Project RUF Blackbird Grip Tune Settings Released

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No_OBsT33R

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This Project is dedicated to Tuning a Driver Friendly '87 RUF CTR.

Intro

I'm in the process of Tuning a RUF Yellowbird into a track devouring Blackbird. I'm looking to deal with the crazy oversteer, while maintaining the CTR's ability to carve a corner with the tail end out. The 87 CTR is unfortunately a fundamentally flawed car. Well to be true, it's really the 87 Porsche 911 that is flawed the CTR just brings those flaws to a more plain view. The weight balance of the vehicle from placing the engine behind the rear drive axle has put much of the cars weight far too much to the rear of the car. This is not ideal and the car handles like a hammer being thrown. The heavy side always wants to go around the light side. With the added power of the RUF, those rear wheels don't have much of a chance. However the CTR has used this fundamental flaw to it's advantage. The CTR is highly "tossable" and will track the front tires relatively easy with the rear's smoking away. This makes for an extremely "fun" car to drive. At the same time it's hurting lap times, but who cares when they are fishtailing around the 'Ring.

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I want to give this beast more performance around the track while getting oversteer in check, but at the same time retain that "Yellowbird" Character the CTR is known for.

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While still targeting a "Grip" Tune, what are the benchmarks I should go after? Hot laps around certain tracks with lap times under a accepted "fast" time, while maintaining good acceleration & top speed?

If so

What would be some good lap time targets etc?

I will keep the tune process updated here with how I'm tuning, what I'm doing and why etc. The goal is a contained FAST 86 RUF.

I'd also like to mention that so far the Yellowbird set ups I've tried have not done the cars ability justice IMHO. I've not tried them all so if there is a good one that you tried post it up, but no Tuners promoting their own Tunes please..

PROJECT UPDATE

Project Update

I've done much testing of various set ups at various tracks. I've done my own tweaking and tuning trying to get this Bird as fast as she can be. What a daunting task as this beast has various tuning challenges. As you begin to address one issue you inadvertently create another. Then you get lost in curing all the issues. Another thing I've noticed is that consistency when testing this car is incredibly difficult. I've found myself making incredible fast laps but unable to repeat the time consistently, and settings that would churn hot laps, they would churn a hot lap when finally contained and dancing on the edge of disaster the whole way through, a dance that is difficult to repeat with precision. It would seem that to accomplish my Project goal, I may have to settle for a car that was not the absolute fastest, but the most balanced and consistent. At the same time I can't completely tame the Beast, she still needs to be able to bite, but on demand.

I figured the biggest issue to address first and what would be impossible to overlook, was the incredible off balanced weight. The heavy rear end coupled with the earth shattering torque put out by the rear wheels makes for a touchy throttle pedal. Any tuning around such an offset weight/huge amount of torque would be an exercise in compromise in an attempt to contain the back end. It's basically like driving a hammer with the front end being the handle. When you hit a corner the heavy side always wants to go around the light side, as if you threw the hammer. In the case of the CTR this is the rear end swinging around the front wheels. I made many attempts to tune the suspension as is, but it became more and more apparent that the weight needs to be equalized before we can address the suspension tuning.

I began making some calculations to see how much weight was being tossed around and how much the balance was upset as it moved around. This was a great move because it showed me just how serious the Problem is. The front and rear weight balances are so far apart when weight is transferred that while looking at how loaded the tires are during braking/acceleration and cornering it was all too clear what needed to be done. Ballast, this would be the only way to balance the weight and establish the best starting point for tuning. According to my calculations we were looking at a need for close to 200kg of ballast on the front end to even out the weight. Now some people don't like the ballast because it does slow the car down, however when needed if done right it can be the answer to our problems. Seeing that there was a need for 200kg upfront I began making some other calculations based on some recent findings in regards to ballast. Some believe that when moving the ballast position you at the same time move the weight of the gas tank, or a 100kg of stock mass is moved with the ballast tank behind the scenes. When considering this if at position 0 there is 100kg behind the scene weight split between the front and back, then moving it in any direction will add 50kg in the direction you move it while taking 50kg off the other. So moving the ballast tank with nothing in it added 50kg to the front and took 50kg off the rear, after readjusting my calculations to account for this and the amount of weight transfer the new amount of ballast needed became 130kg up front approximately. So I toss 130kg and do some testing. The place I go is Eigar Nordwand because of that huge jump at the start. If I got an overly heavy side I should see some dip on the heavy side when in the air. I get the car air born, and she stays perfectly level and lands on all 4s.

