The power loss with altitude thread.

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Stevisiov

Stevisiov

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*Warning thread may contain some physics*

Okay so this is thread about physics accuracy, now altitude affects a car in numerous way one of the most noticeable effects is the power output of your engine.

Perhaps you may wonder why does it matter?

Well while many tracks are barely higher than sea level, there are some in-game tracks which are sufficiently high enough to have a noticeable effect. At around 2000 metre's (6500feet) a naturally aspirated engine should experience a powerloss of close to 20%. So your 300bhp car should find itself with around 240bhp.

Clearly Gran Turismo would be more realistic if it took this into account, sadly GT5P doesn't appear to do this currently going by the quick-tune menu at Eiger and then Daytona in which the power remains the same.

If GT where to re-introduce the pike's peak hill climb the effect would be even more noticeable as the rally ranges from 9000-15000feet which would result in a 25-45% powerloss depending on the on what height you are at. It seems too much of an important detail to miss.

Anther reason why I think it is very important aside from accuracy of simulation, is it adds another factor to tuning, a forced induction engine will experience less of a powerloss than a naturally aspirated enigne, this could affect what car you choose for a certain race, how you tune and setup the car. For example you may choose to buy a turbo for your car instead of going down the naturally aspirated root if you planning on racing at a track like eiger.

Now for the physics, you've been warned.

A naturally aspirated looses approximately 3% power for every 1000feet, this is due to a decrease in air density at altitude and thus less oxygen available for combustion. For a forced induction engine its not so simple.

example

Let's say you have a 300bhp turbo charged engine at sea level. The turbo charger supplies 10psi of boost.

Using eiger as an example again, the powerless can be calculated. assuming sea level air pressure to be 14.7psi.

When car produces its peak power of 300bhp at sea level, the intake pressure is 14.7(air pressure) + 10psi provided by turbo charger = 24.7psi to get 300bhp.

at 6500 feet air pressure has decreased by 20% so air pressure is 11.8psi.

11.8psi (air pressure) + 10psi (assuming turbo can spin fast enough to maintain efficiency) = 21.8psi intake pressure.

21.8/24.7 = 89% power

=267bhp

this is an extra 27bhp advantage over a naturally aspirated engine. While this may not seem that huge, the higher the altitude the more power is saved by the turbo, this saving can be increased further by increasing the boost pressure of the turbo.

I think its an interesting factor which to consider when tuning a car, and of course it will add to the accuracy of the simulation so I am certainly hoping we will see the effects of altitude in GT5. :)
 
I know it's realistic, but I honestly don't think anyone would mind that GT doesn't take this into account. I mean, this is pushing it a little more than is needed at the moment.


That, and a lot of average players would probably think their 1500HP Veyron is glitched because it's losing HP.
 
Its an interesting thought Steven but i think your asking for to much and GT5!! has been delayed enough :(. There is many more things they could add to the game like the tempature, weather, dust or oil spills.
 
Interesting concept. Sad to see it get shot down within the first three replies. I like your idea Steve. Considering the fact that there are quite a bit of tracks that are possibly going to be in the game that are high altitude. Seeing a powerloss in your car at higher altitudes would make it an interesting experience. I don't think it would be too hard to implement into the game either.
 
I like your idea too because your argument is well...pretty valid. Didn't even know this effect is that "heavy" and that is why I too think it should be implemented, at least in a GT on the ps4.
 
Watevaman
I know it's realistic, but I honestly don't think anyone would mind that GT doesn't take this into account. I mean, this is pushing it a little more than is needed at the moment.


