Photo Finish Racing - 2.10 How-To Updates/Amendments

Can you make a cerbera speed 12 for online nordshleife?

Marcelo1994

Can you make a cerbera speed 12 for online nordshleife?

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I've been meaning to for a while now, someone asked for one a while back, I'll see what I can do with it.

Wing or no wing? (I suggest a wing if possible)

carracerptp

Sorry, but the car in the picture you posted is not an RUF Yellowbird.
It's an RUF Redbird.

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Pretty much wrote this off as attempted humor. Moving on................

I once ran with a buddy round the ring driving a Speed 12. The car is a beast, but it almost killed my buddy. He was completely burnt by the time we finished one lap of a two lap run round Nurburgring. He was using the G27 wheel, with level 10 resistance.

The Speed 12 is heavy. And every bit of that weight is transmitted to the driver through the wheels force feedback. You have to work to drive this car. But it is second to no car in speed especially at the ring. I think my friend was running sport soft.

Properly tuned however, the Speed 12 has few peers. It's really a monster ride.
I think CSLACR can properly tune and harness this monster. And it may indeed be possible to capture the beast now due to GT5's change in physics.

I agree, the speed 12 can be a handful, and can wear a driver out. CLSACR, I'm sure, could make the car enjoyable to drive 👍

One thing though. I don't think 1020kg is really heavy for a car

krenkme

One thing though. I don't think 1020kg is really heavy for a car

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I suppose that he meant it "feels" heavy. (with steering wheel)

dr_slump

I suppose that he meant it "feels" heavy. (with steering wheel)

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Ha, you're probably right. Then yes, it can feel heavy

You guy's were too kind. I did not remember the weight of the Speed 12. So I did mis-speak about that. However, it does "FEEL" very heavy.

I sold mine long ago simply because I could not manage it.

I've seen drivers actually win at the "Ring" driving that thing. And my hat is off to those drivers

I am going to get the next one (Speed 12) I see at the UCD. Would love for PD to make it a premium.👍

I love the look of it. It's just driving it that kills me....

Blood*Specter

Pretty much wrote this off as attempted humor. Moving on................

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We know each other, it's cool.

Ironically, I actually had Redbird typed in to call it that, but decided to call it by the name it's commonly known by instead.

How I start tuning a car:​

Start - To start, I go through available parts and see what is available, based on what's available I'll buy everything I think I want before I hit the track, it's always a pain to have to run back out for an engine stage or weight reduction once you're tuning.
Take it online, preferably on a more over-steery course like Laguna Seca, GVS, Nurburgring, etc, for any tunes that I want to work everywhere, these tracks contain certain over-steer inducing corners that will show flaws that will not show on smooth un-banked tracks like Motegi.
Settings - 1st time in...
Aero: Depends on the aero available. If it's a street car running the typical 0-20 or generally any rear-biased down force as usual I'll start with minimum or close to it. It also depends if I'm aiming for PP or fixed HP/WT, etc. If it's fixed regulations max aero is probably fastest, and you'll save lap times by running max aero and doing extra suspension work to make the car rotate.
If it's a race car, I always start at max aero for almost any track when the PP is higher than 620, below that it's more of a guessing game if PP is the regulation, particularly on slower cars like GT300's.
On low powered street cars on PP regs, aero is almost never a good idea, for a rough guesstimation aero only starts to gain value on cars with at least 420PP, even then any possible gains would likely be small. 500PP on SH's is where you'll start to look more seriously into aero, but of course as tires change, aero needs change.

Chassis: I only add chassis stiffening to very loose cars, and on under-steering cars, I'll usually not refresh an old chassis either, the extra rotation gained from chassis flex is beneficial, not harmful to these cars.
Chassis refresh does NOT wear out for 3,000 miles!

