Standard cars in GT6?

I myself would be more than happy to see a "starting field" of the 200 Premiums we already have, plus what ever amount they can convert in the lead up to the release. :)

Then....as they develop and finish their rendering (?) of newer models/older models, release these as DLC packs that might include, a Classic US Muscle car pack, a 90's JDM pack, a EURO pack, a "Tuner" pack.....???
That way, the guys who want only US cars can get their wish, same for the guys who feel they need 50 different GTR's or MX-5's. :)

Sure, cost will still be the bottom line, but maybe they could market the game a bit cheaper IF it only started with 200-250 cars?? :confused:
They will still profit from any added DLC that way.
 
My view on this is that PD should look at the standard car list and try to work out which cars are the most popular (looking at the trading and tuning forums on here would be a good start). Then as well as new cars, these cars should be given priority to be modelled into Premium.

I guarantee that PD can track mileage driven for every car by all users connected online. That should be the starting point for what standards to include and which to leave out. It would also be interesting to hear how they feel now about time invested making vehicles like the Kubelwagen and if it was worth it when looking at ownership rates and mileage driven.
 
Well, we did get 21 Premium Super GT cars to choose from. The 1960's Le Mans race cars were good. Like Kaz and many before have noted, not enough time to complete GT5. I'm thinking PD may be flushing out its old Kei cars and making room for more Vintage rides. GT4 had the old Benzes and GT5 even had the old VW war vehicles. The recent GT Awards cars may be hinting at a new palet of GT rides to come. A refresh, if anything.
 
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I guarantee that PD can track mileage driven for every car by all users connected online. That should be the starting point for what standards to include and which to leave out. It would also be interesting to hear how they feel now about time invested making vehicles like the Kubelwagen and if it was worth it when looking at ownership rates and mileage driven.

Good post. However I'm sure people try to pick high-PP cars for online races, whether organized or drop-in, so those Premium but low-PP cars might get the boot if PD uses online play to gauge whether to keep cars. My first car in GT5 was the Autozam, not because it was the fastest (I don't think the game used PP at the time), but because it looked the coolest of the cheap cars.
 
I hate everything about the standard cars. I especially hate how some of the best cars in the game are standards! The Bugatti Veyron and Spyker C8 have some of the nicest interiors in automotive creation and they were made standard. Instead of making 1000+ cars (200-300 of them were complete lemons) in the game it would have been better to have 500-600 as long as all of them are premiums.

Given that PD will likely only just have surpassed the 600 car mark by now, I'd say you haven't really thought that one through.

Remember, the Standards were already made, and much of the preparation for their inclusion will have been automated via conversion scripts.

Either you'd have had 200 Premiums and 800 Standards, or only 200 Premiums. I'm glad the Standards were included.
 
I don't want "high-quality" cars. I want normal production cars of varying quality.

Evidently you didn't read my post properly. By high quality, I meant the standard to which they are rendered in-game, not expensive cars and the like.
 
Evidently you didn't read my post properly. By high quality, I meant the standard to which they are rendered in-game, not expensive cars and the like.

Like I said, I'm not going solely by your post, but trying to figure out exactly what people "mean" by standard/premium.

The reality is that I'm seeing a LOT of what I would consider a childish desire to only have 'hot-rods'.

That's my point. I'm not into it.

It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.
 
Like I said, I'm not going solely by your post, but trying to figure out exactly what people "mean" by standard/premium.

The reality is that I'm seeing a LOT of what I would consider a childish desire to only have 'hot-rods'.

That's my point. I'm not into it.

It's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

Eh? Nobody is talking about anything like that. Have you not played GT5? It should be pretty obvious what people are talking about with standard and premium cars.
 
I wasn't aware GT5 did "get off the hook". I'm pretty sure one of the greatest criticisms was / is the way the car count was sold before the "revelation" (it really was too good to be true; I can't have been the only one actually expecting it to happen?!) that 80% were being carried over from GT4.

Fair point, though at least from my point of view, the people who find the inclusion of Standards unacceptable has gone up in the two years since release. It seems those of us who were disappointed by them when they were announced were in a minority, but going by posts these days, the percentage has roughly flipped. This is all rough guess-work based on my browsing the forums, though. And yeah, I didn't expect 1000+ cars all to the Premium level, but I expected at least something to be done to the GT3/4 models themselves.

