Porsche 911 alternatives

  • Thread starter Conza
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Really? You're still persisting with the death trap crap?

It's pretty simple: you drive a car within its limits. Any car can come off the road in spectacular fashion if you drive it too quick for the conditions. Yes, earlier 911s are renowned for being snappy at the limit, but the limit is pretty chuffing high in the first place.

On the road, most people, most of the time, get absolutely nowhere near the limits of cars like 911s. Even older, snappier ones. If you're so scared of going out on the road in an old 911, it's probably more of a sign that you're not really capable of driving one, rather than that the car is somehow dangerous.

And if a 911 is too much to handle, then honestly I'd not really be looking for alternatives, as any car with that sort of power is likely to be a liability in the same hands.
 
Conza
Any Porsche before a 99 '6' imo, is a death trap, hell turn the safety controls off in the 996, 997 or 991 and despite the better airbags, and what not, if you're travelling fast enough you'll still die.

But the 993 doesn't even have that luxury, so I think it'd be an insane buy.
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If you're travelling fast enough in any car you'll still die in the event of an accident, whether it's a 911, GT-R, or any other car mentioned.
 
Pfft. All an old 911 needs is wider rear tires. Takes care of all "dangerous" "snap-oversteer" moments.
 
homeforsummer
Really? You're still persisting with the death trap crap?

It's pretty simple: you drive a car within its limits. Any car can come off the road in spectacular fashion if you drive it too quick for the conditions. Yes, earlier 911s are renowned for being snappy at the limit, but the limit is pretty chuffing high in the first place.

On the road, most people, most of the time, get absolutely nowhere near the limits of cars like 911s. Even older, snappier ones. If you're so scared of going out on the road in an old 911, it's probably more of a sign that you're not really capable of driving one, rather than that the car is somehow dangerous.

And if a 911 is too much to handle, then honestly I'd not really be looking for alternatives, as any car with that sort of power is likely to be a liability in the same hands.
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Amen.
 
GTR's are becoming popular, but if it's my choice I'd say the Aston Martin V8 Vantage S or the Audi R8 4.2 Quattro.

If he has the price range of a Porsche 991 911 Turbo (I know it's not out) I'd also then recommend the bigger brothers of those two cars; the V12 Vantage and the 5.2 V10 Quattro.
 
Conza
Any Porsche before a 99 '6' imo, is a death trap, hell turn the safety controls off in the 996, 997 or 991 and despite the better airbags, and what not, if you're travelling fast enough you'll still die.

But the 993 doesn't even have that luxury, so I think it'd be an insane buy.
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My dad owns a 1984 911, and its true, the rear does let go from time to time. But isnt that what carenthousiasts love?
Well, i do.. And compared to an 1984 911, a 993 drives very smooth and fun. If u want safety buy a Carrera 4 and if u want luxury buy a Audi A8..
If u want an everyday driverscar that you dont see every 5 minutes ( like early Porsches) please buy a 993 Turbo (s)
 
Conza
Any Porsche before a 99 '6' imo, is a death trap, hell turn the safety controls off in the 996, 997 or 991 and despite the better airbags, and what not, if you're travelling fast enough you'll still die.

But the 993 doesn't even have that luxury, so I think it'd be an insane buy.
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I think this says enough right there about just how much you think you understand about Porsches.
 
Yes yes yes, I was referring to the 911 series only, not the 924, 944, 964 or anything else before the 996 911, and I did state it as an opinion, albeit a popular one supported by many facts and people. No not every single 993 driver has died, or anything like that but the technology that really started saving that snap oversteer problem came with the 996.
 
marluxiaXI11
:odd: That is very incorrect.
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No, that is very correct. The weight balance of the 911 leads it to have inherent understeer, especially close to the limit of grip. The way that drivers are able to throw 911s into corners and rotate the car around the way that you see is because of, as Scaff described, the lift-off oversteer that the chassis presents. The car will try to bring the back end around on lift-off as the weight transfers toward the front of the car, because the engine effectively acts as a pendulum on a lever arm (the chassis) acting on the rear wheels. This leads to slip on the rear as the weight of the engine attempts to continue in a straight line as the front wheels are attempting to turn the car.
Without the lift-off weight transfer, this weight balancing trends toward understeer, especially if you are on the power, shifting even more weight towards the back of the car. It leaves the front tires with very little load on them, and thus very little grip, which leads to understeer.