Weight: Generally as low as possible, to 900KG's. On very low PP, more weight, allowing more power can be beneficial, but still no more than 1100KG's if possible usually. On some cars the weight might come in at "1037KG", on these I'll usually add a small amount of weight to the light side if they're lopsided, like a FF or RR. 1037 I would add 13KG to the light end, these small amounts play what I find to be a little stronger than they should impact on handling and behavior of the car.
The most critical element to weight is that if traction is an issue, it's never beneficial to remove weight from the drive wheels and add ballast to the other wheels. For example the RUF Yellowbird, one could apply weight reduction and add ballast to the front to make the car stock weight, but less over-steering. It works, but it removes acceleration grip from the rear tires, effectively making the car slower. Anything you gain from it gets cancelled out this way in my encounters. Of course if traction isn't a problem, have at it, just don't add weight unless you're required, or below the 900KG mark.

Engine: RPM adders give the most HP per PP, so I usually start with them. On some cars, high rpm turbos make for a great HP-PP gain as well. I only use engine stages for "maxed out" cars and when needed to reach a PP amount.
On some smaller engines, while the HP will increase more from RPM adders, the weakening of the already-poor power band is too much, and performance suffers. There are engine that yield better acceleration at a given PP using the non rpm adders to help the power band.
Low rpm turbos can be a good option for PP racing is some cases, I'm not sure mid rpm turbos are ever a good idea for PP racing though, superchargers rarely. (Assuming other parts can be used instead)

Transmission: Lower top speed slider to minimum, lower final drive until the gearing is as long as I want it. Sometimes I can't get the gearing long enough this way, so I'll reset to default, and set the top speed slider a bit higher so I have the speed I want when I lower the final drive again.
1st gear: Longer (Usually within 200 clicks of far left)
2nd: depends on first, if first was moved all the way left, 2nd will go about 100 clicks left, if first is shorter, 2nd will be shorter as well.
3rd: Almost always quicker, in the event of a long 2nd 3rd will stay put, usually 50-100 clicks right.
4th: Move until it shows on the graph as beginning at a slightly higher rpm than 3rd.
5th/6th: A little quicker than fourth.
6th/7th: Depending on the power band, if it's narrow the gears need to be specific for top speed, if it's wide I just set it as long (equal on graph) as the gear before it and make sure the car has enough gearing to run most any track.

LSD: I Start at 5/5/5 5/5/5 as free as possible, to feel the natural handling of the car. I'll raise this later once I have the suspension sorted by starting (usually) around 7/10/5 and rising. I usually raise in increments of 1 or 2 on the accel, and occasionally raising the initial by 1 as well.Example: 7/10/5 = Inside wheelspin - 7/12/5, = inside wheelspin - 8/13/5, until it's where it suits me. Generally speaking, if I can't decide between 2 close settings, I decide based on the car. Easy to drive - higher, harder to drive - lower.
The main causes for lower LSD settings are harder tire compound, lower mechanical grip(or massive power) and over-steer.
The causes to raise the LSD are softer tire compound, extra mechanical grip (by downforce or programming of PD), and under-steer.

Torque Dist: Depends on the power/weight, but if traction is needed I'll usually start at 25/75 or 70/30, if not probably 90/10.

Suspension: If I know what to expect from the car, I'll make a few small tweaks off the bat, but the almost "always" settings I start from are these...
Ride height: 0/0
Spring: I won't leave them looking stupid to start, example: FR-S/86, 10.5/3.5 - Helps it rotate, but there are more favorable ways, I started this at 10.0/6.0
Shock - Compression: Unless I already know the car will under or over-steer on acceleration, I leave these be, if they're high (7,8) I might lower them 1.
Shock - Extension: Unless I already know the car will under or over-steer on acceleration, I leave these be, if they're high (7,8) I might lower them 1.
ARB - Between 1/1-7/7 to start. Lighter car, less downforce, stiffer springs, etc, lower arb, and vice versa. The ARB is the most critical part in keeping your car from going crazy when you hit bumps or uneven surfaces, so I start with the lower guesstimate, I'd only start at 7/7 for a very flat track in a race car when I want absolute precision.

