is what the 5/5 is in my previous posts.

5 front 5 rear used to be extremely horrible for 0 ABS use. Now its decent and tolerable you can still get oversteer but that only if you slamming on the brakes right before the corner.
 
I did some tests right now and got reassured by the fact that brake balance hasn't been altered, just the way (transitions) tires will lock has. With a 5/5 brake distribution rear tires still tend to lock when cornering, but they won't do it as abruptly as before. It is therefore still advisable for optimal braking performance to go for the usual front biased braking distribution.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
I did some tests right now and got reassured by the fact that brake balance hasn't been altered, just the way (transitions) tires will lock has. With a 5/5 brake distribution rear tires still tend to lock when cornering, but they won't do it as abruptly as before. It is therefore still advisable for optimal braking performance to go for the usual front biased braking distribution.
Click to expand...

That's what I was thinking, just a little more "blend time/area" around the point where they start to lock. I thought I was also getting a bit more understeer as well, but it was usually occurring under heavy too-late braking so not very reliable. Then again, that's where I usually spin...
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
I did some tests right now and got reassured by the fact that brake balance hasn't been altered, just the way (transitions) tires will lock has. With a 5/5 brake distribution rear tires still tend to lock when cornering, but they won't do it as abruptly as before. It is therefore still advisable for optimal braking performance to go for the usual front biased braking distribution.
Click to expand...

Exactly what I have been try to say. I'm glad I'm not as crazy as I thought I was.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
That's because 5/5 meant a 50/50 brake distribution with an arbitrary braking power of "5" for both axles. The brake distribution was meant to be changed without the ABS enabled.

Now, what is 5/5 supposed to mean? Normally, putting 50% of the braking force on the rear axle of a normal car (say, 55/45 weight distribution) would cause severe oversteer in real life. If this isn't happening anymore, either PD have dumbed down the driving model or altered distribution values to a way that now they don't represent anymore the actual brake distribution.
Click to expand...
You know it's the downshifting that's causing the rear lock right? (In RWD and some 4WD)

Brake in a straight line and every car I try locks only the front wheels at 5/5 setting, and this was done before 2.02.
If 5/5 actually meant 50/50 braking force the rear wheels would easily lock without even needing to lock the fronts.

Until I see a video of a stock car at 5/5 locking only the rears in a straight line through careful braking, I call BS, again.

If you don't know what I mean, take something FF for example, if it really had 50/50 braking power, you could easily modulate the brake pedal to only lock the rear tires without locking the front tires. But you can't, because 5/5 is relative numbers that simply reflect "default" rather then actual exact braking force. Let alone braking percentage.

Also 0/0 has more then 0% braking pressure, and 10/10 (200%) wouldn't be possible with your theory.

I can't imagine how anyone would assume PD went ahead and changed the braking balance of every car in the game to ridiculous proportions, especially without any of the evidence needed to support it.
 
CSLACR
You know it's the downshifting that's causing the rear lock right? (In RWD and some 4WD)
Click to expand...
Of course I performed my tests without downshifting.

Brake in a straight line and every car I try locks only the front wheels at 5/5 setting, and this was done before 2.02.
Click to expand...
Try steering slightly while keeping braking pressure constant and you will see and feel that rear tires (just the outside one in this case) are indeed locking. It isn't immediately apparent on a straight line in the tire temperature chart because little load is on rear tires in that case and to GT5's physics engine if a locked tire has little load then it will also warm just slightly. And if you're locking both axles, more load goes on front wheels, which will make them heat more as a result.

I suggest using the Top Gear Test Track main straight (ran in reverse) for this kind of testing.

If 5/5 actually meant 50/50 braking force the rear wheels would easily lock without even needing to lock the fronts.
Click to expand...
Which is what happens if you pay attention. Try getting a hatchback FF car and fit it with confort medium or hard tires. Try braking just over the auditory locking threshold. You will see that rear tires will start heating more than front ones. This is noticeable if you start doing it at high speeds.

Until I see a video of a stock car at 5/5 locking only the rears in a straight line through careful braking, I call BS, again.
Click to expand...
You know that a video of this can't be done easily, come on.

