I lost 32hp with Engine Balancing!!

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mafia_boy

mafia_boy

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I've searched for this throughout the GT4 forum to see if anyone else has discovered this and pretty shocked to see that it hasn't been noticed before, even in the GT4 glitch thread!! :dopey:

Now, EVERYONE (including myself) has been under the assumption for years and years that it doesn't matter what car you have, whatever you fit to your car is going to give you a decent power increase. I'm informing you guys that it's not true anymore. :nervous: Before you say I'm full of it, blah blah blah, I'll explain in more detail as it's only pertaining to this car so far.......

I was doing a bit of drag race building to increase the number of FF's I have running in the 11sec zone (last count, 27 cars) and realised I didn't have enough Toyota's in the 11's, so I purchased the Toyota Corolla RUNX from the new car lot, did an oil change and then started to work on it.

Following a normal routine of mine by checking out the power boosters before any mods are fitted, it occured that supercharging would be the best path with 284hp from only that with no other mods, so I assumed that 330hp would've been safe to attain from it. I fitted all other parts (exhaust, chip, P&P, Balancing) and then checked out the power boosters again. But now, the turbo was the top choice with 309hp, followed by supercharging at only 287hp!! :odd:

How could this be!?!?! I would only gain 3hp overall compared to the supercharger only setup, yet I increased it's stock horsepower atleast 40hp on it's own before the supercharger was fitted. I decided to check each part individually. Each part was giving between a 8-11hp increase. So I reset the PS2 and restarted from point of oil change.

This time I fitted the supercharger first. Up to 284hp. Then the racing exhaust. Nearly 300hp. Fitted the chip. Just off 310hp. Fitted the Port & Polish. Up to 319hp. This was getting more along the lines of what I had first pictured for the car heading towards the 330hp target I initially aimed for. Only the engine balancing was left, so I clicked on it ready to buy.

It then says:Before - 319hp, After - 287hp.....cost = 11,000cr.

WHAT THE 🤬?!?!?! I was dumbfounded at that. I haven't found anything else, but I haven't had time to really look for another car that does that. This is with a PAL Greatest Hits/Platinum disc to let you guys know aswell.

Has anyone else encountered what I discovered with any car?? Let us know if you have and what car it was. Also, try what I've done with the Corolla RUNX and see the results for yourself and be as surprised as I was. Just remember, you MUST FIT ENGINE BALANCING LAST!!

P.S. Just for the record, I did get an 11.954 with the 319hp. ;)
 
For other cars, it's a known thing that the Caterham gives a lot more power with a semi-racing exhaust than the full racing one. Weird but probably explainable by the small high revving engine needing some pressure in the pipes.
 
About the Corolla, I haven't got one myself so I might just go check when I get home, see if its the same story on an original UK release disk. ;)

The Caterham gets more power with a semi-racing exhaust? Bugger, that was a waste of credits. :ouch:
 
It only seems to happen when supercharging though...

'cos only the scharged Caterham loses power with racing exhaust...
 
Home now, commencing test on the Corolla. :)

Edit: Test 1: Trying Engine Balancing on a showroom stock Corolla. 190bhp -> 196bhp. Nothing weird there.
Edit2: Test 2: Equipping Supercharger, then R exhaust, then chip, P&P will add up to 304bhp. Remember I have no oil change. Add on Engine Balancing... 273bhp!

Mafs tells the truth folks. ;)
 
Except some cars that suffer from the glitches the supercharger bring out have a ruined power curve when you add the offending part.

Greycap
Weird but probably explainable by the small high revving engine needing some pressure in the pipes.
Click to expand...
I doubt it was a feature put in for realism purposes. Especially when some of the cars it happens to are rather large engine monsters.
 
Oh, yes, the talk of glitches reminds me...

You can put an intercooler on the B6 S4 (the one that's got the 4.2 V8, NA). With it still NA.
 
Currently trying to do this with the NTSC Greatest Hits version to see if it's a PAL-only incident.