This is hardly the 'uncontrollable death trap' that some of the other members here have presented, and I strongly suspect that most people presenting it that way have never even been in a 911, let alone driven one at the limit on a track. I track my '72 quite often, and I can safely say that I have never had an incident that was caused by anything other than me overdriving the car.
Of course, the penalty for overdriving a 911 is usually spinning, where in a lot of other cars the penalty would be understeering wide, but at the end of everything, it is as simple as the driver overdriving the car. No amount of "better" weight balance or "safer" design will save you if you are too stupid to drive the car within its limitations. The only thing that could have any hope of saving you in that situation is a computerized aid, and I pretty sure even the 911 has those by now :sly:


EDIT: I have just realized that this thread has gotten massively off-topic, and my post isn't helping anything :lol:

So, back to the original question, has the person who was buying a car made a choice yet? There have been some very good suggestions in this thread, and I'm curious what car was/will be purchased in the end?
 
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I've read this thread and I'm still not clear why he doesn't want a 911...and Conza what does he think is the best suggestion in this thread? Has he considered any?
 
aadil717
I've read this thread and I'm still not clear why he doesn't want a 911...and Conza what does he think is the best suggestion in this thread? Has he considered any?
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I think perhaps my OP should be updated, but I'll once again respond to this question (though I thought I answered it before, anyway).

This friend of mine, woke up the other day and for some reason, decided he wanted a 991, not in the immediate future, probably the next 12-18 months somewhere (when his current car is due to expire on the lease or something).

When I heard this, I was disappointed, and thought 'No! Not a 911, c'mon how boring, is it really the only car of its type that you can live with every day, blah blah blah' I suggested to him BMWs, Aston Martins, Jaguars, amongst a few other things, and his past experiences (particularly having owned 6-7 BMWs or something) and research made him say none of my suggestions were valid opponents - but as you do when you have more than 2 brain cells, you investigate every option anyway, then rule them all out one by one, with the likely chance of returning to your original selection.

So I thought, this is a forum full of car people, lets see what they think, I can't in my right mind, say that the 911 is a bad car, I just think its a little boring, a bit obvious, almost mainstream if it weren't so expensive (especially in Australia).

I realise that the OP was meant to be updated with a list of yes's and no's, so I'll do that shortly, but while I think there are many alternatives personally, my friend may never be convinced of anything else (despite knowing he'll be looking at all of the alternatives he dismissed from me anyway), but I wanted to be sure I could think of all the alternatives anyway, and if there's something obvious I missed, then I may query that.
 
Tell your friend to get himself a Singer Porsche imported:

Porsche-Singer-911-12.jpg

072011-singer-porsche-911-umbauamsmdb5176861.jpg


Why? Because they're friggin' awesome.

On a serious note, from what you've written, the 991 seems like a perfect fit for what your friend wants. Out of all the possible alternatives, I'd go with the Audi R8. The 5.2 in particular. Probably one of the very few cars I'd pick over a Porsche in a similar price bracket.
 
You know, other than the V8 Vantage S, I'd go for the 991.

I don't care how people view or judge me if I'm driving a 911, it's a 911 man!!
 
If the guy wants a Porsche who are you to tell him otherwise? Not your money, car or problem.

My 2 cents on the table.
 
MildAshers
If the guy wants a Porsche who are you to tell him otherwise? Not your money, car or problem.

My 2 cents on the table.
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Well as a friend, he obviously wants best for him - and Conza doesn't really like Porsches I think? Which is why this thread is here.

Just like my friend - he had an Audi S5 for a few years and wanted to move up to a C63 AMG, but I told him to try the M3 (after all there's no harm in trying and checking out the options) so now there's an M3 sitting on his drive. :P
 
marluxiaXI11
:odd: That is very incorrect.
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No its not.

The 911 (and all RR cars for that matter) will understeer initially, if you don't see that then to be a bit blunt you don't understand vehicle dynamics.

However if you don't want to take my work for it, then have a read of this:





The book its from:


The handbook of the Porsche driving school.

So no I'm not "very incorrect", quite the opposite.
 
Heh, funnily enough he drove a standard one, made a phone call and it was too loud (remember he did buy an 911 996, and I think it was an S in the early 00s), so he's moved on to another completely uninteresting, not even same category of car.

