Road Test: Online Physics vs Offline Physics

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Tommy_861

Tommy_861

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Tommy_861
Online vs Offline, its a debate that has gone through here a few times with a lot of opinions on whats true or not.

Well this was my "scientific" attempt at quelling the debate somewhat. I decided to do a road test and I encourage others to try the same. I used the following:

09 Lotus Evora with 80 Miles, BONE STOCK, sufficiently broken in with 272 HP, Sports Soft Tires since I wanted to be as consistent as possible.

I conducted the test on Trial Mountain Circuit because I consider it one of my best and it has a good mix of fast and tight turns.

For each mode I did 4 laps including my warmup lap and I am posting only my two BEST times. I also went back to Practice mode after doing the online test and posted 2 more times for control.

These laps were also done at 95% to try and be as consistent as possible in my braking points, shifts, and throttle control. I just couldn't guarantee a fair comparison if I was hammering it out as hard as I could every lap.

First Practice Mode. 1:40.319 and 1:39.313. Car felt pretty well planted here nothing remarkable to report.

Second Online Free Run. 1:41.373 and 1:40.816. Car definitely felt SLIGHTLY twitchier, I felt like I was having to give it a bit more countersteer to stay on the pace I was trying to hold down.

Third Online Race. 1:41.886 and 1:40.335. No surprise here, same feeling as Free run although by the 3rd lap I definitely needed to hold the wheel a bit tighter to keep control. I set my fastest time in the final lap.

Fourth return to Practice Mode. 1:39.704 and 1:39.674. Stepping back into practice mode was definitely an eye opener, 1:39's came almost easily compared to a near fight for 1:40 in the online modes. Noticed something else I will mention later.

By no means is this a definitive answer and I urge people to take a shot at doing the same kind of test to see how it really feels. I am one of the people who said they believed the physics to be exactly the same, and I can't say my mind is changed, here is why.

I can say for sure there was definitely a difference in feel between both modes with online being a little harder to drive. However it was nowhere near turning the car from a great handler to an over-steering mess as some posts would have you believe. That said the car definitely needed more attention in the first two laps. BUT I still attribute it to tire wear and fuel (although obviously my consumption was very low).

What I noticed upon returning to practice mode is that while the tires were "cold" there was NO change in grip at all. The first lap online was an exercise in tiptoeing a bit till they warmed up while in practice the car just went, full tilt no problem from the beginning. My first lap was only 0.3 seconds off my best lap in my second practice run which is practically nothing.

Ultimately I can almost call my results inconclusive. My feeling is that its possible the tire modeling is very advanced which is what is causing the disparity in times as well as driving feel. Its possible that there is a standard grip setting for each specific tire for A-Spec that online is only reached at a certain point in its wear, and only briefly maybe for a lap or so. Otherwise its always below that grip level.

Anyone else want to give it a shot? Thoughts?
 
Tommy_861
Its possible that there is a standard grip setting for each specific tire for A-Spec that online is only reached at a certain point in its wear, and only briefly maybe for a lap or so. Otherwise its always below that grip level.
Click to expand...

Probable, would need to find some real world track data on tire compounds and where maximum grip is achieved to validate that theory. Certainly as good as theory as those put forth by others.
 
way different when drifting online vs offline, i find offline much more easy to balance the car

i also know for a fact that when drifting in my Drift tuned Lamborghini in practice mode i can drift around the first tunnel curve no problem with a perfect balance in the cars weight %90 of the time.
but when drifting that same corner online in free drive with the same car and same settings, i have over steered and spun out %100 of the time

i prefer drifting in practice mode!
 
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Nice theory. I can't help but think that altered grip would be noticeable on both axles. With different tires (to not say lesser), one would experience oversteer, understeer and a reduced turning ability for a set pace.

Not saying they don't play a part in the online difference, but they ain't alone there. I know that if I don't drive as if I had milk bottles in the trunk, I will surely face the wrong way on certain turns.

The best way to feel this difference (and maybe identify it) is to use a light MR car. Their natural balance is utterly destroyed online.
 
Practice mode is without fuel and tire wear, right? We knew this would be different then. The only question is if online is different from offline where fuel and tire wear are active (like in the endurance races for example).
 
Z1-AV69
Practice mode is without fuel and tire wear, right? We knew this would be different then. The only question is if online is different from offline where fuel and tire wear are active (like in the endurance races for example).
Click to expand...

You can enable tire wear and fuel consumption in offline practice but not under Free Run or Drift Trial, the option only shows up for One Make Race. It also shows up in another inconspicuous place, if you have ever made a custom course, then on GT Life's interface, there is a round button for your courses, in that view you can click the course to see details, at the bottom are three green buttons. The first one is Single Race, it also allows tire wear and fuel consumption in an offline practice setting; this only differs from One Make race in that the game uses the Arcade logic to find other cars that are similarly matched to your car as opponents rather than limited to single make.
 
blaktek
Nice theory. I can't help but think that altered grip would be noticeable on both axles. With different tires (to not say lesser), one would experience oversteer, understeer and a reduced turning ability for a set pace.

