Survey on Morality: Part 1

  • Thread starter Sach
  • 42 comments
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Is the molestation of children by accountable adults innately wrong?

  • Yes. It is innately 'wrong' to do such a thing.

    Votes: 58 84.1%

  • It is wrong only because there exist laws defining it as such.

    Votes: 1 1.4%

  • It may or may not be wrong. (With acknolwedgment of the laws defining it as illegal.)

    Votes: 6 8.7%

  • It is not something that is innately 'wrong'.

    Votes: 4 5.8%
  • Total voters
    69
S

Sach

1,417
Afghanistan
Afghanistan
* As far as I am aware, this thread is acceptable for discussion based on the guidelines I have just re-read in the AUP.



There seem to be a slew of stories in the media currently which are dealing with the molestation of adolescents/young adults by their coaches/sporting authority figures. Additionally, certain church affiliations, celebrities, and other public figures have also been indicted in similarly sensational instances of sexually-perverse transgressions being on display in the media.


Traditionally, the public has often called for very harsh punishments against sexual misconduct among reprehensible adults. Often the stigma associated with such crimes has to do with the perceived "innocence" of children and adolescents, leading to the desire to see the offenders receive a strict punishment.


As a means of gathering statistical data to formulate a better understanding of the sense of behavioral commonality and desire for moral justice that we might share as humans, I encourage you to participate in this poll.



Edit: All poll responses are anonymous.
 
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I voted yes, but with the caveat that you haven't really defined "children." I believe that up to a certain age, it is innately wrong to have (or even desire) sexual contact with children.

Then we get to the fuzzy area when a person enters physical sexual maturity. If a person has physically developed an adult body, I don't think there is an innate wrongness in desiring that person. The wrong part would then be strictly due to violating a person's free will by forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

At what point in physical development does this line appear? Should emotional development also be considered? These questions are hard to answer, but feel very important to the issue at hand.
 
huskeR32
I voted yes, but with the caveat that you haven't really defined "children." I believe that up to a certain age, it is innately wrong to have (or even desire) sexual contact with children.
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Understandably some of this is a slippery slope. In a way I am trying to find out if that 'wrong' age exists for some people, whether it is an agreed upon age or not, and what point they would choose to define it.

Thanks for your reply.
 
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huskeR32
I voted yes, but with the caveat that you haven't really defined "children." I believe that up to a certain age, it is innately wrong to have (or even desire) sexual contact with children.

Then we get to the fuzzy area when a person enters physical sexual maturity. If a person has physically developed an adult body, I don't think there is an innate wrongness in desiring that person. The wrong part would then be strictly due to violating a person's free will by forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

At what point in physical development does this line appear? Should emotional development also be considered? These questions are hard to answer, but feel very important to the issue at hand.
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This. ^
 
:mischievous:

I voted "not innately wrong". I don't believe there is such thing as objective, innate wrongness. Everything in the universe is just a collection of atoms (or strings, or stuffs of some kind) in one big chain of action and reaction.

Subjectively from an arrogant human standpoint, I find child molestation wrong. But we're not just insignificant in the grand scheme of things, we're actually of zero significance. We just personally believe otherwise.
 
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There's also mental development to consider, too. Just because someone has reached physical maturity doesn't guarantee that they are mentally mature too. I'm pretty sure there are horror stories out there of mentally handicapped children being abused.
 
'Tis a tricky subject, the fact is the law is black and white, but the morality of it isn't. In modern society we must live by the laws of the land or be prepared to face the consequences if we don't. Is a 45 year old attempting to have sex with an 8 year old wrong? yes I totally believe it is,.... but as a 16 year old, was I having sexually orientated thoughts about girls in my class at school that may or may not have already had their sixteenth birthday?, and would I have acted upon any opportunity given?, yes and hell yes. So, if you have to put in place stead fast rules.. how do you do that? base it on each individual, their emotional development, their physical development? Impossible.

So what do you do?.... Lay down the law, and enforce it. There is no other option, and whether it's is wrong or right, people have to accept they will be judged and punished if they choose to disregard it - the same applies from child abuse to speeding tickets and software pirates.
 
huskeR32
I voted yes, but with the caveat that you haven't really defined "children." I believe that up to a certain age, it is innately wrong to have (or even desire) sexual contact with children.

Then we get to the fuzzy area when a person enters physical sexual maturity. If a person has physically developed an adult body, I don't think there is an innate wrongness in desiring that person. The wrong part would then be strictly due to violating a person's free will by forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

At what point in physical development does this line appear? Should emotional development also be considered? These questions are hard to answer, but feel very important to the issue at hand.
Click to expand...

This more or less. But I've not yet voted, as I feel some of that should be clarified a bit more, mostly in regard to what defines a child.

It is however wrong to rob someone of free will, regardless.
 
huskeR32
I voted yes, but with the caveat that you haven't really defined "children." I believe that up to a certain age, it is innately wrong to have (or even desire) sexual contact with children.

Then we get to the fuzzy area when a person enters physical sexual maturity. If a person has physically developed an adult body, I don't think there is an innate wrongness in desiring that person. The wrong part would then be strictly due to violating a person's free will by forcing them to do something they don't want to do.

At what point in physical development does this line appear? Should emotional development also be considered? These questions are hard to answer, but feel very important to the issue at hand.
Click to expand...

Pretty much what i think. Thats why i took the last option as long as its a certain age and maturity.
 
