effects of weight distribution

nomis3613 · Jun 9, 2011

Now that update 1.10 lets us see the weight distribution when setting ballast, this could give some interesting insight into the static weight effects and the PP calculation. I've started this thread as a place to discuss what you find.

Here's some quick observations of mine:
- Ruf BTR '86 has 40/60 without ballast
- Ferrari F40 has 50/50 without ballast
- Dodge Challenger SRT8 has 56/44 without ballast
- Shelby Cobra has 48/52 without ballast (whaaaaat?)
- the "cancel" button doesn't work (it accepts the settings, just like OK)
- even though the Ruf BTR is already rear biased, taking 100kg and moving it rearwards actually increases the PP
- haven't driven anything yet, but will be interested to see whether there is a handling benefit to making every car 50/50
- seems rake (ride height) doesn't affect static weight distribution

TT3AZ · Jun 9, 2011

The question is also, where on the car does the ballast weight be put. If i chouse for example position 50, does the ballast weight be put on the rear axles or in the far back of the car? You understand what i mean? Because different cars has different distance between the wheels.

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

TT3AZ
The question is also, where on the car does the ballast weight be put. If i chouse for example position 50, does the ballast weight be put on the rear axles or in the far back of the car? You understand what i mean? Because different cars has different distance between the wheels.

I got cha.

Im thinking it's over the axle, but somebodies gonna have to test it out.

dr_slump · Jun 9, 2011

nomis3613
- Shelby Cobra has 48/52 without ballast (whaaaaat?)

That's no surprise. The real one has exactly the same.

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

If looked at as a percentage it don't matter what the wheelbase is (as far as for choosing ballast placement) as a setting of 25 will be 50% between the center of the wheelbase and the given axle (if it's the axle) if it's the furthest point same thing but between the center and the furthest point.

I'm interested in the effects of 0 ballast movement on the menu and then the Track.

For the Shelby Cobra the WD is no surprise, the engine is placed very Mid-Ship-Ish. The seat position far to the rear almost over the rear axle. Makes yah think though doesn't it.

dr_slump · Jun 9, 2011

Yeah and the flywheel of the Shelby was very dangerous! :lol:

~~I don't think that the -50/50 added weight distribution is a percentage.~~

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

It's real easy to calculate percentage on a 100 point scale.

48/52 = 48 + 52 = 100%

-50 to 0 = 50
0 to 50 = 50
50 + 50 = 100%

CyKosis1973 · Jun 9, 2011

No_OBsT33R
I'm interested in the effects of 0 ballast movement on the menu and then the Track.

Moving "0" weight on the ballast screen does nothing to change the distribution. This I do know. What affects there maybe on handling after moving 0 weight, I don't know.

For the OP, I took my stripped out Premium V6 Clio and added 33kg behind the front number plate to 50 / 50 it. Evened the SR and dampers but left all other suspension settings as was (Slightly heavier F ARB and nose low / tail high ride height, a good bit of camber and a touch of toe).

The drive around Circ de la Sarthe is now even more sublime than before. Previously I had the rear set slightly harder to compensate for the extra weight. I wouldn't say my times got quicker, but with the car even and flat it drove better, particularly the final two left/right handers. This thing loves it rough through there :sly:

I do appreciate that this car might not be a great example of the affects of 50/50 distribution as it is MR and has a tiny wheelbase...

{Cy}

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

CyKosis1973
Moving "0" weight on the ballast screen does nothing to change the distribution. This I do know. What affects there maybe on handling after moving 0 weight, I don't know.

For the OP, I took my stripped out Premium V6 Clio and added 33kg behind the front number plate to 50 / 50 it. Evened the SR and dampers but left all other suspension settings as was (Slightly heavier F ARB and nose low / tail high ride height, a good bit of camber and a touch of toe).

The drive around Circ de la Sarthe is now even more sublime than before. Previously I had the rear set slightly harder to compensate for the extra weight. I wouldn't say my times got quicker, but with the car even and flat it drove better, particularly the final two left/right handers. This thing loves it rough through there

I do appreciate that this car might not be a great example of the affects of 50/50 distribution as it is MR and has a tiny wheelbase...

{Cy}

A question, any slower with the extra weight? Even though it's not much.

CyKosis1973 · Jun 9, 2011

No_OBsT33R
A question, any slower with the extra weight? Even though it's not much.

Difficult to tell at the moment Sir. I can loose 2-3 secs on the Sarthe easily with or without extra weight and 33kg isn't quite enough to matter more than those 2-3 secs :indiff:

. I still seem to be knocking in fairly consistent 4:45s though and I do believe that the car drives better for being evened out...

{Cy}

dr_slump · Jun 9, 2011

No_OBsT33R
Whut?????? Confused?

It's real easy to calculate percentage on a 100 point scale.

48/52 = 48 + 52 = 100%

-50 to 0 = 50
0 to 50 = 50
50 + 50 = 100%

How is it not?

Uhm, what?