Not saying they don't play a part in the online difference, but they ain't alone there. I know that if I don't drive as if I had milk bottles in the trunk, I will surely face the wrong way on certain turns.

The best way to feel this difference (and maybe identify it) is to use a light MR car. Their natural balance is utterly destroyed online.
Click to expand...

What? Online gives you pretty much full sim approach, you would not be driving any car hard if you weren't familiar with it. Offline physics is definitely much more approachable because your tires do not have to heat up adequately before you achieve maximum grip, fuel consumption matters not, neither does it's weight factor in. Online everything is mentioned prior is a factor as well as ambient temperature, amount of downforce and weight of fuel. Offline you constantly have maximum grip, online, your grip varies and will continue to dynamically change with how much stress is applied to your tires. Also you might want to change your brake balance depending on your car, street cars are affected heavily by this, race cars not so much as they are almost perfectly weighted end to end. Keep these things in mind when you race online, they will definitely help keep you abreast of the situation. I'm an online racer so I'm used to this, but only recently payed attention to what was going on, because I was actively tuning a car for an upcoming race and noticed the downforce/tire temperature and degradation issue.
 
Cars definitely can't be rolled over online. Therefore who knows what other limitation or tweak against realism PD might have put.
 
Has anyone noticed the difference in the suspension physics of the car online? When you drive online the cars seem much more stable than they would be offline.Eg: the schwimwagen. It's much more easy to control online. Btw it's impossible to roll over a car online!

Edit: shirakawa beat me to it! :(
 
You beat me to it tommy. im going to conduct a similar test tonight using 6 different modes, 4 offline and 2 online. Im a firm believer that the physics are the same regardless and the difference in feel is purely down to tyre and fuel effect. As far as i can see your test adds weight to that conclusion as did a test another gt planet user conducted on another thread using a mazda furai at tskuba. Althouh il admit the difference in laptime was not as much as i thought it would be.

I think a lot of the misunderstanding about the different "feel" is purely down to people not quite understanding the effect of having a car full of fuel on cold tyres, this is when your car is going to be at its worst, i find that online it takes about 4-5 laps before the tyres fully come in compared to instant grip in a-spec mode. You have to remember that a car with a full tank of fue(online)l compared to an empty(a-spec offline) can differ massively in real life. F1 cars laptimes can differ by 5-6 seconds due to fuel levels.

When im driving my own car i can actually feel the difference from when its running low on fuel or when iv just filled it up and thats on a 1.8 honda civic driving on public roads. When its low on fuel it just feels better, nippier acceleration, slighty better braking, more nimble in corners. Its not much but it is there

I remember when codemasters f12010 was released a similar debate appeared on forums asking why some races felt different online from one another and different to timetrial and it was purely down to whither tyre wear and fuel depletion was on. Having it on made the cars upto 4 seconds a lap slower(And much more realistic)

Anyways these are just my opinions, i may be wrong(and have been before) but i shall report back with my findings later

P.s i actually think i may have found a way to prove the physics are the same but im going to keep that ace up my sleeve for laters, i probably wont get round to conducting that test until friday as it will be rather time consuming.

Keep up the good work guys
 
pantherjag
When im driving my own car i can actually feel the difference from when its running low on fuel or when iv just filled it up and thats on a 1.8 honda civic driving on public roads. When its low on fuel it just feels better, nippier acceleration, slighty better braking, more nimble in corners. Its not much but it is there
Click to expand...

Apply for F1 driver ASAP
 
Thanks for the time put in to this OP and this post isn't directed at you in particular.
BUT
Why don't people realise the physics are the same !!!!!!!!

Online equation is Cold tyres + tyre wear + fuel load = slower time. It isn't rocket science. The tyre model is a LOT more advanced than some know-it-all's would lead you to believe. A lot of time was put into slip angles and the like and it wasn't for nothing, take some time to actually read the Apex mag that comes with game ffs.

Offline none of these are taken into account UNLESS you go to Practice mode > One make race > turn Tyre/Fuel depletion ON.

Bottom line : The only the reason the physics 'change' is the physics behind the tyre model when depletion is turned off/on.
If you have cold tyre's and try floor it around the corners you would usually offline then yeah your gonna be in the sandtrap or having a face-to-face encouter with the wall.
 
Once I run a test where I compared the start of the LeMans 24h endurance race to a private lobby with Circuit de la Sarthe '09, 16.00h, sunny (same as in the endurance). It's the same track, the same conditions, both with tire wear and fuel active. I used the car I had used for the 24h race, so I knew the combination of track and car almost perfectly well. My first flying lap in both scenarios was only 0.1 sec different from each other. I couldn't find the slightest difference in feel/handling too. I tested all the different settings of the lobby like damage model etc., it was always the same. So I came to the conclusion that at least the private lobby uses exactly the same driving physics as the endurance races.
The tire physics where tire wear and fuel are off is very different though.
 