That, and a lot of average players would probably think their 1500HP Veyron is glitched because it's losing HP.
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The power seems to jump around all the time in GT4, I don't think its much different here. Oh and I think the Veyron should be okay, I mean four turbo's probably goes quite a long way in reducing powerloss. :sly:

dancardesigner
Not going to happen, close thread
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Yes sir, I should lock my thread at once, wouldn't want to bring idea's to the table now would I. :rolleyes:

Of course if your a moderator, by all means go ahead and lock it, until then perhaps leave the moderating to the moderators. 👍

Ren-Tec
Its an interesting thought Steven but i think your asking for to much and GT5!! has been delayed enough :(. There is many more things they could add to the game like the tempature, weather, dust or oil spills.
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It's really not that complicated Mike, and PD will almost certainly have all the relevant info to implement such changes.

For example, PD have all the information on the altitude of all their tracks (fictional ones are made up). They already have the data on the turbo boost pressures from the manufactures, the game already calculates that for all the cars when you drive them and the aftermarket Turbo's. The information is already there, its hardly anything compared to implementing weather.

Of course altitude affects more than just the engine, but again, its adding bits to the existing code rather than requiring a redesign.
 
Well since you basically just explained all the math in a 1/10th page post, I do not think it would be all that hard to implement. PD would just have to add it to the list, which unfortunately is quite long.
 
bergauk
Interesting concept. Sad to see it get shot down within the first three replies. I like your idea Steve. Considering the fact that there are quite a bit of tracks that are possibly going to be in the game that are high altitude. Seeing a powerloss in your car at higher altitudes would make it an interesting experience. I don't think it would be too hard to implement into the game either.
Click to expand...

He has a good point, it's just that what he is mentioning will almost definatley not appear in GT5, it would complicate things too much, especially if they keep the performance points system. Also it could have been asked in a different thread.

I mean should i make a thread about every possible feature that could be implemented in game, the list could be almost endless, literally.

I mean how about a thread each for the following

-Oil spills in gt5?
-Real working seatbelts in GT5?
-Pump up your own tires in GT5 by shaking the sixaxis like a pump?
-Defrost your windscreen in GT5?
-Will we be able to clean our upholstery in GT5?
-8 Ball dustcaps in GT5?

You get my point?, im not having a dig, it's just this could have been asked here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60043
 
dancardesigner
Not going to happen, close thread
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That was a stupid post :P

I doubt pd will include this in the game but it's an interesting point for sure. They did make cars go faster as the gas tank emptied in gt4 yeah? I happen to live at excactly one mile high and at our local drag strip we have a chart that calcutates what you're 1/4 mile time would be at sea level, so yeah, it's a big deal and part of the nature of gas engines and racing in general. You could delve deeper into it and have tuning options to lean or rich an engine but they won't do that either as there is no engine damage or failure. Just change the oil and magically deliciously the hp is like new.
 
JDigital
someone email it to PD, this is the kind of "polishing" they can pull off in a few days...
Click to expand...

If someone on this site knew pd email im pretty sure they would have emailed them with loads of the questions to the point where they wouldn't bother reading them no more.



i think this idea will definitely incorporate it's way in to a racing game in the coming years.
 
dancardesigner
He has a good point, it's just that what he is mentioning will almost definatley not appear in GT5, it would complicate things too much, especially if they keep the performance points system. Also it could have been asked in a different thread.

I mean should i make a thread about every possible feature that could be implemented in game, the list could be almost endless, literally.
Click to expand...

I don't understand why that is such a bad thing, as far as I can tell this hasn't come up before but seems like a simple way to improve the realism of the simulation, which it needs to go into another thread (of which it bears little relevance too) is beyond me.

I mean how about a thread each for the following

-Oil spills in gt5?
-Real working seatbelts in GT5?
-Pump up your own tires in GT5 by shaking the sixaxis like a pump?
-Defrost your windscreen in GT5?
-Will we be able to clean our upholstery in GT5?
-8 Ball dustcaps in GT5?
Click to expand...

Oh come on use your head, the majority of those are cosmetic idea's, nice little touches. I am talking about something that happens in real life, something which has a significant effect on a cars behaviour that PD haven't programmed, something which they could easily do to improve the realism of the game.