48/52 is of course a percentage! :lol:

But this -50/+50 thing......Ups ahh sorry I reread you post and it's clear.
Haha, what a mistake I did......

EDIT: (Ahh edit the quote of my post, please. It is embarrassing... :lol:

)

TT3AZ · Jun 9, 2011

As im doing alot of straight line racing, i can tell that adding weight does affect the top speed. At least on those cars i have tested, and even 20 kg affected the top speed.

dr_slump · Jun 9, 2011

TT3AZ
As im doing alot of straight line racing, i can tell that adding weight does affect the top speed. At least on those cars i have tested, and even 20 kg affected the top speed.

But I heard that 50kg in a Nascar on Daytona doesn't make a difference(?).

Don't you mean acceleration?

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

dr_slump
EDIT: (Ahh edit the quote of my post, please. It is embarrassing...)

No prob, done.

TT3AZ · Jun 9, 2011

dr_slump
But I heard that 50kg in a Nascar on Daytona doesn't make a difference(?).

Don't you mean acceleration?

Well i dont know, but as far as i have seen, adding weight does affect the top speed and acceleration. I dont know if it has changed since this update. But why dont test it out yourself on a long straight, then you know for sure.

Drewsifer3x · Jun 9, 2011

I can say that this going to really help all my fail-wheel drives out a lot.

Adrenaline · Jun 9, 2011

I'm not sure I understand.
Are you all implying that you're going to add ballast to cars just to hit some magic number?
Am I the only one who thinks the less balanced car with less weight will be faster?
Or are we talking about PP specific races, where adding the weight allows you to add power to compensate. Where even still, the lighter, lower powered car still seems to prevail...?

Drewsifer3x · Jun 9, 2011

Haven't gotten a new lap time saved, but my celica handles so much better corner balanced than it did before. It eliminates some guess work for me, since I am very confused about how the ride height etc. even works in gt5.
It would be better if they would actually show us axle weights as we tune the suspension.

Rotary Junkie · Jun 9, 2011

Adrenaline
I'm not sure I understand.
Are you all implying that you're going to add ballast to cars just to hit some magic number?
Am I the only one who thinks the less balanced car with less weight will be faster?
Or are we talking about PP specific races, where adding the weight allows you to add power to compensate. Where even still, the lighter, lower powered car still seems to prevail...?

It would seem to depend on the car.

A lot of MR/RR vehicles (and a few FRs) have larger rear tires than front, which would dictate a rearward weight bias for neutrality's sake mid-corner.

Also of note is that 50/50 will generally be tight in, loose out and neutral on center.

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

Adrenaline
I'm not sure I understand.
Are you all implying that you're going to add ballast to cars just to hit some magic number?
Am I the only one who thinks the less balanced car with less weight will be faster?
Or are we talking about PP specific races, where adding the weight allows you to add power to compensate. Where even still, the lighter, lower powered car still seems to prevail...?

All of it, and none of it at all. Lol

It depends, it depends, it depends.

When Maxing-out a car I don't like adding mass ever, except for extreme cases where the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. These are RARE cases. In this sence I agree.

However when getting into PP specific races it becomes interesting. If a few kg (like the 33kg or so for the Clio I believe) is needed to hit 50/50 IF tuned right could yield a better performing vehicle. Then the same Clio tuned to the same PP but unbalanced.

More importantly

When playing GTP there was PP specific races and finding a good medium between PP from power, and PP from reduced weight was extreamly important. Going too strong on either side was not optimum.

I had an un-updated copy as I was running a DEV unit. Pre-Updated the final Tuner Car race had 700pp limit on the users car, without changing the AI limits PD upped the allowed PP to 750 to make the race beatable. I had managed to hit 2nd place a few times before updating and smashing the event first time back out. Balancing my PP gains from HP increase & weight reduction was crucial for optimum performance at a specific PP Level. As with pretty much everything in tuning, it's about balance.

I'd like to do some PP tuning, but never get any PP specific request.

CyKosis1973 · Jun 9, 2011

There are many reasons for adding weight to a car. There are many reasons for stripping out every last ounce.

For me and my race buds, this is a tremendous addition. Mostly out races are restricted on weight and power. Usually the minimum weight will be higher than what a car can be stripped to. So being able to strip below restriction, ballast back up and then move that weight around with a dynamic display of distribution, is superb.

What I am a little disappointed about is not being able to adjust the distribution without adding weight. I can adjust the balance in my manky '04 Ford Fiesta, without adding weight, why can't I move a percentage of the car's total weight in-game..??

{Cy}

No_OBsT33R · Jun 9, 2011

CyKosis1973
There are many reasons for adding weight to a car. There are many reasons for stripping out every last ounce.

For me and my race buds, this is a tremendous addition. Mostly out races are restricted on weight and power. Usually the minimum weight will be higher than what a car can be stripped to. So being able to strip below restriction, ballast back up and then move that weight around with a dynamic display of distribution, is superb.

What I am a little disappointed about is not being able to adjust the distribution without adding weight. I can adjust the balance in my manky '04 Ford Fiesta, without adding weight, why can't I move a percentage of the car's total weight in-game..??