With good often comes bad. So after I've been able to relatively balance the weight, I created a much heavier front end that doesn't want to go around corners. What?!?!? A Yellowbird that understeers? Yeah, until you hit the gas too hard and break out the rear end that just whips around the front. So now I've created more issues, just great. Well actually, it was pretty great. Yes I generated more issues to solve, however all of a sudden proper tuning techniques to address the issues with the suspension began to work, I also started seeing real consistency.

I decided to fully address the suspension at this point, I needed to put the huge torque causing throttle oversteer on the back burner until the suspension was balanced. I'll deal with the torque through gearing and LSD tuning. I figure when the suspension is in check the power would be easier to deal with. To do this I chocked the crap out of the motor until it was hard to break the tail end loose no matter how much throttle I gave. I then went all out on the suspension until I was satisfied I had it dialled in right.

Once I felt the suspension was in check, it was time to turn on the heat and unleash the 610ft-lb of Torque. Instantly it was more manageable with the suspension dialled in, I did need to tweak it to accommodate the new power but tuning this car at this point became easy. Gearing was a breeze; the only issue left at this point was the LSD.

The LSD was the touchiest area of the Tune, dialling it in right basically took much trial and error balancing the Initial Torque & Accel, while the Decel was a breeze. I spent many hours last night and this morning working on this, I felt it was dialled in on a 1:04.8XX lap at Eigar Nordwand. The car is set up and ready for testing.

I bring this set up over to multiple tracks, TGTT, Grand Valley, Suzuka, Fuji, and put down fast consistent laps, lap after lap. They are not as fast as I was able to get on more unstable configurations, but I'm running sick fast laps with consistency within tenths lap to lap, with the extra baggage...

The Decision has been made, Time to Paint the Yellow Bird Black....

I havent Tuned the Bird to be the fastes she can be. Through my testing I found that the fastest laps with this car come out of the most unstable settings and consistency with them is near non existant lap to lap. What I've done is tune the Bird to be more, balanced, Driver friendly, & consistant from lap to lap. While at the same time retaining the Character of the "YellowBird" in stock form where she can break the rear loose in a controled manner for "Fun" driving. I believe I've acomplished this, and the settings I will release I feel truely embody what the Project intended to acheive.

Stay Tuned for more details, a video of the Lap at Eigar Nordwand & the Reveling of the Settings.

DEMO VIDEOS

These are video demonstrations of the set up at work, they are ment to show the car's ballance and how much more composed the car is after being tuned up right.

Final Stages of Tuning at Eigar Nordwand
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtMx09pIJk8

A "Yellow Bird" becomes The "Black Bird" Grand Valley Lap
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUvpaQbYExI

UPDATE SETTINGS RELEASED

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Thanks for checking out the project.

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I'm in the process of trying to tune the Yellowbird, I'd be happy to post the results here.
Good luck. ;)
 
I can say that I'd be happy to review yellowbird tunes. My review thread is in my sig.

I think your goal should be to make it as fast as you can? I'd suggest by applying someone else's tune, checking your time on a specific track of your choice, and then tuning your car to beat their time. That said... a car that is tuned for one specific track doesn't mean it will necessarily be as good on another track.

Hopefully PD will add a RR series soon enough so that some of these excellent RR cars can come out of the woodwork!
 
It's hard to retain the feel of the yellowbird and improve on it. Usually people try to remove its oversteer and "normalize" the car. If you can tune the car while still retaining its feel I'd love to try the tune out. This is my favorite car next to the Fireblade. Good luck.
 
Any suggestions on an established tune to run some test with? There are a few different tunes for it, I'm checking if any of them had built a rep as a quality tune amongst the community.