I mean, do you honestly think a thread for 8-ball dust caps, is equally worthy of a thread as this, what can you possibly discuss? :dunce:

I don't think you understand how pronounced the effects of altitude are, have you ever driven on a very high mountain road, there is a very noticeable difference, I am sure the Pike's Peak rally drivers could testify to that. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you should write it off.

You get my point?, im not having a dig, it's just this could have been asked here https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=60043
Click to expand...

No it's not going to go in there, just look at how long and incoherent that thread is, its to vague to be able to find anything useful. Ordered threads with suitable topics should have there own thread, they are much easier to search for than trawling through a 200 page thread.
 
Stevisiov
I don't understand why that is such a bad thing, as far as I can tell this hasn't come up before but seems like a simple way to improve the realism of the simulation, which it needs to go into another thread (of which it bears little relevance too) is beyond me.



Oh come on use your head, the majority of those are cosmetic idea's, nice little touches. I am talking about something that happens in real life, something which has a significant effect on a cars behaviour that PD haven't programmed, something which they could easily do to improve the realism of the game.

I mean, do you honestly think a thread for 8-ball dust caps, is equally worthy of a thread as this, what can you possibly discuss? :dunce:

I don't think you understand how pronounced the effects of altitude are, have you ever driven on a very high mountain road, there is a very noticeable difference, I am sure the Pike's Peak rally drivers could testify to that. Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean you should write it off.



No it's not going to go in there, just look at how long and incoherent that thread is, its to vague to be able to find anything useful. Ordered threads with suitable topics should have there own thread, they are much easier to search for than trawling through a 200 page thread.
Click to expand...


Lol, them thread titles were just for a laugh, im just trying to say there are many areas that can be improved and features added to GT5, but most of the time unless it's a thread covering a broad topic or range of possibilities it's normally closed by the mods.

In the case of your topic, i really do believe what you have described will almost certainly not be in GT5. It may sound like a simple percentage alteration to the power output or whatever, but i think actual implemntation would be very difficult, especially if the PP system is still in place. Things like whether a car was supercharged, turbo charged, naturally aspirated, Induction kits, and having electric cars or even hybrids which will probably have a constant power output and constant number of performance points running in a field of petrols with variable power output according to altitude and many other factors would all complicate the implementation of such an idea.

My first post was a bit short, sorry if i've offended you, it's just that most other threads like these have been locked in the past.
 
dancardesigner
Lol, them thread titles were just for a laugh, im just trying to say there are many areas that can be improved and features added to GT5, but most of the time unless it's a thread covering a broad topic or range of possibilities it's normally closed by the mods.

In the case of your topic, i really do believe what you have described will almost certainly not be in GT5. It may sound like a simple percentage alteration to the power output or whatever, but i think actual implemntation would be very difficult, especially if the PP system is still in place. Things like whether a car was supercharged, turbo charged, naturally aspirated, Induction kits, and having electric cars or even hybrids which will probably have a constant power output and constant number of performance points running in a field of petrols with variable power output according to altitude and many other factors would all complicate the implementation of such an idea.

My first post was a bit short, sorry if i've offended you, it's just that most other threads like these have been locked in the past.
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You don't really sound like you know anything of what you speak. I'll explain:


You say that normally a "broad" thread is closed by the mod. Well, this thread is pretty specific so I don't see what that has to do with anything. Also you could always let the mods do the moderating.

You continue with how you are certain something will not be in GT5. Last I checked there are very few details that people are sure of, so your speculation is pointless.

Then you say it may sound like a simple percentage but try to lead people to believe it isn't. Actually, it is. See, there is a certain amount of oxygen in the air at certain levels. Certain amounts of oxygen mixed with certain amounts of fuel, when ignited, create energy. It really is absolutely simple math and nowhere beyond the capabilities of PD to program, nor the PS3 to process.