{Cy}

I couldn't agree more. I've used ballast the same way in GT4 in Tuner shoot-outs. Worked like a charm, I was hitting corner speeds that were nuts in a Blue Dragon ITR

Basilea · Jun 10, 2011

Do cars drive the same without weight reduction and with + added ballast to the same weight with the same weight balance? That's a question going around my head right now...

CyKosis1973 · Jun 10, 2011

No_OBsT33R
I couldn't agree more. I've used ballast the same way in GT4 in Tuner shoot-outs. Worked like a charm, I was hitting corner speeds that were nuts in a Blue Dragon ITR

I seem to remember using ballast of occasion in GT4. I'll use even more so now. Worth noting that on some cars, it simply won't be worth trying to balance the car by adding weight, as you'll never be able to do it without crushing your suspension. If I remember rightly, the Premium Fiat 500 has a weight distribution of something daft like 70/30. You've got to throw soooo much weight into it to hit 50/50 that you risk bursting your tyres..!!

Whereas the Premium V6 Clio I think benefits from having a mere 33kg thrown in the front to balance it. Yes, you'll be 33kg heavier than the next car, but honestly with the weight balanced, you can throw this car all over the place, without that nagging fear of the rear deciding its faster than the front.

Horses for courses, really. I'm looking forward to some of the big boys using this new feature in their builds

Basilea
Do cars drive the same without weight reduction and with + added ballast to the same weight with the same weight balance? That's a question going around my head right now...

As far as I can tell, centred ballast doesn't make the car handle any different to a stripped car of the same weight. But then I'm a bit of a clunky fisted monkey, so my opinion is not gospel. There are threads elsewhere (look in budious' threads, possibly), or at least some posts here that suggest adding a single kg and moving it can affect tyre wear.

I've got some spare grinding Cr, so maybe over the weekend I'll buy another V6 Clio and strip it down to as close to my current ballasted one and see how they drive back-to-back...

{Cy}

nomis3613 · Jun 10, 2011

Basilea
Do cars drive the same without weight reduction and with + added ballast to the same weight with the same weight balance? That's a question going around my head right now...

I've only tested one FR and one FF, but so far any of the weight reductions (including window and bonnet) make no difference to the weight balance. I'll be interested to hear what you think of it from behind the wheel.

Since moving 0kg no longer affects PP, it appears that they've also updated the ballast stuff in general. I wonder if the glitch budious found (running 1kg ballast to override the fuel weight modelling) has also been patched.

Also, I found it really strange that the PP increased when an already rear-biased car (Ruf BTR- default 40/60) had the ballast moved rearwards.

-raVer- · Jun 10, 2011

I find it really strange , moving ballast rearwards on other cars than FFs.

raVer

CyKosis1973 · Jun 10, 2011

nomis3613
Since moving 0kg no longer affects PP, it appears that they've also updated the ballast stuff in general. I wonder if the glitch budious found (running 1kg ballast to override the fuel weight modelling) has also been patched.

Thank you, knew I'd read something, somewhere. My brain is failing me slowly and surely...

-raVer-
I find it really strange , moving ballast rearwards on other cars than FFs.

I suspect that's why it's odd that PP increases when you move ballast in what appears to be a unhelpful direction, as per below :indiff:

I'm not sure PP should be affected by where you place ballast. Certainly lower PP for adding weight, and raise for lowering weight, but not because you've moved the extra weight within the car.

nomis3613
Also, I found it really strange that the PP increased when an already rear-biased car (Ruf BTR- default 40/60) had the ballast moved rearwards.

{Cy}

shirakawaa · Jun 10, 2011

I find there's need for an option (maybe a checkbox?) to include fuel and driver weight into weight distribution calculation as, at least in online races where fuel/tire depletion is enabled, they're taken into account and especially on light cars they affect noticeably car balancement.

Rotary Junkie · Jun 10, 2011

SHIRAKAWA Akira
I find there's need for an option (maybe a checkbox?) to include fuel and driver weight into weight distribution calculation as, at least in online races where fuel/tire depletion is enabled, they're taken into account and especially on light cars they affect noticeably car balancement.

I'm not sure if driver weight is added in online but fuel weight certainly is, as evidenced by lower straight speeds and generally a reaction to added weight where the fuel tank should be. (Resulting in oversteer on front engine vehicles, understeer on mid/rear engine vehicles w/ some exceptions)

effects of weight distribution

nomis3613

TT3AZ

No_OBsT33R

dr_slump

No_OBsT33R

dr_slump

No_OBsT33R

CyKosis1973

No_OBsT33R

CyKosis1973

dr_slump

TT3AZ

dr_slump

No_OBsT33R

TT3AZ

Drewsifer3x

Adrenaline

Drewsifer3x

Rotary Junkie

No_OBsT33R

CyKosis1973

No_OBsT33R

Basilea

CyKosis1973

nomis3613

-raVer-

CyKosis1973

shirakawaa

Rotary Junkie

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