First stop for tuning will be the Top Gear Test Track. I want to make this beast manageable around tight corners before I smooth it out at higher speed Tracks.

Would sub 1:10.000 be a reasonable goal?

My Stock bird is running 1:15's but it's a dance on the edge of total loss of control and fast lap. I want to at least get 5 seconds off the clock, but with much more ease doing so with much more consistency from lap to lap.

Is that reasonable, possible, or a benchmark that's not high enough? Opinions please.

Stage of Project

Baseline Testing
I'm running her as hard as possible on a variety of tracks that offer different characteristics. My goal now is to get a good feel for the cars natural character.

Tracks visited
TGTT
'Ring GP F
Trial Mountain
High Speed Ring
Suggestions?
 
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Any suggestions on a established tune to run some test with? There are a few different tunes for it, I'm checking if any of them had built a rep as a quality tune amongst the community.

First stop for tuning will be the Top Gear Test Track. I want to make this beast manageable around tight corners before I smooth it out at higher speed Tracks.

Would sub 1:10.000 at be a reasonable goal?

My Stock bird is running 1:15's but it's a dance on the edge of total loss of control and fast lap. I want to at least get 5 seconds off the clock, but with much more ease doing so with much more consistency from lap to lap.

Is that reasonable, possible, or a benchmark that's not high enough? Opinions please.

I know what you're saying with the "reputable" tuner, but really... it's a message board. I'd say, give them all a try and see which is the best for you?

The 4 that have been posted in Adrenaline's thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198751

Seem to be the benchmarks... so whatever they're running is what you need to aim to beat. TGTT is a good place to tune, but since it isn't a "real" track... that has any racing... it's hard to say what a good time for it is.
 
Ronald6
It's hard to retain the feel of the yellowbird and improve on it. Usually people try to remove its oversteer and "normalize" the car. If you can tune the car while still retaining its feel I'd love to try the tune out. This is my favorite car next to the Fireblade. Good luck.

It's one of my favorite too, I find it fun, but know it can be faster. Will I be able to get the speed without loosing the "Yellowbird's" feel will remain to be seen, but I will do my best and appreciate all testing and help getting there. I'm confident it can be done, I think all it will take is a few of us working at it like this together.

All & any help is appreciated.
 
EivlEvo
I know what you're saying with the "reputable" tuner, but really... it's a message board. I'd say, give them all a try and see which is the best for you?

The 4 that have been posted in Adrenaline's thread: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=198751

Seem to be the benchmarks... so whatever they're running is what you need to aim to beat. TGTT is a good place to tune, but since it isn't a "real" track... that has any racing... it's hard to say what a good time for it.

Kool

Was looking to see if any in particular had a rep, but your right message boars will have varied results. I'll grab those 4 run them to determine what one gets fastest laps for me then use it as my benchmark
 
When I did a Yellowbird for a request tune (actually also nicknamed Blackbird by the requester), I absolutely hated it. The amount of work needed to make it controllable is not worth it in my opinion.

As for actual benchmarks, I cant help. Perhaps instead of times, aim to complete 5-10 laps without crashing the car. Consistency is what makes a tune great, anyway.
 
RUF CTR "Yellow Bird" '87

Transmission:
1: 3.034
2: 2.199
3: 1.696
4: 1.371
5: 1.177
6: 0.914
Final: 2.850

- Top Speed : 340 km/h

Drive-train
Adjustable LSD (Front/Rear)
- Initial Torque : -/10
- Acceleration Sensitivity : -/10
- Braking Sensitivity : -/30

Suspension
Suspension (Front/Rear)
- Ride Height : -40/-40
- Spring Rate : 14.5/11.5
- Dampers (Extension) : 9/6
- Dampers (Compression) : 9/8
- Anti-Roll Bars : 7/6

Wheel Alignment (Front/Rear)
- Camber angle : 0.3/0.2
- Toe Angle : -0.70/+0.55 you're not blind

Brakes (Front/Rear)
- Brake Balance 4/3

TIRES : R3 / R3

Drive aids
- ABS : 1
Else all off , ENJOY
 
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VTiRoj
When I did a Yellowbird for a request tune (actually also nicknamed Blackbird by the requester), I absolutely hated it. The amount of work needed to make it controllable is not worth it in my opinion.