If we define molestation as doing something sexual to someone against their will, then it is wrong, no matter the age, and should be severely punished. What is debatable is what should be considered as being against someone's will, and that needs to be judged on a case by case basis. For example, I would have a really difficult time calling a 20 year old guy who was seduced by a 15 year old girl at a party a pedophile, but the laws of many countries would automatically assign that label to him, even if the girl was the one who "started it."
 
If we are talking actual molestation then I consider it morally wrong, children or adult.

If we are talking having consensual sex, then we enter the grey area. Is a child really able to consent to sex? I honestly can't tell.
 
That's exactly where the problem is though. Even if a child claims to consent, can it really understand what it's consenting to? Can a child have enough intelligence and knowledge to actually be able to consent?

I guess that's why the law gives it a minimum age. It's a safety line, so to speak. It assumes anyone over that age has enough life experience to consent. Of course that is an over-simplification of the matter, since people can reach this stage before or even after the age stipulated by the law. I don't exactly think the law is wrong however... what would be the alternative? Have everyone consult a psychologist to receive their "sex permit"?
 
Dravonic
That's exactly where the problem is though. Even if a child claims to consent, can it really understand what it's consenting to? Can a child have enough intelligence and knowledge to actually be able to consent?

I guess that's why the law gives it a minimum age. It's a safety line, so to speak. It assumes anyone over that age has enough life experience to consent. Of course that is an over-simplification of the matter, since people can reach this stage before or even after the age stipulated by the law. I don't exactly think the law is wrong however... what would be the alternative? Have everyone consult a psychologist to receive their "sex permit"?
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't think any great mental harm would be inflicted upon a consenting individual, even if they may not fully comprehend the function or possible consequences of the act. Thus I think the best thing to do would be to just protect them from the consequences.

Transmitting an STD knowingly to someone under the age of 18, regardless of whether you informed them of it and they still consented, should be illegal.

Likewise, anyone under 18 should be required to get an abortion if impregnated, unless they want to keep it and has someone like a guardian who is willing and able to take care of it for them. To expand, perhaps this should be extended to all ages in some form. If you are simply incapable of taking proper care of a child, then you shouldn't be having them...

If the pregnancy is too far along for abortion, then obviously adoption would be the next step.
 
I voted yes.

But, like huske wrote before me, it depends on age. A 17 year old is legally considered a child still at least in Sweden, and it's obvious that you can show consent in that age.

Although I wouldn't go as far as to say that those feelings are wrong, since it's not something that a pedophile can help. Acting them out though is, in most cases.

Can children claim consent? Maybe. It's quite a difficult question. I'm sure there are children who've had positive sexual experiences but at the same time it's very obvious that there are a majority who've had their lives totally ruined by it. And that carries the most weight and is one of the reasons why it should still be forbidden.

There are people who claim that a lot of the harm comes from society's condemnation of the act. That the child in some cases didn't get hurt by the sex, but from the guilt associated with the act. I'm sure those cases exist too.

A difficult subject that tends to go very emotional.
 
Define "molestation", "children", "adults" and "accountable adults".
 
Famine
Define "molestation", "children", "adults" and "accountable adults".
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^this.

I feel it would be immoral for anybody to have sex with an immature person. If both have reached sexual maturity, well, it depends on the specifics of the case.


We could also add gender to the mix here, I think. We'd probably all agree that it would be immoral for a 25 year old male teacher to have sex with a 15 year old female student. But what about a 15 year old male having sex with a 25 year old female? I'm ignoring of course that it would be considered immoral for any teacher-student intimate relationship regardless of ages here.

I likewise feel it comes down to informed consent. If both (or all) parties give informed consent, then it's okay. Which does bring up the question of just what is informed consent, and who is able to give it?
 
BobK
^this.


We'd probably all agree that it would be immoral for a 25 year old male teacher to have sex with a 15 year old female student. But what about a 15 year old male having sex with a 25 year old female?
Click to expand...

What would be the difference?
 
BobK
We could also add gender to the mix here, I think. We'd probably all agree that it would be immoral for a 25 year old male teacher to have sex with a 15 year old female student. But what about a 15 year old male having sex with a 25 year old female?
Click to expand...

Now you're just adding sexism to the mix. Why is a 25 year old male able to force a 15 year old female into having sex but not the other way around?

It really is a case by case matter, gender plays no definite role here.
 
Encyclopedia
What would be the difference?
Click to expand...

Technically nothing, but often the female is considered the partner that has to give consent, so even though the 15/25 situation is the same regardless of the gender split, there's a cultural difference if it's a young male/older female.

Ironically, a 15 year old female is likely to be more developed than a 15 year old male both physically and emotionally, which makes it less biologically "wrong" even it's morally dubious.
 
^ Poor choice of words on my part. I meant tricking, deceiving, taking advantage of the youngster's gullibility.
 
homeforsummer
Technically nothing, but often the female is considered the partner that has to give consent, so even though the 15/25 situation is the same regardless of the gender split, there's a cultural difference if it's a young male/older female.

Ironically, a 15 year old female is likely to be more developed than a 15 year old male both physically and emotionally, which makes it less biologically "wrong" even it's morally dubious.
Click to expand...

I know. I just find it strange why society treats them different when it's the same thing and one can be as harmful/not harmful as the other.

It doesn't make sense since forcing is forcing no matter gender. And the boys are stronger argument doesn't necessarily apply either since there are other ways of forcing and manipulating people.

I'm not arguing with you btw. Just expanding. :)
 

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