Camber: 2.0/1.0 - GT4 default, never a terrible setup. In more extreme cases where I expect under-over steer, 2.0/1.5 or 2.5/1.0, etc might be my starting point.
Toe: Usually 0.00/0.00 is my default. As always, if I expect over/under steer, I'll start at +0.10 or -0.10 on the rear.

Brakes: Usually 5/5, 4/6 or 6/4 if I expect problems.
ABS: Never higher than 1. Set it to off and you'll want to run BB in the 0-4 ranges, with a low rear.

TVR Speed 12


Any power level.
With/Without Wing.
Tires SH and up.

Aero:
35/80

Ballast - 0KG @ 50

Transmission:
Set top speed slider to minimum(149)
Set Final as desired. (I used 2.000)
4.460
3.365
2.620
2.100
1.740
1.440

LSD:
6/8/5

Suspension:
15/5
17.5/12.5
6/7
6/4
3/3

Camber/Toe:
3.0/1.0
-0.10/-0.60

BB: 6/4
ABS: 1

Additional variations:
Ballast 80KG @ 50 = 1100KG, though this can actually raise PP!!!
Aero - Without wing at 35/60

Without wing no ballast - Move rear toe to -0.45
Without wing 80KG @ 50 - Move rear toe to -0.30 (My personal favorite)
With wing and 80KG @ 50 - Move rear toe to -0.50

Scion FR-S '12


450-500PP
With wing.
Tires SH
500PP - All parts except chassis, ECU, sports cat. 342HP@96.5%

Aero:
0/14

Ballast - 0KG @ 0
Weight Stage 3/Hood/Windows 1092KG.

Transmission:
Set top speed slider to minimum(112)
Set Final as desired. (I used 2.850)
3.924
2.908
2.300
1.860
1.550
1.330

LSD:
7/15/5

Suspension:
5/10
10.8/7.2
7/4
3/5
3/3

Camber/Toe:
2.3/1.4
-0.05/-0.07

BB: 5/4
ABS: 1

Additional 500PP Variations:
SM Tires - Rear aero to 10, rear toe to -0.04
SS Tires - Rear aero to 5, rear toe to -0.02
Racing tires (all) Remove rear aero, rear toe to 0.00.
(Adjust as desired, of course)

500PP - Maxed: Aero at 0/20, rear toe between -0.10-0.15

I'm curious about something, hoping you can provide some info CSL.

I will admit my tuning skills are weak at best, non existent at worst. I rely almost exclusively on the gt5 tuning community for tunes.

In almost every tune I've pulled, the transmission settings involve some arcane procedure, ie, set the top speed at min, final gear at max, then set all gear ratios, to include the final. What is the purpose behind this?

Thanks in advance for any information.

Some nice work going on in here fella. I'm particularly liking the 'Additional Variations' edition to your latest builds. That'll prove invaluable to some people 👍

{Cy}

Dragonwhisky

I'm curious about something, hoping you can provide some info CSL.

I will admit my tuning skills are weak at best, non existent at worst. I rely almost exclusively on the gt5 tuning community for tunes.

In almost every tune I've pulled, the transmission settings involve some arcane procedure, ie, set the top speed at min, final gear at max, then set all gear ratios, to include the final. What is the purpose behind this?

Thanks in advance for any information.

Click to expand...

The top speed slider changers the relation of gears to one another. Using this technique, one can place the gear ratios as close as they could desire really.

Generally speaking, my gears are achievable without using "the tranny trick", but since I learned that a lower final drive = quicker acceleration, I've adapted my specific technique that I find easiest for players to install while keeping all the benefits possible from a transmission.

In other words, you could probably make my gears "normally", but it would be more work.

Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10


Stock - 550PP
Without wing.
Tires SH (Works well up to at least SS)
550PP - Full weight reduction, titanium racing exhaust

Aero:
N/A

Ballast - 0KG @ 0
Weight Stage 3/Hood/Windows 1362KG.