As for actual benchmarks, I cant help. Perhaps instead of times, aim to complete 5-10 laps without crashing the car. Consistency is what makes a tune great, anyway.

I see what you mean, I just did a few quick laps at the 'Ring GP F with the RVR Tune & it was nuts. The crazy throttle oversteer that was semi manageable when stock was elevated to an uncontrollable level, and corrections after breaking loose are lucky at best. Pulling off a clean lap is like a Mission Impossible, & when you do pull it off the lap times are disappointing. Stock the car felt like it was a bit on the wild side but fully modified it's an uncalled "Tasmanian Devil", maybe that should of been the Project Name.
 
praiano63
I'm in.
Here is the first one .Only 2 hours working on it , i think it's the way... tell me.

Transmission
- Top Speed : 410 km/h

Drive-train
Adjustable LSD (Front/Rear)
- Initial Torque : -/9
- Acceleration Sensitivity : -/15
- Braking Sensitivity : -/20

Suspension
Suspension (Front/Rear)
- Ride Height : -10/-30
- Spring Rate : 5.4/7.5
- Dampers (Extension) : 3/3
- Dampers (Compression) : 4/4
- Anti-Roll Bars : 5/4

Wheel Alignment (Front/Rear)
- Camber angle : 2.0/1.4
- Toe Angle : -0.15/+0.30

Brakes (Front/Rear)
- Brake Balance 6/6

TIRES : R3 / R3 also R2 / R3 option

Drive aids
- ABS : 1
Else all off

Sweet. I'll run that set up when I get back home (an hour or 2)

Thanks for jumping on board.
 
praiano63
I'm in.
Here is the first one .Only 2 hours working on it , i think it's the way... tell me.

Transmission
- Top Speed : 400 km/h

Drive-train
Adjustable LSD (Front/Rear)
- Initial Torque : -/9
- Acceleration Sensitivity : -/15
- Braking Sensitivity : -/20

Suspension
Suspension (Front/Rear)
- Ride Height : -10/-30
- Spring Rate : 5.4/7.5
- Dampers (Extension) : 3/3
- Dampers (Compression) : 4/4
- Anti-Roll Bars : 5/4

Wheel Alignment (Front/Rear)
- Camber angle : 2.0/1.4
- Toe Angle : -0.15/+0.30

Brakes (Front/Rear)
- Brake Balance 6/6

TIRES : R3 / R3 also R2 / R3 option

Drive aids
- ABS : 1
Else all off

Sorry, I got stuck on the RVR tune, it set me back a bit in testing, but I'm loading up these settings to see how she does, illl get back after I feel it out.
 
Mind telling me what the suspension setting limits are? I don't have a way to physically tune it but I have some interest in doing a quick "phone tune" on it.

What I'll do right now will merely be a rough guess of what I reckon it *should* want given it's attainable.

Ride Height: -10/0
Spring Rate: 7.4/12.6
Extension: 9/6
Compression: 4/6
Anti-Roll: 1-2/2-3

Camber: 1.7/3.0
Toe: -0.20/-0.05

LSD: 7/35/25

Gearing:

Set max speed to minimum, final drive to minimum, 1st gear to minimum. 5th/6th (whichever is top gear) to maximum (shortest). Space other gears appropriately.

Brake Balance: 4/6 if you prefer a bit of rotation as you ease off the brakes, 7/6 for stability.
 
TBPH, I think with a car like this... if you've had an honest go with it, and it appears to be "untunable" I think that someone willing to really put in the time might be able to sort out how to make this car fastest.

By that I mean... perhaps it isn't going to be fastest with such ridiculous power, and so then, find out which modifications to add to it that DO make it faster. Sort of the controllably fast theory.

I know there are a few cars on here that have "less than fully modded" tunes for them, and while I think that the less than fully modded system is great, being that this is a game there's also a place for the full on mods. It would be great to get the yellow bird running sick fast laps, but then again... as has been mentioned. Consistency is something that's good as well. Unless we're talking video game time attack?
 