If you don't know what I mean, take something FF for example, if it really had 50/50 braking power, you could easily modulate the brake pedal to only lock the rear tires without locking the front tires. But you can't, because 5/5 is relative numbers that simply reflect "default" rather then actual exact braking force. Let alone braking percentage.
Click to expand...
Who says you can't? Yes, you can! Just tried with an Alfa Romeo GTV 3.0.

Also 0/0 has more then 0% braking pressure, and 10/10 (200%) wouldn't be possible with your theory.
Click to expand...
I've come to the conclusion some time ago that braking strength values are an offset from a minimum braking pressure which is equal to both axles. So 0/0 might actually mean 6/6, and 5/5, 11/11. In either cases, brake strength is still equal on both axles.

I can't imagine how anyone would assume PD went ahead and changed the braking balance of every car in the game to ridiculous proportions, especially without any of the evidence needed to support it.
Click to expand...
You haven't got evidence either.

Anyway, here's my recipe for testing.

- Get a short, front-heavy FF car. My case: Alfa Romeo GTV 3.0 '01, 63/37 weight distribution.
- Practice -> Top Gear Test Track
- Disable ABS and all other driving aids including Skid Recovery Force. Enable Tire/Fuel depletion (this is what I've done during this test. On an afterthought, this was actually counterproductive to my point, as more weight - roughly 75 Kg - gets added to the rear axle!).
- Fit Comfort Medium Tires. Comfort Hard tires will be ok too.
- Start practice.
- Turn back immediately on the main straight and start accelerating.
- Accelerate until the end of the first white stripe after the second big "X" on the ground.
- Brake just over the auditory tire locking threshold. In the GTV, it's at about 75-80% controller brake pressure with CM tires.
- Try keeping the car straight.
- If the fact that you had to keep the car straight with your controller/wheel still doesn't convince you, after the car has stopped, quit practice and watch the replay.
- See how it's just rear tires that are locking. If you started braking at the indicated point, the camera should be conveniently following your braking car.

I can't make videos, but I can put here a photo of that testing:

dlxRp.jpg


Note that:
- The car is completely stock except for comfort medium tires
- Brake distribution is 5/5
- The car is still braking effectively, that is, I'm not using the handbrake (see how the front end is loaded, the rear end way high) in the photo and the car has not stopped yet.
- See how rear tires are leaving black marks (bigger photo here). Front ones aren't.
- Shutter speed was 1/60 second
 
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So CSLACR, haven't you tested this yet? You should have read my message by now, since you've written in other threads.
Can other users confirm my findings on ABS (= that with a 5/5 distribution rear tires lock first) by performing the test described above?
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
So CSLACR, haven't you tested this yet? You should have read my message by now, since you've written in other threads.
Can other users confirm my findings on ABS (= that with a 5/5 distribution rear tires lock first) by performing the test described above?
Click to expand...

Of course rear locks first. When breaking, weigth is on front wheels, rear is lift up, with same force on both axle you lock rear first.

That's why most cars have on front big disc brakes and small disc (or drum brakes) on rear. Even on motorbikes or bicycles is the same.
 
Well, CSLACR insisted that in GT5 with a 5/5 brake distribution rear tires don't lock first, as according to him these values (or 7/7, 8/8, etc) don't indicate a 50-50 brake distribution. That's why I asked to replicate my test.
 
I've been driving without ABS from the start and I haven't really noticed anything (though it took me a long long time to even notice any difference between online and offline physics so what do I know).

I guess you can step on it a bit more and as others have said maybe the difference is more noticeable with 5/5 brake balance but I always use 4/1.

Atleast now I can say with total confidence that having ABS 0 doesn't really slow you down atleast not on the nürburgring (maybe on other tracks which are more stop-start you might lose some time and it's certainly more difficult to keep your braking consistent). Yesterday we were having stock Toyota 86 GT races and if anything I caught up to people while braking and I didn't use ABS all night.

It's hard to explain but somehow it's easier to feel when the wheels are about to lock. Dunno how that's even possible but definitely an improvement.
 
Awesome test Akira....havent tried it myself but I believe you.

I think ABS 0 was made slightly easier due to dualshock controllers. Playing ABS 0 with a DS3 was incredibly hard before....its still hard now but definitely manageable.
 