Transmission:
Set top speed slider to minimum, move one click right. (130)
Set Final as desired. (I used 2.500)
3.570
2.720
2.150
1.720
1.390
1.150

LSD:
9/16/5

Suspension:
2/5
10.6/10.2
6/6
4/5
3/3

Camber/Toe:
2.3/1.2
-0.06/-0.12

BB: 5/3
ABS: 1

Aston Martin V12 Vantage '10


555+PP
With wing.
Tires SS-RS (Works well with all)
555+PP - Full weight reduction, titanium racing exhaust, additional power adders to desired PP. (Up to max power)

Aero:
0/20

Ballast - 0KG @ 0
Weight Stage 3/Hood/Windows 1362KG.

Transmission:
Set top speed slider to minimum, move three clicks right. (143)
Set Final as desired. (I used 2.730)
3.300
2.490
1.970
1.580
1.280
1.030

LSD:
9/16/5

Suspension:
2/5
13.1/11.3
7/6
4/5
4/4

Camber/Toe:
2.4/1.3
-0.09/-0.19

BB: 5/3
ABS: 1

Racing Medium/Soft Tires: Change shocks to 7/6 5/5.

Acura NSX '91


Stock to Maxed.
Without wing.
Tires SH (Works lovely through RS)
500PP - Full weight reduction, all engine stages and most bolt-ons. PL around 97% is preferable.
Chassis rigidity installed

Aero:
N/A

Ballast - 0KG @ 0
Weight Stage 3/Hood/Windows 1131KG.

Transmission:
Set top speed slider to minimum(112)
Set Final as desired. (I used 2.600)
3.985
2.970
2.280
1.790
1.460

LSD:
8/11/5

Suspension:
-10/-2
8.8/10.9
6/7
5/4
3/5

Camber/Toe:
1.5/2.0
-0.17/+0.27

BB: 4/3
ABS: 1

Racing Tires - All versions:
Raise LSD accel until inside wheel stops spinning exiting corners as desired.

With Wing:
Aero @ 0/5 - Rear toe to +0.22
Aero @ 0/10 - Rear toe to +0.17
Aero @ 0/15 - Rear toe to +0.11
Aero @ 0/20 - Rear toe to +0.05

Maxed:No changes needed whatsoever, the aero keeps even SH's finding grip when maxed, it actually has less traction issues despite the added power over a 500PP setup..

Comments: Drives beautifully, shame it doesn't have any cornering grip. Lovely car to drive, just can't corner anything like the '02 Type R.

I just wanted to thank you CSLACR for your very descriptive and helpfull post in the OP, it's helped me understand alot about how I should be setting up my suspesnion to get the results I want, especially now after the latest physics change update, alot of my cars were left handling very strange.

Before I used to rely alot on excesive toe angles to combat under/oversteer, which would of course be killer on tyre wear, but now I finaly understand how to setup the dampers correctly i've been able to adjust alot of my cars to run with 0 toe. (or very minimal toe)

So a big thank you from me to you for the effort you put in. 👍

TVR Speed 12

Now all I have to do is find one in the UCD. Thanks CSL

Acura NSX '91

I have this car and have done the race mod. I really want to try this tune for both regular and race mod when available.

I've never been able to make much of the 91 NSX.

Maccer_42

I just wanted to thank you CSLACR for your very descriptive and helpfull post in the OP, it's helped me understand alot about how I should be setting up my suspesnion to get the results I want, especially now after the latest physics change update, alot of my cars were left handling very strange.

Before I used to rely alot on excesive toe angles to combat under/oversteer, which would of course be killer on tyre wear, but now I finaly understand how to setup the dampers correctly i've been able to adjust alot of my cars to run with 0 toe. (or very minimal toe)

So a big thank you from me to you for the effort you put in. 👍

Click to expand...

Thank you for saying thank you, my goal with this tuning "shop" is to show people how to make their cars drive as nicely for them as I can make them for myself.

Blood*Specter

Acura NSX '91

I have this car and have done the race mod. I really want to try this tune for both regular and race mod when available.