Then you give some (incorrect) examples of why it would be hard to implement... and you say (LOL):

"whether a car was supercharged, turbo charged, naturally aspirated, Induction kits"

Well, news flash... superchargers and turbochargers are "induction kits" and do exactly the same thing, force air into the intake. Why you are bringing up an electric car which has NO intake and does not use oxygen to produce its power is beyond me. But all of this is irrelevant really...

All you need is intake PSI and altitude to effectively create a formula that will pretty much nail the power loss. You could even go a few steps further with small details like intake runner diameters and whatnot, but it really wouldn't be needed to get close enough to be effective.


Sorry if I offended you in any way but it bothers me when people act like know-it-alls and shoot down great ideas.
 
As much as I'd love the idea, I do think that this may be taken the wrong way. BUT! I could see it being incorporated into the 'Professinal' physics. The game could give a disclaimer saying in Professional physics there may be a loss of performance at higher altitude tracks.
 
I'm all for it 👍

Though I doubt PD would include it considering how confused most GT users would get.
 
JDigital
You don't really sound like you know anything of what you speak. I'll explain:


You say that normally a "broad" thread is closed by the mod. Well, this thread is pretty specific so I don't see what that has to do with anything. Also you could always let the mods do the moderating.

You continue with how you are certain something will not be in GT5. Last I checked there are very few details that people are sure of, so your speculation is pointless.

Then you say it may sound like a simple percentage but try to lead people to believe it isn't. Actually, it is. See, there is a certain amount of oxygen in the air at certain levels. Certain amounts of oxygen mixed with certain amounts of fuel, when ignited, create energy. It really is absolutely simple math and nowhere beyond the capabilities of PD to program, nor the PS3 to process.

Then you give some (incorrect) examples of why it would be hard to implement... and you say (LOL):

"whether a car was supercharged, turbo charged, naturally aspirated, Induction kits"

Well, news flash... superchargers and turbochargers are "induction kits" and do exactly the same thing, force air into the intake. Why you are bringing up an electric car which has NO intake and does not use oxygen to produce its power is beyond me. But all of this is irrelevant really...

All you need is intake PSI and altitude to effectively create a formula that will pretty much nail the power loss. You could even go a few steps further with small details like intake runner diameters and whatnot, but it really wouldn't be needed to get close enough to be effective.


Sorry if I offended you in any way but it bothers me when people act like know-it-alls and shoot down great ideas.
Click to expand...

Amazing, i appologize and you turn all personal.

Firstly i did not say a ''Broad'' thread is closed by the mods, i said the opposite, read again:sly:, i was implying your thread is too specific but not large enough a topic to deserve its own thread.

Secondly you say my speculation is pointless, well i think this topic is pointless as the chances of it being in as others have agreed is little.

Thirdly, im not saying the physical principal is not a simple percentage, it is , but rather the implementation of such a parameter would be much more than a simple percentage due to other complicating factors like those i mentioned and many more.

Fourthly you believe them to be incorrect examples, because you clearly do not understand where i was coming from, i did not feel i had to go into in depth physical details as i thought you would understand.

And finally in regards to the electric car, if you read and understood what i said properly you would not be asking why i brought it up. My point was that having a petrol car that is vulnerable to alttitude changes would affect it's PP system, something an electric is not susceptable too, therefore it would complicate things having them in the same race and using the same physics engine, especially if your idea is for power loss to be dynamic for tracks with big elevation changes.
 
Jay
I'm all for it 👍

Though I doubt PD would include it considering how confused most GT users would get.
Click to expand...

Little note at the track screen saying "you will experience a temporary horsepower loss due to the altitude of this track" would be simple enough for me. Besides, no ones going to really notice a difference when racing other cars if all the other cars on the field are just as slow.
 
dancardesigner
Amazing, i appologize and you turn all personal.

Firstly i did not say a ''Broad'' thread is closed by the mods, i said the opposite, read again:sly:, i was implying your thread is too specific but not large enough a topic to deserve its own thread.

Secondly you say my speculation is pointless, well i think this topic is pointless as the chances of it being in as others have agreed is little.

