Wheels for Forza...?
- Thread starter LANDO
- 65 comments
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- 86,814
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
The reason:
PS3 and PCs use HID force feedback mechanisms. The machine calculates the strength and direction of force feedback based on the actions in the game.
360/older PCs use XID force feedback mechanisms. The machine only calculates what force feedback profile to use based on actions in the game ("Profile 82!"), the wheel then determines the strength and direction based on that profile ("Profile 82? That's 42.6% left and 21.1% right, 0.04s apart!").
Since the machine only does some of the calculation and the wheel does some, it's more machine-efficient - more system resources are available to do other things - but it's also a technology tightly controlled by Microsoft and they will not licence it to Logitech. It also means all wheels - XID or HID - will work on HID devices (PS3/modern PCs), but you're limited to XID only on XID devices, and that means the official MS wheel (which is crap) or the Fanatec Turbo S (which is expensive).
PS3 and PCs use HID force feedback mechanisms. The machine calculates the strength and direction of force feedback based on the actions in the game.
360/older PCs use XID force feedback mechanisms. The machine only calculates what force feedback profile to use based on actions in the game ("Profile 82!"), the wheel then determines the strength and direction based on that profile ("Profile 82? That's 42.6% left and 21.1% right, 0.04s apart!").
Since the machine only does some of the calculation and the wheel does some, it's more machine-efficient - more system resources are available to do other things - but it's also a technology tightly controlled by Microsoft and they will not licence it to Logitech. It also means all wheels - XID or HID - will work on HID devices (PS3/modern PCs), but you're limited to XID only on XID devices, and that means the official MS wheel (which is crap) or the Fanatec Turbo S (which is expensive).
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
For reasons Famine explained (better than I would have) you will not find a adapater or any 'cracked drivers' or anything that will actually work to make logitech FFB wheels work with the Xbox 360 (there is a non FFB logitech wheel available).
- 86,814
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
- 790
- Germany
Good explanation. I might want to add that this XID protocoll is only better in theory. In practice most games use only force commands (left and right) because they are used to program FF effects that way from PS3 or PC games. Therefore the technology is not fully exploited yet. But the protocol is already better because of the additional support for vibration motors.
The reason why our wheels are a bit more expensive is that we made two independent sets of electronics into the wheel to get support for two consoles. This technology is pretty tricky and certainly the most advanced on the market today. Beside that you even have the option between wireless and wired on PS3/PC.
The reason why our wheels are a bit more expensive is that we made two independent sets of electronics into the wheel to get support for two consoles. This technology is pretty tricky and certainly the most advanced on the market today. Beside that you even have the option between wireless and wired on PS3/PC.
- 86,814
- Rule 12
- GTP_Famine
Very much agreed.
Indeed - though I'd quibble on "a bit"
That said, I don't think the RRPs are too different between the G27 and Turbo S - I've just never seen a G27 anywhere near RRP except Logitech's website.
- 790
- Germany
well beside the extra compatibility you get a lot of additional features on our wheel so i am sure that the price performance is reasonable.
-Additional vibration motors
- Wireless connection to PS3
- Illuminated buttons
- ABS vibration
- Possibility to change the steering sensitivity in GT5
- Drift mode
- Smooth belt drive system
- Additional sequential shifter
- bigger wheel rim with automotive grade leather
- more buttons on wheel rim
etc. etc.
-Additional vibration motors
- Wireless connection to PS3
- Illuminated buttons
- ABS vibration
- Possibility to change the steering sensitivity in GT5
- Drift mode
- Smooth belt drive system
- Additional sequential shifter
- bigger wheel rim with automotive grade leather
- more buttons on wheel rim
etc. etc.
- 1,055
@Famine
I don't know if we mean the same things.
HID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device I don't know how much standardization exists regarding force feedback.