I've never been able to make much of the 91 NSX.

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It's not a fast car for it's PP or statistics by any means whatsoever. By physics, the specs of this car mean it should be fantastic, I have to assume it's the "old rubber" clause, combined with not being able to upgrade tire size.
Old cars had old rubber, and rubber has advanced exponentially over the past 21 years, cars also typically ran much skinnier tires than they do now.

My personal problem with it is that you can't drive a 20 year old car on 20 year old rubber today. Even if you preserved old tires for no apparent reason to intentionally drive on 20 year old tires, they'd wear out, and you'd instantly be transformed into better performance.
So the F40, Yellowbird, many older cars seem to have gotten jilted this way in my opinion.

Anyway, the RM NSX got basic testing, and it's probably just going to be a slight toe adjustment and maybe LSD tightening for all the extra grip. The suspension carried over from the road version seemed to work perfectly, but I started with the 0/20 aero setup, and the 0/10 setup is probably better suited to the racing aero. (Maxed, of course, (35/60) probably will make a low downforce version for PP racing if anyone dares.)

Acura NSX '91 RM


Chassis rigidity installed
Tires: Racing/Sports


Aero:
35/60

Ballast - 0KG @ 0
Racing Modification - 1045KG.

Transmission: (Set with all mods installed)
Set top speed slider to 124mph (2 clicks right from far left)
3.856
2.885
2.250
1.770
1.420
Set Final as desired. (I used 2.730)

LSD:
8/15/5 (raise accel at least 1 point for mediums, 2 for softs.)

Suspension:
-10/-2
9.7/12.0
6/7
5/4
3/5

Camber/Toe:
3.0/2.5
-0.17/+0.22

BB: 4/3
ABS: 1

Low downforce:
Aero @ 19/32 will keep the balance almost if not identical to full aero. For a 35/60 car, the balance is roughly 1/1.7, translating to 3/5.1, meaning for every 3 clicks of front downforce added, add 5 to the rear.

Comments: FYI - Installing an RM takes a car to 0.0 mile status regarding engine break-in.

Great tunes!

Your tuning advise was really good and easy to understand. Great job.

From : MGTA (Malaysia GT Academy)

CSLACR

The top speed slider changers the relation of gears to one another. Using this technique, one can place the gear ratios as close as they could desire really.

Generally speaking, my gears are achievable without using "the tranny trick", but since I learned that a lower final drive = quicker acceleration, I've adapted my specific technique that I find easiest for players to install while keeping all the benefits possible from a transmission.

In other words, you could probably make my gears "normally", but it would be more work.

Click to expand...

When you say "lower final drive" are you meaning a higher number value? Since I recall what few times I heard motorheads talking, a typical passenger car had final drives in the 2.6xx - 2.7xx range and if you wanted to take a car to the drag strip you would slap a 4.11 rear end in it. Does the "Final Drive" equate to the rear differential gear? Not sure if the number values in GT correspond to that old school information or not.

With this in mind would it be your advice, if a person wants rocket acceleration, to run the final to a higher value (lower gear) and stretch the individual gear ratios to a lower value (higher gear) to achieve/maintain the desired top speed? I'm sure there is some point where top speed will be sacrificed for acceleration and vice versa. I suspect finding that point is time consuming without knowing the engineering mathematics.

Why is it desirable to have the ratios "close"?

Thanks again for educating the newb. 👍

Dragonwhisky

When you say "lower final drive" are you meaning a higher number value? Since I recall what few times I heard motorheads talking, a typical passenger car had final drives in the 2.6xx - 2.7xx range and if you wanted to take a car to the drag strip you would slap a 4.11 rear end in it. Does the "Final Drive" equate to the rear differential gear? Not sure if the number values in GT correspond to that old school information or not.

With this in mind would it be your advice, if a person wants rocket acceleration, to run the final to a higher value (lower gear) and stretch the individual gear ratios to a lower value (higher gear) to achieve/maintain the desired top speed? I'm sure there is some point where top speed will be sacrificed for acceleration and vice versa. I suspect finding that point is time consuming without knowing the engineering mathematics.