Edit: Supercharger, then Racing Exhaust, then Chip, then Port And Polish=304 hp. Add Engine Balancing, and you get 273 hp.:banghead:
Edit Pt. 2: Going to try Balancing first, then go in the same order as before. Results: I still get 273 hp. Maybe it's a Supercharger thing?
Edit Pt. 3: Went to fit Stage 2 Turbo instead of Supercharger. Result: 304 hp.

OK, this completely boggles my mind.
 
that reminds me, i had the same problem, not with engine balancing, but with tbe computer chip. as far as i can remember, i was tuning an AE86 Corolla, i was trying to see the difference between the supercharger and the turbo.., when the supercharger was equipped, i fitted in the chip, my hp decreased?? :confused: WTH?? :odd: just thought i shared this.., :dopey:
 
a Trico Pro
its just a couple of horses, how bad can that really be?
Click to expand...

VTiRoj
Its not a couple, its 32bhp. Which is around 10% of the cars power.
Click to expand...

Actually, it's JUST over the 10% mark. And your power figures are without oil changes it seems either, as I've got 14hp on your supercharged figures guys.

Drifting24/7, is that glitch with the normal Levin or the Shigeno version??
 
LOL, I thought you guys knew your stuff!

To understand the basics of engine tuning, you must first understand two principles - induction and extraction. One is how fast you can push air into the engine, the second is how quickly you can extract waste gasses. In the case of the Corolla, the fitment of a ridiculously large racing exhaust drops back pressure to virtually nothing, which in terms of naturally aspirated engines, is not something that's recommended. Oversizing of exhausts causes a loss of torque at low engine speeds and a loss of torque results in an engine struggling to rev properly. Great on engines that rev to 10000rpm, even better on engines that are turbocharged, but...

A supercharger generally works off the crank of the engine to deliver power and as such, saps power directly from the crank. The power it saps vastly outweighs the benefits of forced induction, but when you have a car that isn't turbocharged and struggles with backpressure due to an oversized exhaust, torque drops and a drop in torque generally results in a loss of RPM. No RPM, no crank revolutions, no power.

The Corolla needs exhaust back pressure to operate in a proper 'tuned' state and hence the fitment of a racing exhaust has negative applications for overall horsepower and torque useability. Fit a semi-racing exhaust to maintain low down torque and you'll find that a supercharger will work much better.

I managed to get 322bhp out of the Corolla and it was easy.

Does anyone understand the basic principles of turbocharging versus supercharging?

;)
 
As to the blower side of things... Superchargers don't really cost much power until they're spinning up boost. That giant exhaust will stop costing power by around 2500 rpm, and by the time peak power rolls around... Well, by then, we NEED the extra flow from the racing exhaust, because we've got half an extra atmosphere (around 7.5 PSI boost) getting blown into the cylinder, compressed, and expanded.

Nothing ever NEEDS backpressure, wants backpressure, or likes backpressure. That's just what the idiot up at the muffler shop wants you to think.

The only reason a more restrictive exhaust feels better on the street is because on the street you're generally at lower RPM. Lower RPM means less exhaust gas wanting a way out. Big pipes/no restriction mean the exhaust gases can just sit around idly almost... And that means no scavenging. Smaller pipes will bring the exhaust velocity up, and with it, scavenging. Then we go up in RPM and we get backpressure. Yay, power loss. A bigger pipe won't scavenge down low (lost low-end), but will up high, and won't have the backpressure. So we gain power.

;)
 
Rotary Junkie
Nothing ever NEEDS backpressure, wants backpressure, or likes backpressure. That's just what the idiot up at the muffler shop wants you to think.
Click to expand...
All the guys racing in the 85cc class karting races must be idiots then.

Sure, this goes right to the nitpicking department but a high revving two stroke engine is very sensitive to the pressure cycles in the exhaust. If the exhaust is half an inch too long you're not getting full power, if it's half an inch too short the situation is the same. That's why there are pieces in the exhaust to adjust its length - I should know, I've driven those things for a couple of years on a hobby basis. The exhaust is a very valuable tool in tuning the behaviour of those engines.
 