All of this is moot, because at the rate PD should be churning cars out by now and the expected delivery for GT6 (now that it's almost certainly on PS4), we're likely to see just as many, if not possibly more cars, - all "Premiums" - when that arrives anyway.

True, and that is exciting 👍

What's sad about this is that the unnecessarily harsh response to the Standards might mean PD will be less inclined to go against the grain of "expected" mainstream standards (heh) in future, when that's exactly what the original game was in many ways.

I think the expected mainstream standard of having a more or less consistent level of detail across the entire car lineup isn't too much to ask. Even the Premiums lag behind other racing games' available modification options, the Standards obviously more so.

The strange thing about PD going against the grain is that their original game did that, and changed the course of console sim racers. Now much of what's expected in that sub-genre has grown out of GT's legacy. Multi-hundred car options? More in-depth tuning than some pre-fabbed "packages"? The quest for realism? What was then against the grain is now pretty much standard practice, and coupled with the advancement of technology over the past 15 years, I don't think it's unfair to say there's far less unexplored territory in the sim-ish genre than there was then. I'd also be inclined to say I'm more concerned with PD nailing the basics of the package before they start exploring yet more "unique" features to add to the game, that might end up only partially included.

By the way, the "warm butter" damage benefits from the much higher vertex density on the Premiums - it's the exact same model in either case. I expect it's so low in detail because of the ridiculously high density of the Premiums - if all cars were Standard quality, you can bet the damage model would actually look / perform better.

How would it look better with the much smaller amount of vertices to work with? Plus, at Standard quality, we'd still run into the major issue of single-piece modelling.

Not that I'm saying any other game has perfected damage, because I recognize the colossal amounts of computing power needed to do it on-the-fly and avoid the pre-made damage levels of other games. But the smeary/droopy look a lot of cars in GT5 end up with is pretty poor.
 
Fair point, though at least from my point of view, the people who find the inclusion of Standards unacceptable has gone up in the two years since release. It seems those of us who were disappointed by them when they were announced were in a minority, but going by posts these days, the percentage has roughly flipped. This is all rough guess-work based on my browsing the forums, though. And yeah, I didn't expect 1000+ cars all to the Premium level, but I expected at least something to be done to the GT3/4 models themselves.

I had hoped they did something, too, and I even went to great pains to invent things they could do based on half-baked notions of content creation pipelines for video games...
I don't have a wide view on posters' opinions (although these fora are still only a relatively minor and heavily skewed sub-set of players), but perhaps there's a link between that and member numbers? People newer to the series probably don't care about the "legacy" like some of us do. I don't even know if we should.
True, and that is exciting 👍

I think the expected mainstream standard of having a more or less consistent level of detail across the entire car lineup isn't too much to ask. Even the Premiums lag behind other racing games' available modification options, the Standards obviously more so.

The strange thing about PD going against the grain is that their original game did that, and changed the course of console sim racers. Now much of what's expected in that sub-genre has grown out of GT's legacy. Multi-hundred car options? More in-depth tuning than some pre-fabbed "packages"? The quest for realism? What was then against the grain is now pretty much standard practice, and coupled with the advancement of technology over the past 15 years, I don't think it's unfair to say there's far less unexplored territory in the sim-ish genre than there was then. I'd also be inclined to say I'm more concerned with PD nailing the basics of the package before they start exploring yet more "unique" features to add to the game, that might end up only partially included.

You have a point regarding consistency - but again, that's an issue of perspective and of how the Standards were "sold", for me. We were told that we needn't even look at one (well, use one, really) if we so chose - that clearly isn't true, and is disappointing because, having endured the "pain" of transitioning from GT2 to 3, I'd hoped that PD would get it right, and the Standards wouldn't be spat upon and vilified as much as they have been. I still think it'd be great to see them in the Museum.