Why is it desirable to have the ratios "close"?

Thanks again for educating the newb. 👍

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Lower numerically, you'll see almost every tune I have has the final drive close to or at the very far left.
The reason I do this specifically is because with the same overall gear length, two cars paired side-by-side, the car with longer larger individual gears and a smaller final drive will accelerate quicker, and if I'm not mistaken, also have a higher top speed.
The real world theory (it is unproven as far as I know, but a good theory) for running larger gears with a smaller final drive is that a single gear weighs significantly less than the driveaxle. Therefore, less rotating mass, = more power at the wheels, quicker acceleration.

In real life, a full blown crazy transmission with fully adjustable gears is quite expensive, so the general thing to do is install a quicker rear axle ratio. (final drive) Final drive and the "rear" are one and the same.

What quicker gears do by simply raising the final drive(numerically) is get the engine into the powerband sooner, and generally take some time off you 1/4 mile time. It's not as effective as gear replacement, nor close to it, but it's a start for the real world where the cost actually matters.

Close gears help for multiple reasons..
Close gears:
Reduce shifting time in GT5.
Give you more options for what gear to use for corners.
Keep your engine running closer to maximum power at all times while racing.

In my opinion, there is more time to gain in the transmission settings than any of the other tuning categories.
Depending on the car, there can be more time gained from a proper gearbox than the suspension, lsd, and bb combined.

Regarding acceleration vs top speed, I generally aim to have my car go past the peak power before the end of the longest straight on the track. On short tracks I'll generally make an exception, as too close of gearing makes for lost time shifting.
The reason I go past the peak power before the braking point is because if you hit peak power right at the end of the straight, you have to slam the brakes and never see the benefit. Running a couple hundred RPM past the peak gives you more power the whole way down the straight, except the last couple hundred feet, at which point any speed gained is not time gained, but rather extra speed you need to scrub off for the upcoming corner.

The easiest way is to simply use a 6 speed that's setup and capable of running tracks like Laguna Seca, Monaco, etc acting as a 5 speed. That's generally about where I aim to set my cars, so the transmission needs as little adjustment as possible.

Real world. Gear ratios of higher value act like a lever. The higher the number the less power needed to move. So a 2.73 gear take more power to move then a 3.73.

Dom I know you know this. Just adding to your previous post.

CSLACR

In my opinion, there is more time to gain in the transmission settings than any of the other tuning categories.
Depending on the car, there can be more time gained from a proper gearbox than the suspension, lsd, and bb combined.

Click to expand...

I smell a shootout.

CSLACR

Regarding acceleration vs top speed, I generally aim to have my car go past the peak power before the end of the longest straight on the track... That's generally about where I aim to set my cars, so the transmission needs as little adjustment as possible.

Click to expand...

And that's why your tunes rock. 👍 I think I even wrote about that very thing in one if my shootout reviews of your car.

OwensRacing

Real world. Gear ratios of higher value act like a lever. The higher the number the less power needed to move. So a 2.73 gear take more power to move then a 3.73.

Dom I know you know this. Just adding to your previous post.

Click to expand...

I mixed it up actually.
Yes, the 3.73 weighs less, but has to spin roughly 1.3 times for every time the 2.73 has to spin, or 373 times vs 273. How much that affects the overall outcome, I do not know.

The real world question is (I think) whether spinning the larger piece more, or the smaller piece more really makes a difference. As you know, simply changing a 2.73 for a 4.10 is clearly lighter, but it is not the same overall gear length. (Gears will all now be quicker)

To really compare, we'd need identical cars with identical gear lengths achieved by the different methods, and by gear length I mean how many RPM you'll need per MPH in each gear respectively.
What makes it impossible imo to judge viewing any real world examples I know of, is that all the cars with low final drives (below 3.0) are geared for space travel.

I'd certainly love to see it tried out though. I love my numbers.