OK8
It's hard to explain but somehow it's easier to feel when the wheels are about to lock. Dunno how that's even possible but definitely an improvement.
Click to expand...
New tire sounds I think are part of this improvement. It's easier to tell when they are about to lock when braking with the ABS disabled.
 
I too found it rather easy to drive without ABS last night. The new grip model combined with better sounds makes it easier to tell when the brakes are about to lock up. I was racing with a few mates with ABS disabled for the room so it was rather hairy going into the first corner of GVE (hairpin from a slight curve over a crest. Braking point is usually at the top of the crest for us with ABS) with 4 rather heavy muscle cars. No ABS is fun though.

In relation to the rear locking before the fronts do, in theory, the back should lock before the front. Under heavy braking, all the weight is pushed to the front wheels and the back wheels become unloaded and as we know, when tyres are unloaded, they tend to like the idea of locking up. So yes, in theory, the back should lock up before the front do under rather heavy braking. If someone could perform a test to confirm this it would be gratly appreciated...
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
New tire sounds I think are part of this improvement. It's easier to tell when they are about to lock when braking with the ABS disabled.
Click to expand...

I was all set to post that the louder sounds could have a lot to do with it, then I deleted it. The sound is incredibly important in sim driving with no feeling. One of the areas I'd err on the side of better results rather than pure absolute realism every time. You need to hear your tires every whisper, as well as the cars near you.
 
Nismo34
[...]know, when tyres are unloaded, they tend to like the idea of locking up. So yes, in theory, the back should lock up before the front do under rather heavy braking. If someone could perform a test to confirm this it would be gratly appreciated...
Click to expand...

You might not have noticed it, but in post #12 I've written instructions for such test. Please try and report. In my case rear tires clearly locked up first with a 5/5 brake distribution.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
So CSLACR, haven't you tested this yet? You should have read my message by now, since you've written in other threads.
Can other users confirm my findings on ABS (= that with a 5/5 distribution rear tires lock first) by performing the test described above?
Click to expand...

I will give it a shot, again. But I will not change from the default tires of a car, that would be against the principles of stock testing.
Stock means stock to me, if PD believes a car needs CM to perform equal to it's real life counterpart, then that's what they should have fit, no excuses. But that's another subject.
 
Nismo34
In relation to the rear locking before the fronts do, in theory, the back should lock before the front. Under heavy braking, all the weight is pushed to the front wheels and the back wheels become unloaded and as we know, when tyres are unloaded, they tend to like the idea of locking up. So yes, in theory, the back should lock up before the front do under rather heavy braking. If someone could perform a test to confirm this it would be greatly appreciated...
Click to expand...

Isn't that the point. Normally the rear locks first so you want to adjust the brake balance so that the front locks slightly before the rear.

And if anyone doesn't think a car locks up it's rears first you should try the Ford GT MKIV
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
That's because 5/5 meant a 50/50 brake distribution with an arbitrary braking power of "5" for both axles. The brake distribution was meant to be changed without the ABS enabled.

Now, what is 5/5 supposed to mean? Normally, putting 50% of the braking force on the rear axle of a normal car (say, 55/45 weight distribution) would cause severe oversteer in real life. If this isn't happening anymore, either PD have dumbed down the driving model or altered distribution values to a way that now they don't represent anymore the actual brake distribution.
Click to expand...

Why don't thought GT5 "Brake Balance Controller" actual name are "Brake Power Controller"?

In fact this act like Power Controller more than Balance Controller...

(before 2.00... I were set 0:0 for my GT-R 500 Stealth to avoid Wheels Lock)
 
CSLACR
I will give it a shot, again. But I will not change from the default tires of a car, that would be against the principles of stock testing.
Stock means stock to me, if PD believes a car needs CM to perform equal to it's real life counterpart, then that's what they should have fit, no excuses. But that's another subject.
Click to expand...
To be sure, I tested with CS tires and the same happens (rear tires lock before front ones with a 5/5 braking power), although it is probably marginally less easy (since you need to brake more) than with CM tires. Of course, you will still have to pay attention in order to not lock both axles at the same time by pushing the brake control all the way down. By doing this, you'd get understeer and heat locked front tires more than the rears due to load difference. This is probably the reason why you thought that a 5/5 brake power distribution isn't equal for both axles.