The thing about the "genre" is that there are plenty of games that are taking those leads and polishing things up - I'd actually rather GT kept on trying (operative word) to do something new. Everyone else is taking what worked, distilling it into something "polished" and "mainstream acceptable", which is win-win - except for the "need" to buy more than one game. Of course, this process works both ways, I hope PD can take some of the others' innovations and do something interesting with them, too.
And actually, there is a lot left unexplored - slightly less than before, maybe, but still plenty.
How would it look better with the much smaller amount of vertices to work with? Plus, at Standard quality, we'd still run into the major issue of single-piece modelling.

Not that I'm saying any other game has perfected damage, because I recognize the colossal amounts of computing power needed to do it on-the-fly and avoid the pre-made damage levels of other games. But the smeary/droopy look a lot of cars in GT5 end up with is pretty poor.

That's where I imagined the adaptive tessellation would come in, it need only double / quadruple the vertex resolution where it's needed and you've got ample detail to play with and probably still 5 times the per-vertex power to actually perform the deformations than with the Premiums. The single-shell thing is unfortunate, but it's still workable - the droopiness to me still seems like a tuning / parameters issue, because I've seen "better" in the past with less detail (but that game also had a full multi-body Newtonian physics model, which GT still doesn't have...)

But you can't have everything - this comes under the whole "vanguard philosophy" (hilariously pretentious-sounding, I know) I mentioned above. Other developers will see that it's possible (or knew already and needed the nudge) and perhaps give it a proper go in future and do something good with it. We can reasonably expect improvements with a few more flops to throw at this sort of thing on PS4. Prove the concept (who knows how much of this is in PD's labs), make it "work" in practice, iterate to some satisfactory standard.
 
It pains me to suggest this, because mostly all my fav cars are standard, but PD must drop this inconsistency, save the time spent on "standardizing" GT4 assets, and put them into significantly less Premiums.

Keep the game consistent.

I find it worse to want a standard to be premium, than to want a car in the game, if a car isnt in the game, what can you do? But if a car is already in the game, you get a taste,a whiff of it, and you want more.

200 GT5 Premiums + another 300 or so, new cars and the top standards converted to Premium.

500 Premiums, seems fair no?

It does, I would at the very least want a 50/50 ratio of premium to standard cars, and then slowly convert the more popular standards as well as adding new Premiums
 
Well, I really hope they don't keep the standard cars, remove all the unnecessary cars, and remodel all the racing cars that are standards, like GT-One, R390, Minolta, GT-40, rally, DTM and JGTC cars, and all the classic cars.

And there is no need for so much "duplicates". The GT-Rs, there are so many of then, and only 2 or 3 of each generation would be more than enough. The same works for the Supras, S2000s, RX7s. This way, it would be something like that. A standard model, a limited edition (if it exists) and a improved version (like the twin turbo Supra) and that's all.
 
It would be cool to make the model and year available when buying, premium of course, but it would be like an online dealership website page, where instead of listing three GT-R skylines, allow us to choose the GT-R or GTST RWD model, and then the year and color or something of that nature
 
I would really like to see a lot less standard cars. There are too many cars that I think 'yes! I've finally got it!!' And then I can't even go in car in it. I love the in car view and in GT5, what they have done with the cars interior is awesome, but I want to experience more of that.
 
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I hope not only single 1 car on GT6 is standard that wouldn't be good, damn some cars that are already on the game should be premium and they just upscale them from GT4.... Example All Ruf models, Jaguar XJ220, Leman and group C cars, Merceces CLK GTR...., The Mclaren F1 GT1, the DTM cars how they left then standard... mmm and so many others I prefer more quality rather than quantity, for example what happen with GT3 it hasn't to many cars but the overall game is great.
 
I really dont think pd has an option with forza 4 700+ cars with cockpits it pretty much forces them to put all there cars to premium models cause by the time gt6 come out forza 5 will come out and forza 5 will probably have close to 1000 cars with cockpits and project cars is apperently close to 700 cars with cockpits already and it wont be coming out for close to another year.

that was longer than anticipated. :)
 
project cars is apperently close to 700 cars with cockpits already and it wont be coming out for close to another year.