I feel very easy with my setting, somebody give a test drive please, i think i'm on te G point........Or very close !
 
Sorry, I got stuck on the RVR tune, it set me back a bit in testing, but I'm loading up these settings to see how she does, illl get back after I feel it out.

My old tune was kind of.. horrible. Im working on a new one at the moment..
..you know one thats less horrible :sly:
 
EivlEvo
TBPH, I think with a car like this... if you've had an honest go with it, and it appears to be "untunable" I think that someone willing to really put in the time might be able to sort out how to make this car fastest.

By that I mean... perhaps it isn't going to be fastest with such ridiculous power, and so then, find out which modifications to add to it that DO make it faster. Sort of the controllably fast theory.

I know there are a few cars on here that have "less than fully modded" tunes for them, and while I think that the less than fully modded system is great, being that this is a game there's also a place for the full on mods. It would be great to get the yellow bird running sick fast laps, but then again... as has been mentioned. Consistency is something that's good as well. Unless we're talking video game time attack?

I think you're right on. Sometimes that extra go fast part or weight reductions can throw a chassis too far off balance and some out of the box techniques need be applied.

praiano63
I feel very easy with my setting, somebody give a test drive please, i think i'm on te G point........Or very close !

I will quickly now and some more tomorrow. I took off the Settings and decided to give a quick go biased on my current testing, I was able to bring lap times down to 1:54 at Grand Valley. This is quite an improvement over the other set ups I've tried so far, I'll give it a go with your Tune and compare.

Dylans1o
Just ran a 1.10.612 on TGTT with my new less horrible tune :dopey:
Will try to improve tomorrow!

That's a really good time. I was shooting for a sub 1:10 so that is right on the money. It seams your making progress. Nice.

I'm going to hit the sac after a few laps, I'll update more tomorrow, please keep it going in my absence. All we find together can help tune this beast.
 
I'll be running some more laps when I get home, also considering what shade-o-black for the Blackbirds paint job. I want matte black, but I hear the special paints get waisted on Standard model cars. Anybody try something like that and have a pic?

Thanks
 
I drove a couple laps on it and BAAAAAAMMM!

2:01,208 on suzuka circuit, no aids, except ABS 1!
But sadly, I couldn't beat the magical time of 2 min:nervous:


Tried my setup on TGTT and it's weird. I had massive problems to control the "car".
Of course it's a lot better than stock and i could manage a 1:07,663 (no aids, except ABS 1), but i'm still not happy with it.

Is TGTT just a bad track for tuning? I don't know......
 
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Sick times guys I'll be running them when I get back home. Your f-ing Fast Dudes. Hot Laps or consistent.

Yeah I'm shooting for a no aids set up. The ABS is alright only because PD falls miserably short on the braking dynamics.
 
praiano63
I feel very easy with my setting, somebody give a test drive please, i think i'm on te G point........Or very close !

I gave them a go and it wasn't doing it for me. Throttle oversteer was too much for me & next to impossible to straighten out after breaking loose.

Not not mention the oddest ride height.

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Keep at it, I'm sure you can get it better. Keep in mind it may be perfect for your style.

My goal is a car that most can enjoy. This thing is such a beast I might have to tune a slightly slower car thats more stable and consistent.

dr_slump
I drove a couple laps on it and BAAAAAAMMM!

2:01,208 on suzuka circuit, no aids, except ABS 1!
But sadly, I couldn't beat the magical time of 2 min:nervous:

Tried my setup on TGTT and it's weird. I had massive problems to control the "car".
Of course it's a lot better than stock and i could manage a 1:07,663 (no aids, except ABS 1), but i'm still not happy with it.

Is TGTT just a bad track for tuning? I don't know......

It sounds like you might be on to something, what's your set up?
 
It's true...It was good for me on the ring where i've set it. On Suzuka ,it was horible. I'm going to work on it again.... What a strange car!!!!! Let's go.
 
Mind giving what I posted on the last page a go? It's merely a guesstimate but it only takes about 30 seconds to figure out whether I'm onto something or a complete crackhead.
 
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