TCSdisable
Why don't thought GT5 "Brake Balance Controller" actual name are "Brake Power Controller"?

In fact this act like Power Controller more than Balance Controller...
Click to expand...
Most of the text you quoted from me above is from when I still didn't check if after patch 2.02 a 5/5 brake power was actually equal for both axles. As people were saying that 5/5 became easier to manage, I thought that PD altered the corresponding brake distribution to something reflecting real life stock settings. It turned out it wasn't the case, as I've written a few messages later.
(before 2.00... I were set 0:0 for my GT-R 500 Stealth to avoid Wheels Lock)
Click to expand...
Wheel lock isn't something you have to avoid at all costs, provided that it happens only when you squeeze your brake controller/pedal to the maximum or to pressure values you can manage. If your brakes aren't able to lock wheels at all in the worst case (going uphill at high speeds, with aerodynamics adding load), then you can't be sure that you're braking efficiently.
 
SHIRAKAWA Akira
Wheel lock isn't something you have to avoid at all costs, provided that it happens only when you squeeze your brake controller/pedal to the maximum or to pressure values you can manage. If your brakes aren't able to lock wheels at all in the worst case (going uphill at high speeds, with aerodynamics adding load), then you can't be sure that you're braking efficiently.
Click to expand...

For me, GT5 brake simulation way too simple.

This isn't simulate inertia about the wheels and didn't simulated cooling for Engine or brake.

What problem there?
The Brake performance way TOO powerful.

Without inertia and temperature issue. The Calipers could catch the braking disc and locking it very quickly, whatever this is faster car or slow car...

Also.. the ABS system to me are needing renewal.
Level 1 already solve most Braking problem, Level 2 or above are means less...


Seriously, production GT5 game performs are real far from old GT5 Demo for game shows....
 
Brake fading (heating/cooling cycle) isn't simulated, together with differences among different braking systems, but I think that wheel inertia somewhat is (I don't know how accurately, however).
It's slightly harder to lock wheels at higher speeds than it is at lower ones. This is something I noticed in the braking tests on Top Gear Test Track that I described a few posts ago.
 
Yeah there are things missing like brake fade and simulation of inertia isn't quite as good as LFS. In LFS at high speeds you can confidently step on the brake completely (if you do it smoothly) without the wheels locking up (this of course depends on the settings) and then as you decelerate to a lower speed you have to lift your foot to prevent locking.

On the other hand I think braking in Gt5 right now is really good. I even had to raise the brake power of my AE86 to 5/2 (normally I use 4/1 on all cars) because I felt I could afford to have more brake force without lock up. Now braking with the car feels really good and the limit at which the fronts lock up is so predictable I can almost feel it with my feet. It also feels similar to LFS where at first I can really almost floor the brake but as I decelerate I have to pull my foot back up again slightly to stop the fronts locking.

I've been hosting "ROADCARS NO ABS" -room for the last couple days and we've had brilliant races. :)
 
I don't want my cars (F1, Super GT, or just a Street car) lock up when I apply 100% Brakes during 200 km/h.

I know F1 could stop in 2 sec. but included Lock up?)

Let try a little test :

Set ABS 1, Brake Balance 0:0 or 10:10
Find any car running in any circuit. Full speed and brakes remarked Brake point.

We will found 0:0 braking distance is longer than 10:10, what this means?
The reason why I called "Brake Balance Controller" is "Brake Power Controller".

Brake balancer in GT5 set 0:0 and 10:10 in GT5, when the Front or Rear value are same, that means brake bias is 50% :50%. No, that's seriously NOT!

The actual means is the how strong the calipers power!

Wanna actual brake bias? Calculate by yourself~
I sure these 121 set of assemble are couldn't provide a perfect Brake Bias, but power management.

Let's Looking to Richard Burns Rally, This allowed you set up Brake Power in 0 KPa to 10000 kPa of each brake, but this game has calculate brake bias what happen when you tune the brakes every clicks. I think GT5 could reference to it.
 
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