Well spoken indeed.

I own three cars, all have Nissan engines, one is turbocharged, the other two are naturally aspirated. All have differing exhausts and all give differing performance in regards to torque. The Commodore I've got with a large 3" mandrel straight through with glasspaks and an off-the-shelf manifold is hopeless under 3500rpm, due to lack of torque. the other Commodore with a 2.25" exhaust and a single baffle with factory manifolds is infinitely more driveable and much quicker. Go figure.

You're right when you say back pressure doesn't affect top end horsepower on forced-induction cars and less back pressure is better. But horsepower is just a mere by-product of revs and torque and anything that negatively affects your torque band affects your peak horsepower.

I'm not saying that that was the intention with the Corolla in GT4, but I have found from personal experience that 'too much' of a good thing can sometimes be negative.
 
Greycap
All the guys racing in the 85cc class karting races must be idiots then.

Sure, this goes right to the nitpicking department but a high revving two stroke engine is very sensitive to the pressure cycles in the exhaust. If the exhaust is half an inch too long you're not getting full power, if it's half an inch too short the situation is the same. That's why there are pieces in the exhaust to adjust its length - I should know, I've driven those things for a couple of years on a hobby basis. The exhaust is a very valuable tool in tuning the behaviour of those engines.
Click to expand...
They aren't idiots, but everyone confuses backpressure with velocity.

Rotary Junkie is right, when building an engine for performance, you don't want backpressure, I don't know how this misconception became such a widely believed bunch of crap.

The ideal exhaust for a N/A car is the highest velocity with the least resistance (backpressure)

People put a big exhaust on an N/A car, (oh look, no backpressure!) and lose power, and then think that they lost power because they lost backpressure, when in reality what caused it was the fact that the exhaust flow had little velocity ---> no scavenging effect.

Backpressure is resistance, resistance is bad. End of story.

EDIT: Actually I'd say they are idiots. They believe what someone told them instead of actually doing the research themselves.
 
Backpressure is a rather commonly used term around performance and exhaust shops.

I suppose it helps guys like me understand the basics of exhaust tuning. LOL I'm no wizard, so I equate backpressure with flow. Backpressure and flow are generally used in term with the path of least resistance and that's what I meant.

All I was saying was that if an exhaust is too large, it can rob an engine of torque and any loss of torque is bad for tuning.

;)
 
Does the part description for the racing exhaust mention it being the largest of the three upgrades? I believe each part is separated only by performance, not "size A, size B, size C."

Exhaust-related fluid dynamics aside, the racing-spec exhaust should be the one best-suited to the engine, no matter what other parts are equipped. Such a simplicity is the nature of videogames.
 
mafia_boy
Drifting24/7, is that glitch with the normal Levin or the Shigeno version??
Click to expand...

it's the normal Levin.., and the Shigeno is a Trueno, not a Levin.., plus, you can't put a supercharger on the SS Trueno, only on the normal AE-Hachi Roku's.., :)
 
Ahhhh. I don't own a Shigeno version so I wouldn't know. ;)

10.0km Levin on the other hand. 👍

Aero_Hdt, in general, any forced induction (be it turbo or supercharging) needs as free a flowing exhaust as possible. NA has better results with thinner exhausts due to building the backpressure that's sometimes needed to enhance atmo pressures. And lot's of supercharged motors can hit 9-10k after being fully worked. ;)
 
Yeah, a decent fully worked supercharged LS engine can hit 50K. Thats the sort of money you'd spend on a 1000hp motor.

I can't remember off the top of my head, but was the Corolla RUNX an atmo engine or turbocharged from the factory? Atmo wasn't it?

;)
 
The RUNX is our last generation (2002-2005) Aussie Corolla Sportivo HDT_AERO. 2ZZ-GE motor with VVTL-i, NA powered. :)

50K with a supercharged LS motor?? :lol: I like that. 👍 You being a Commodore lover (so it seems with your username) should know a stock LS will hit near 7k, and a decently tuned one rivals S2K's for RPM limits. :mischievous:
 

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