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When You go Online there is also differences in tyretemps.

Driving in My Lounge the tyres need 1-2 laps more to get
warm than in Open Lounge.
Driving in Open Lounge at Suzuka Your optimal temp is on
lap 3-4, while in My Lounge the tires don´t get really in the
right temp ever, before they start to worn out.

Then there is maybe differences in which Race Quality You
use, but I haven´t got the time to test it now. I use always
Race Quality --> Very High. But it feels different sometimes
when I enter someone elses room in Open Lounge, thats why
I think that the Race Quality could also be a factor.
 
Weather and time of day also play a big part in tyre temps.

Quote -Pantherjag
When im driving my own car i can actually feel the difference from when its running low on fuel or when iv just filled it up and thats on a 1.8 honda civic driving on public roads. When its low on fuel it just feels better, nippier acceleration, slighty better braking, more nimble in corners. Its not much but it is there

Veltenza -Apply for F1 driver ASAP

The thing about your sarcasm is that he's right, you can feel big difference between full tank and empty. Same as full car of passengers vs driving by yourself.
 
sk0pe
Weather and time of day also play a big part in tyre temps.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

Also worth noticing is that draft is more efficient in online than in offline.

Before 1.05 update draft was less-pronounced in online, but after 1.05 it came back to infamous realms of Prologue.
 
amar212
Exactly.

Also worth noticing is that draft is more efficient in online than in offline.

Before 1.05 update draft was less-pronounced in online, but after 1.05 it came back to infamous realms of Prologue.
Click to expand...

But only works Online in a Race, not in Free Run.
 
Like the maker of shift 2 said " We will leave the exact mathematical simulation side of things to Gran Turismo and the like, while we have a sim aspect to our physics model we want to focus on more of a race day feel, atmosphere and the feeling of speed inside a race car "

Seems clear to me the shift boys have realised how advanced the physics and tyre modelling are in GT5 and are steering well clear of going down that track.
 
Nice to see someone doing a proper test, well done. Personally I've not noticed any difference, but then again I'm not looking.


👍
 
SavageEvil
What? Online gives you pretty much full sim approach, you would not be driving any car hard if you weren't familiar with it. Offline physics is definitely much more approachable because your tires do not have to heat up adequately before you achieve maximum grip, fuel consumption matters not, neither does it's weight factor in. Online everything is mentioned prior is a factor as well as ambient temperature, amount of downforce and weight of fuel. Offline you constantly have maximum grip, online, your grip varies and will continue to dynamically change with how much stress is applied to your tires. Also you might want to change your brake balance depending on your car, street cars are affected heavily by this, race cars not so much as they are almost perfectly weighted end to end. Keep these things in mind when you race online, they will definitely help keep you abreast of the situation. I'm an online racer so I'm used to this, but only recently payed attention to what was going on, because I was actively tuning a car for an upcoming race and noticed the downforce/tire temperature and degradation issue.
Click to expand...

I do know that. I wasn't feeling like yelling at the OP that he forgot the fuel weight (100 liters in all cars is a bad idea), it's effect on the car, and said car's reaction to surface changes. He spent time testing, and some more reporting here. I was only pointing in a direction (which could be wrong).

Tires behavior couldn't explain on it's own the mostly "loose back-end" feeling everyone experiences.
 
blaktek
Nice theory. I can't help but think that altered grip would be noticeable on both axles. With different tires (to not say lesser), one would experience oversteer, understeer and a reduced turning ability for a set pace.

Not saying they don't play a part in the online difference, but they ain't alone there. I know that if I don't drive as if I had milk bottles in the trunk, I will surely face the wrong way on certain turns.

The best way to feel this difference (and maybe identify it) is to use a light MR car. Their natural balance is utterly destroyed online.
Click to expand...

Yes I noticed the altered grip on both ends, I was more responding to the messages here from many people that the cars turn into an "oversteering mess", but yes the grip difference is noticeable on both ends of the car.

I would have used the Elise instead of the Evora to do this test but I'm just not consistent in that car, the Evora I am and IMO it handles better hehe.

sk0pe
Thanks for the time put in to this OP and this post isn't directed at you in particular.
BUT
Why don't people realise the physics are the same !!!!!!!!

Online equation is Cold tyres + tyre wear + fuel load = slower time. It isn't rocket science. The tyre model is a LOT more advanced than some know-it-all's would lead you to believe. A lot of time was put into slip angles and the like and it wasn't for nothing, take some time to actually read the Apex mag that comes with game ffs.