I don't know where you read that but it's completely wrong, pCARS is aiming for 75-100 cars in the final game. It's quality, not quantity.
 
oh ok i dont remember where i seen it i just remeber that but still gt5 is pretty much forced to with forza

Except it isn't; FM4's all-in count with DLC is 660-ish, and to be completely honest, there's a number of them that should arguably be tossed out and done again from scratch. The 22B and first-gen NSX in that game look positively dated. We also don't know what sort of higher-quality models T10 and their modelling studios have on, if any, that they proceeded to optimize for the 360, but could potentially be used at their full brilliance on a more powerful system.

And on that note, same too with PD; for all we know, even these amazing "PS4-quality" cars we see in GT5 aren't the highest-quality versions PD has. Also, going off the oft-quoted time required for Premium construction, the car count should be well over 500 by now; especially when you factor in the option of working off an existing Premium to recreate a Standard. Those R8 race cars are based off the road models, after all, and we've got that in Premium already (as just one example).
 
If GT6 has standard cars, I think that alone will cause it to be the laughing stock of the racing genre. GT5 has a lot of stuff we put up with, but with all it's goofs, I would like to think it has put PD on edge a little.

If we accept standard model cars in our next game, what else will we let them get away with? We may not have as much control/say over content as we would like, and may be used to in other games, but if we all just act passive about it and look at it as if it's all good enough, then what we really want probably will not come.

GT5 was one of the most expensive games to develop ever. Yet we still were dealt cutrate models for the majority of cars. Yes, time constraints were the reason why. Sony always supersedes us when it comes to bossing around studios. But Sony can only think about what we want. We know what we want. It's definitely not easy as a community to agree on everything, but if we express something that we clearly want in the game, I bet Sony and PD will be forced to at least consider it.

It's not something they can't already do. It's just a matter of priorities. They absolutely can do it, but they need reasons why. If they know they can get away with standard cars once again, they probably will do it again.
 
Except it isn't; FM4's all-in count with DLC is 660-ish, and to be completely honest, there's a number of them that should arguably be tossed out and done again from scratch.

Let me tell you all a story.


I bought Forza 4, allured at the prospect of all of those cars with interiors. Glorious, glorious interiors. Believe it or not, the Forza games are the only the second racing series since the first Need for Speed game to have my beloved C4 Corvette rendered with an interior view. Words cannot describe how ecstatic I was at the chance to take my Corvette and tune it and drive it and paint it and have fun with it. It's not the ZR1, but the Grand Sport is all right. All would still be well.





Then I actually saw it, and hoo boy. You know, that one in GT5? The Standard one that dates to 2001 when they put it in GT3? Yeah. That one looks better than the one in FM4. And the interior... oh god, what did they do to it. Not a single detail about it was done properly, and it looks like they took a 16:9 picture of it and squished it to 4:3. And while there are certainly Premiums in GT5 that have a decided lack of detail to them (C5 Z06) and most of the cars have problems with gauges... let's just say that PD is a hell of a lot more consistent from what I've seen, and PD's interiors are more detail anyway.
 
Toronado
Let me tell you all a story.

I bought Forza 4, allured at the prospect of all of those cars with interiors. Glorious, glorious interiors. Believe it or not, the Forza games are the only the second racing series since the first Need for Speed game to have my beloved C4 Corvette rendered with an interior view. Words cannot describe how ecstatic I was at the chance to take my Corvette and tune it and drive it and paint it and have fun with it. It's not the ZR1, but the Grand Sport is all right. All would still be well.

Then I actually saw it, and hoo boy. You know, that one in GT5? The Standard one that dates to 2001 when they put it in GT3? Yeah. That one looks better than the one in FM4. And the interior... oh god, what did they do to it. Not a single detail about it was done properly, and it looks like they took a 16:9 picture of it and squished it to 4:3. And while there are certainly Premiums in GT5 that have a decided lack of detail to them (C5 Z06) and most of the cars have problems with gauges... let's just say that PD is a hell of a lot more consistent from what I've seen, and PD's interiors are more detail anyway.

Not that I don't believe you, but I'm going to have to see that with my own eyes. A car model in FM4 looking worse than a car model from a 10+ year old game is pretty baffling to me, to say the least.
 