XID: the way Xbox360 controllers talk and related to XInput
HID is probably as old as USB. Update: HID 1.0 was released 1/30/1996
If XID was backwards compatible, shouldn't the devices work with HID drivers? They don't (e.g. wired Xbox360 controller on Win2K or older XP).
Why should Microsoft deny a license to Logitech?
At least now when their own wheel wasn't a big success.
This way they locked out the whole community of enthusiasts - until Fanatec came, of course.
I don't know if we mean the same things.
HID: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_interface_device I don't know how much standardization exists regarding force feedback.
XID: the way Xbox360 controllers talk and related to XInput
HID is probably as old as USB. Update: HID 1.0 was released 1/30/1996
If XID was backwards compatible, shouldn't the devices work with HID drivers? They don't (e.g. wired Xbox360 controller on Win2K or older XP).
Why should Microsoft deny a license to Logitech?
At least now when their own wheel wasn't a big success.
This way they locked out the whole community of enthusiasts - until Fanatec came, of course.
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- 713
- UK
Nice to see a manufacturer on here!
My goal is to get a Fanatec Turbo S complete setup, but I'd love to be able to use my G25 on the 360 in the mean time..
There appears to be a huge market for an XID to HID converter 'box' to allow HID wheels to be used on the 360,
What hurdles in terms of licencing etc and technical hurdles would someone need to get over to implement something like this?
I see you can get XCM adapters for using PS3 pads on the 360 (and vice-versa), which kind of indicates on some levels it's not got too many technical hurdles?
I have developed several embedded proprietary devices (CAN->Ethernet->USB) etc, and was thinking that the technical side of things sounds fairly 'known', i.e. decode the XID, then construct the correct HID FFB sequence for each stored XID FFB preset, and replay that to the HID device, and conversely repackaged/deliver the HID positional info into the XID protocol..
But I guess I'd say the main hurdles for an individual would be
1. Is there any device authorisation etc that uses licensed/closed methods
2. Is the XID information easily available (I can't find anything via google)
Sorry if this appears OT, but it does seem in the vein of solutions for non-MS sanctioned wheels?
Is this something Fanatec have ever considered?
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- 790
- Germany
There is a security chip in each controller and we have to buy this chip (and in fact a complete RF module) from MS.
You can argue that MS wants to increase profits with doing so but it also prevents non-licensed peripherals which might not work with all games or even damage the console.
A console is about plug and play and therefore I think it is reasonable to have strict standards. In my opinion it is stupid to buy a microphone for this game and another one for that game.
The security chip has not been cracked so far so I guess they made it quite strong. But even if you crack it it would be very difficult to make an adapter for existing wheels. The protocol would have to be translated somehow which will lead to quality problems and delays.
If you have a G25 then you can just get the PWTS Pure version and continue to use your G25 pedals.
You can argue that MS wants to increase profits with doing so but it also prevents non-licensed peripherals which might not work with all games or even damage the console.
A console is about plug and play and therefore I think it is reasonable to have strict standards. In my opinion it is stupid to buy a microphone for this game and another one for that game.
The security chip has not been cracked so far so I guess they made it quite strong. But even if you crack it it would be very difficult to make an adapter for existing wheels. The protocol would have to be translated somehow which will lead to quality problems and delays.
If you have a G25 then you can just get the PWTS Pure version and continue to use your G25 pedals.
), copying data to/from USB
- 10,269
- Bonn
- GTAce
Is it Bluetooth or do you need a dongle?
- 713
- UK
The MS Wheel is actually OK..
The problem is if you come from a G25/Turbo S etc, the build quality is pretty much lower etc, but I've been using an MS Wheel since they first came out, and have done exceedingly well using it, it offers decent enough feedback and precision, just it feels cheap, that doesn't stop it being a reasonable input device..
Of course I'd love a Fanatec Turbo S, and am saving, but I really struggle to justify paying 4 times the price when it actually won't improve my laptimes and doesn't offer 4 times the immersion.