Offline none of these are taken into account UNLESS you go to Practice mode > One make race > turn Tyre/Fuel depletion ON.

Bottom line : The only the reason the physics 'change' is the physics behind the tyre model when depletion is turned off/on.
If you have cold tyre's and try floor it around the corners you would usually offline then yeah your gonna be in the sandtrap or having a face-to-face encouter with the wall.
Click to expand...

I'm one of the people who was saying it was the same and the reason for this test was to try and prove it. I still stand by the feeling that it is the same and the tire/fuel depletion is what causes it.

VBR
Nice to see someone doing a proper test, well done. Personally I've not noticed any difference, but then again I'm not looking.


👍
Click to expand...

Thanks. I didn't notice one either originally, I had to go looking for it to find it.

blaktek
I do know that. I wasn't feeling like yelling at the OP that he forgot the fuel weight (100 liters in all cars is a bad idea), it's effect on the car, and said car's reaction to surface changes. He spent time testing, and some more reporting here. I was only pointing in a direction (which could be wrong).

Tires behavior couldn't explain on it's own the mostly "loose back-end" feeling everyone experiences.
Click to expand...

I did mention fuel weight, however my test was too short for it to be taken into account.

Along with my theory on the tires, my theory on fuel is that offline its either set to 0 or 100. Based on my test results I tend to think it is set to 100 offline and the tires were the only factor, because if it was set to 0 offline then I believe there would have been a larger disparity in my lap times.
 
I like these little suprise's Kazunori San has left us to find. Very well done on his part if you ask me.
We need to test just how much influence the weather/day.night system has, whether the tyre's take longer to heat on a cold night surface vs Mid afternoon sunshine, and etc..

I think by now we have come to the fair conclusion that offline is more 'approachable' and that online takes into account a lot more variables.
Now we just have to decipher exactly what variables Mr Yamauchi has thrown in.
 
sk0pe
I like these little suprise's Kazunori San has left us to find. Very well done on his part if you ask me.
We need to test just how much influence the weather/day.night system has, whether the tyre's take longer to heat on a cold night surface vs Mid afternoon sunshine, and etc..

I think by now we have come to the fair conclusion that offline is more 'approachable' and that online takes into account a lot more variables.
Now we just have to decipher exactly what variables Mr Yamauchi has thrown in.
Click to expand...

Based on past experience and not this test I believe day and night definitely does have an effect on grip online. I'd have to re-do this test with a day/night track to quantify it, but I have noticed it.
 
Tommy_861
Along with my theory on the tires, my theory on fuel is that offline its either set to 0 or 100. Based on my test results I tend to think it is set to 100 offline and the tires were the only factor, because if it was set to 0 offline then I believe there would have been a larger disparity in my lap times.
Click to expand...

In some old thread somebody was doing experiments with B-Spec driver on Lv40 forcing him to drive consistent laps on almost empty tank on LeMans.

It concluded that with being faster more than 0.500>0.900 per every next lap in later laps on pale-blue tires, with constant ideal pace before running out of fuel.

If really made as described, that experiment pretty much shows that fuel depletion makes significant influence on weight and corresponding lap-times in B-Spec offline at least.
 
The physics for online and offline do feel very different. Maybe it's just the fuel?

In offline, my Lutecia Sport V6 Phase 2 turns very sharp, but always in control. In online, the same car will spin out on the first turn while exiting a turn, whether or not I'm accelerating out of it.

Tommy_861
Based on past experience and not this test I believe day and night definitely does have an effect on grip online. I'd have to re-do this test with a day/night track to quantify it, but I have noticed it.
Click to expand...

It feels like it does. I've used my Murcielago SV on the 'ring w/o time change online and it handles fairly well. When I entered a lobby which was racing on the 'ring w/ time change, it was early morning on the track, and the car had a hard time staying stable exiting turns.
 
pzk
The physics for online and offline do feel very different. Maybe it's just the fuel?

In offline, my Lutecia Sport V6 Phase 2 turns very sharp, but always in control. In online, the same car will spin out on the first turn while exiting a turn, whether or not I'm accelerating out of it.



It feels like it does. I've used my Murcielago SV on the 'ring w/o time change online and it handles fairly well. When I entered a lobby which was racing on the 'ring w/ time change, it was early morning on the track, and the car had a hard time staying stable exiting turns.
Click to expand...

That there is the cold tires effect I described. First turn being the operative part.
 
You guys are all talking about Tyre temperature/ consumption and fuel gauge, but you really have to explain me why the online gameplay feels so different from Endurances, that have also Fuel and Tyre consumption? I've done some tests on Gran Valley with a bone stock NSX in both Grand Valley Endurance and Online, and it's for sure a different thing, online it's more slippery and is definatly different from online. Anyway I play a lot online, so this difference is not much a problem to me, but it's definatly here, no doubt on it in my opinion.
 

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