Not that I don't believe you, but I'm going to have to see that with my own eyes. A car model in FM4 looking worse than a car model from a 10+ year old game is pretty baffling to me, to say the least.

Not my videos and the first car is not stock:



 
Ah, yes, the age old argument of graphics vs. aesthetics when it comes to "quality". That's one of the main reasons I don't mind the Standards as, aesthetically, they fit in rather well as long as you don't get too close to them. In many ways they look better than they did in GT4 or even GT3 (which had "better" lighting than GT4, aesthetically speaking), largely because of the aesthetic improvements GT5 brought, irrespective of the shapes and colours of objects being drawn in the engine.
 
Not that I don't believe you, but I'm going to have to see that with my own eyes. A car model in FM4 looking worse than a car model from a 10+ year old game is pretty baffling to me, to say the least.

There isn't a single thing about the Grand Sport model that is accurate when you look closely. The stripe along the middle doesn't get wider as you proceed to the back of the car like it should and isn't the proper width at the front or rear regardless. The mirrors aren't properly modeled, sitting near vertically on narrow stalks on top of the door rather than at a 45 degree angle on a wide base jutting from the corner of the door. The rear wheel arches are modeled after actual aftermarket items for base C4 Corvettes that stick out over an inch on both ends rather than the ones that came on the Grand Sport that ran flush with the body in the front. The hash marks on the front right fender aren't in the right place. The impact strip that runs around the exterior of the car is far too pronounced. The rear overhang is several inches too short. The fuel filler door isn't modeled. The rear window is way too short and as a result is doesn't sweep back at the same low angle.


The Grand Sport in GT5 may be one big block with a lot less polys and painted on body panels, but that big block is at least shaped properly and all of the painted on lines are present and in the right spot.
 
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Well toronado I must agree of what I've seen of Forza some cars really aren't even at the standard quality (no pun intended :lol:).Even if GT5 standards don't have interiors (I don't give a buck about it anyway) I can still admire how long these cars have existed and how close to real life they really are even if they're blocky and jaggy looking.Now I'm just waiting for that green '75 Maverick like my family used to have to appear in GT6 (we sold it last year :().
 
There isn't a single thing about the Grand Sport model that is accurate when you look closely. The stripe along the middle doesn't get wider as you proceed to the back of the car like it should and isn't the proper width at the front or rear regardless. The mirrors aren't properly modeled, sitting near vertically on narrow stalks on top of the door rather than at a 45 degree angle on a wide base jutting from the corner of the door. The rear wheel arches are modeled after actual aftermarket items for base C4 Corvettes that stick out over an inch on both ends rather than the ones that came on the Grand Sport that ran flush with the body in the front. The hash marks on the front right fender aren't in the right place. The impact strip that runs around the exterior of the car is far too pronounced. The rear overhang is several inches too short. The fuel filler door isn't modeled. The rear window is way too short and as a result is doesn't sweep back at the same low angle.


The Grand Sport in GT5 may be one big block with a lot less polys and painted on body panels, but that big block is at least shaped properly and all of the painted on lines are present and in the right spot.

So by better looking you mean more accurately modeled?


Well toronado I must agree of what I've seen of Forza some cars really aren't even at the standard quality (no pun intended :lol:).Even if GT5 standards don't have interiors (I don't give a buck about it anyway) I can still admire how long these cars have existed and how close to real life they really are even if they're blocky and jaggy looking.Now I'm just waiting for that green '75 Maverick like my family used to have to appear in GT6 (we sold it last year :().

And the quality of the standards in GT5 varies to a large degree as well; Forza's models however is more than a bit off topic for this thread (head over to the GT vs FM thread for that) so can we get this one back on track please.
 
The Grand Sport reminds me of Nissan R32 GTR model in FM4 .... not really accurate and looks weird, more like a model from previous Forza title, the standard R32 GTR model in GT5 is better when it comes to shape accuracy.
 
I thought this was a Gran Turismo 6 thread.

Standard cars in Gran Turismo 6 really shouldn't be allowed in this day and age. That being said, if PD was to release upcoming premium models as standards, or "teasers", then I wouldn't mind there being standards IF said standard cars eventually (as in a month or two from it being released as a standard) get the premium treatment.
 
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