The problem is if you come from a G25/Turbo S etc, the build quality is pretty much lower etc, but I've been using an MS Wheel since they first came out, and have done exceedingly well using it, it offers decent enough feedback and precision, just it feels cheap, that doesn't stop it being a reasonable input device..
Of course I'd love a Fanatec Turbo S, and am saving, but I really struggle to justify paying 4 times the price when it actually won't improve my laptimes and doesn't offer 4 times the immersion.
![[empty space]](/forum/data/avatars/m/47/47550.jpg?1277426423){kind=avatar}
- 3,863
- forever_n00b
- random1self
how does the ms wheel compare to the old logitech wheels?
I don't know how you could mess up something that is standard though. Every USB webcam works perfectly fine on the PS3 and its games, every bluetooth headset works fine (quality is always different with every person you meet though), every controller, etc. Why does this have to be so complicated... I thought the logitech wheels would work... now I guess I'll have to play F3 with a controller while in the seat ha.
if you have the money, i would strongly suggest to go with the fanatec PWTS. Not only that it's multiplatform but it's brilliant to use, and fireware is upgradable.
I have pure edition of PWTS and i am using g25 peddles, and both of them works great. Forza3 has become something different.
I am looking forward to use this wheel with tdu2 and gt5.
I use 100% of ff from Forza3, but on wheel i use only 30% since that is more (strong) then enough.
I have pure edition of PWTS and i am using g25 peddles, and both of them works great. Forza3 has become something different.
I am looking forward to use this wheel with tdu2 and gt5.
I use 100% of ff from Forza3, but on wheel i use only 30% since that is more (strong) then enough.
- 1,000
- Northern VA
If you're comparing Fanatec and Logitech wheels, here's my rundown. Full disclosure: I settled on the Fanatec Porsche 911 Turbo S ClubSport Edition since I use it with PC, PS3, and Xbox 360. Forza 3 has taken most of my time lately.
Logitech G27
Fanatec Porsche 911 Turbo S (closest equivalent to G27)
My take is the G27 is a better value for most PC and PS3 users in that it nails more of the fundamentals better (paddle and stick shifter quality, clamping, pedal set). The G27 is a more complete package, whereas you can tell most of your money went into the wheel of the Turbo S itself (and it's a really nice wheel) vs the rest of the kit. That said, PC and PS3 owners may still want to give the Turbo S a shot. While it does have its quirks, some people are going to place more value in the incredibly smooth and precise belt drive system and/or the tuning menu built directly into the wheel firmware, which is especially handy for console gaming.
I think the Turbo S is a really tough value proposition if you only have a 360, though Forza 3 is pretty awesome with it. If you own a 360 plus a PS3 or PC, or all three, then the Turbo S gets really compelling. It's the only premium wheel that even works with the Xbox 360.
Final thoughts
Logitech G27
- ~$275 USD.
- Compatible with PC and PS3.
- USB connection.
- Gear drive dual motor FFB (works well, quick steering, a bit noisy, slight dead zone).
- Up to 900 Degrees of rotation (adjustable in software).
- Optical encoding (precise and reliable).
- 280mm" leather-wrapped steering wheel.
- 6 buttons plus paddles on wheel, 8 buttons and nice D-pad on shifter module.
- Solid clamping system for wheel and shifter module. Also hard mountable.
- 6+R H-gate shifter. A bit floppy, but feels pretty solid.
- Excellent metal paddle shifters with good placement and positive action.
- Good quality pedal box with clutch, brake, throttle. Unique feel for each pedals. Adjustable metal pedals. Carpet gripper.
Fanatec Porsche 911 Turbo S (closest equivalent to G27)
- ~$350 USD.
- Compatible with PC, PS3, and 360.
- Wireless to 360 (no dongle), wireless or wired to PC and PS3 (RF dongle or USB cable).
- Belt drive single motor FFB plus dual vibration motors (smooth and strong, fairly quiet, zero deadzone, very high precision).