Thirdly, im not saying the physical principal is not a simple percentage, it is , but rather the implementation of such a parameter would be much more than a simple percentage due to other complicating factors like those i mentioned and many more.

Fourthly you believe them to be incorrect examples, because you clearly do not understand where i was coming from, i did not feel i had to go into in depth physical details as i thought you would understand.

And finally in regards to the electric car, if you read and understood what i said properly you would not be asking why i brought it up. My point was that having a petrol car that is vulnerable to alttitude changes would affect it's PP system, something an electric is not susceptable too, therefore it would complicate things having them in the same race and using the same physics engine, especially if your idea is for power loss to be dynamic for tracks with big elevation changes.
Click to expand...

Like I said, didn't mean for it to be too personal or offending.

But, an open discussion about a unique topic will never be pointless. Pessimism, however, will always be pointless.

I understood everything you wrote except for the broad thread part, perhaps you should read what I wrote again keeping in mind the context of this thread.

Racing multiple cars with different characteristics in the same race doesn't create an issue... if you chose to go with a lesser choice for the particular race under the particular circumstances and restrictions, that's your problem.
 
bergauk
Little note at the track screen saying "you will experience a temporary horsepower loss due to the altitude of this track" would be simple enough for me. Besides, no ones going to really notice a difference when racing other cars if all the other cars on the field are just as slow.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking more about when you start a race and it tells you your engine power (like in GT4).

As noted NA cars will get effected more, for example the Z06 pulls away from the GTR on the straights (sea level or close) but at higher altitude that is likely to be the other way around. I just cant imagine PD putting disclaimers around the place, it doesn't look so classy. Though I imagine it could be mentioned in one of the rolling messages on the bottom of the screen when you tune.
 
Duphman
I wonder who else is brilliant enough to respond to the blatant troll, whose whole point is to crap in a fine thread.
Click to expand...

Clearly your only point is to flame. My points were valid and like i said this topic could have been asked in another thread.
 
Adding it can make the game more accurate but since it affects every car on the track it becomes pointless.

The only use may be to feel the different HP in the same car but that can be done already adding turbos and stuff like that.
 
Torero82
Adding it can make the game more accurate but since it affects every car on the track it becomes pointless.

The only use may be to feel the different HP in the same car but that can be done already adding turbos and stuff like that.
Click to expand...

It doesn't affect every car on the track the same way... adding a little more strategy to the race overall.
 
dancardesigner
Clearly your only point is to flame. My points were valid and like i said this topic could have been asked in another thread.
Click to expand...

It couldn't have been asked in another thread. Thats what you don't seem to get. You're acting as if this was a random thread with no meaning. When clearly it got me to click on it. I don't even click GT5 threads because they're all so inane and pointless. Seeing a new thread with 4 posts about something such as altitude and powerloss WITH scientific facts and not just speculation. I think it deserves its own thread. I do agree that inane threads with random titles and no real goal should be eliminated, I don't think this should be that kind of thread. Seeing your post made it seem like you didn't even read the first post and quickly dismissed it.
 
JDigital
It doesn't affect every car on the track the same way... adding a little more strategy to the race overall.
Click to expand...

You hit the nail on the head with that statement, which backs up what i was trying to get across before, the fact all cars arn't affected equally will play havok with the performance points system and mean that cars that might be able to race against each other on a low elevation track may not neccessarily be able to race against each other on a high elevation track. This is also why i brought the electric car up as it is not affected at all. This is why it is more complicated to implemnt than just a simple percentage alteration to power output.

@Bergauk- Your entitled to your oppinion, i happen to feel this additional feature is not neccessary or important enough to require its own thread. What makes it different to the things posted in the ''Things you want in GT5 other than cars thread''?
 
Performance points will just change depending on the track, go high alt and it will go down (at different rate depending on car, excluding electric which will be the same), add a tuning parts/setting section before race to make adjustments.

I hate the Performance points system anyway, I hope it's not used in the GT career mode.
 

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