Still interested, I mean has anyone done a R8 V10 vs 911 S? Not sure if they're the same match from each manufacturer, price/specs, but anyway.

EDIT: Scaff, what year was this published? Any year before the release of the 997 and it might be considered a little dated (relative to Porsche's RRs anyway).

EDIT 2: I thought Porsche had cured the natural understeer and added artificial understeer to make the car safer? As you say after the weight issue is solved with suspension, its an aerodynamic issue, which I thought they would've as well, so do they now understeer now only by design?
 
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Some 991 competitors... R8 (V8... the V10 is 911 Turbo money), V8 Vantage, forthcoming M6 (though not seen any pricing for this yet), Masser GT, GTR... all will have their own relative strengths/weaknesses compared to a 911.

For me, I'd definitely look at the R8, it's a superb car.

Regarding how 911's drive... there are too many armchair drives and magazine readers out there who have little or no real world experience of 911's and therefore no idea what they are talking about. The natural handling balance of 911's is understeer, which can be overcome in a number of ways;

In slow corners, trail braking works well on turn in, and plenty of throttle works on the exit... in a 996 for example, it's relatively easy to get to a neutral steering angle on corner exits, but you do need to be very careful in the wet. Ideally, you want to be at the apex with minimum steering angle from where you can get hard on the throttle and feel the car want to straighten towards the exit. If you're too gentle with the throttle you'll likely get understeer.

Long, fast corners are where most people get in to trouble with 911's and here they require a lot more care and a good understanding of weight transfer and relative tyre loading both front to rear and across the axles. Understeer tends to build quite quickly in this type of corner, and the natural reaction is to add lock, up to the point you realise you still might not make the apex/exit. At this point, if you lift to tighten the line without 1st reducing the steering lock, all 911's will oversteer to some extent as you come off the gas and weight transfers forwards... and given just how much grip even a modestly tyred 996 has, this will naturally be at high speed. Trust me, momentum oversteer in a 911 at high speed is NOT something you ever want on the public road.

A 911 will not oversteer on a constant, balanced throttle... it will only oversteer if you lift off or brake with lock applied... or if given a massive bootfull on the exit.

To be honest, all this talk of understeer and oversteer is a bit silly though. Even a base 996 on 225/40, 265/35's has so much mechanical grip that if you're sliding them on a public road you should probably have your license taken away.
 
Conza
EDIT: Scaff, what year was this published? Any year before the release of the 997 and it might be considered a little dated (relative to Porsche's RRs anyway).
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Vehicle dynamics and the laws of physics haven't dated in the time since that book was published.


Conza
EDIT 2: I thought Porsche had cured the natural understeer and added artificial understeer to make the car safer? As you say after the weight issue is solved with suspension, its an aerodynamic issue, which I thought they would've as well, so do they now understeer now only by design?
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Porsche never attempted to cure the cars base desire to understeer on the limit, the has worked to minimise the 911's core desire to spin if you lift off while understeering.

The weight issue has not been solved by suspension, because to be honest with you it can't. Ride height will move the CoG a little, but not enough to 'cure' a 911's lift off oversteer (wheelbase, track width and better tyres have all helped but you can't 'cure' it). They manage it now electronically, which is why if you turn all the aids off on one it will still bite you if you back off suddenly at speed while understeering.

Its one of the reasons why you have to adapt how you drive to a 911 and not try and force the car to adapt to you. A slow in and fast out approach is still the way to go, as it uses the cars traits to work with you. Throw a 911 into a corner too fast and it will understeer (still to this day) back off and either the electronics will save you or not (depending on if you switched them off or not).
 
Five pages of this and nobody has mentioned this?

Morgan Roadster 3.7
Morgan-Roadster_2012_1024x768_wallpaper_02.jpg


Less than 1000kg with 280hp.

Starts at a little more than $10,000 less than the least expensive 911. This leaves you budget to get that glorious walnut dashboard (~$650).

Or you can get one of the more basic Morgans for style and then buy an Ariel Atom (Or other track car) for race and still spend less than you would for a good 911 with options.
 
Zenith013
Five pages of this and nobody has mentioned this?

Morgan Roadster 3.7
Morgan-Roadster_2012_1024x768_wallpaper_02.jpg
Click to expand...

Lovely car if you're in to that sort of thing (EVO have one on long term test at the moment), but a Mogan is not really suitable as a daily driver unless you're properly comitted!
 

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