- Up to 900 Degrees of rotation (fully adjustable from 90 to 900 degrees in wheel, or adjustable in software)
- Optical encoding (precise and reliable).
- 300mm" leather-wrapped steering wheel, chunky grip.
- 10 backlit buttons on wheel spokes, plus padles. Integral D-pad in wheel spoke, but poor feel.
- Quick-release table clamp for wheel (not too solid), or hard mountable. Shifter mounts to wheel via rods (not very solid at all).
- 6+R H-gate shifter. Firm but clicky, plasticky, and hollow. Swappable sequential shifter lever.
- Average quality metal paddle shifters mounted on plastic hinge. Works fine, but not much feel.
- Average quality pedal box with clutch, brake, throttle. Light, plastic construction, but each pedal has a unique feel.
- 5 customizable presets built into wheel hardware to tune rotation, FFB, vibration, dead zone, and more.
- Customizable drift mode to increase steering speed.
My take is the G27 is a better value for most PC and PS3 users in that it nails more of the fundamentals better (paddle and stick shifter quality, clamping, pedal set). The G27 is a more complete package, whereas you can tell most of your money went into the wheel of the Turbo S itself (and it's a really nice wheel) vs the rest of the kit. That said, PC and PS3 owners may still want to give the Turbo S a shot. While it does have its quirks, some people are going to place more value in the incredibly smooth and precise belt drive system and/or the tuning menu built directly into the wheel firmware, which is especially handy for console gaming.
I think the Turbo S is a really tough value proposition if you only have a 360, though Forza 3 is pretty awesome with it. If you own a 360 plus a PS3 or PC, or all three, then the Turbo S gets really compelling. It's the only premium wheel that even works with the Xbox 360.
Final thoughts
- If you want to use ClubSport pedals on a PS3, get the Turbo S and connect the pedals via the wheel.
- If you want to use ClubSport pedals on a PC, get your wheel of choice and connect the pedals via USB.
- If you have an Xbox 360 and at least a PC or PS3 too, and have the means, get a Turbo S. ClubSport pedals highly recommended.
- If you already have a Logitech G25 and don't need the stick shifter, get the Turbo S Pure Edition and use the G25 pedals.
- 790
- Germany
If you want to play only on the PC and PS3 we made the 911 GT3RS Clubsport edition which is much cheaper than the Turbo S and comes with the Clubsport Pedals made of metal.
This is actually the closest competition to the G27 from our product range.
We just introduced the new V2 upgrade which makes this wheel fully compatible to PS3 and brings all of the Tuning features of the PWTS Ultimate Edition.
This is actually the closest competition to the G27 from our product range.
We just introduced the new V2 upgrade which makes this wheel fully compatible to PS3 and brings all of the Tuning features of the PWTS Ultimate Edition.
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- 455
- Vesper37
Logitech DriveFX Racing Wheel
http://hardware.teamxbox.com/reviews/xbox-360/62/Logitech-DriveFX-Wheel/p1/
Worked with Forza 2, should with Forza 3 but haven't tested it yet.
It's a force feedback wheel with motor resistance ala DF:GT, Momo etc.
It's not too bad, a bit small though for my liking, I like my DF:GT too much
http://hardware.teamxbox.com/reviews/xbox-360/62/Logitech-DriveFX-Wheel/p1/
Worked with Forza 2, should with Forza 3 but haven't tested it yet.
It's a force feedback wheel with motor resistance ala DF:GT, Momo etc.
It's not too bad, a bit small though for my liking, I like my DF:GT too much
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Logitech DriveFX Racing Wheel
http://hardware.teamxbox.com/reviews/xbox-360/62/Logitech-DriveFX-Wheel/p1/
Worked with Forza 2, should with Forza 3 but haven't tested it yet.
It's a force feedback wheel with motor resistance ala DF:GT, Momo etc.
It's not too bad, a bit small though for my liking, I like my DF:GT too much
It's not force feedback like the DFGT, it's got vibration feedback like a dual shock except through the wheel.
