Stabilizer conflicts

After doing a thorough search and coming up with extremely contradictory stabilizer information, i've finally had the guts to ask about it on a thread =P

anyways... the stabilizer simply provides roll resistance when cornering right? and the stiffer the stabilizer the less roll there is? however, with more roll-resistance comes more, and quicker weight-transfer, which means the outside tires, after a certain stiffness, will overload and start sliding.

However, one thing i haven't been able to make sure of is which setting means a stiffer bar? i Know higher usually means stiffer, but some people don't seem to see it that way. This in turn leads to the question of high/low front/rear setting to control under and oversteer.

If a higher setting means a stiffer bar, then to eliminate understeer, we would want a low front and high rear setting right? that gives better traction to the front tires and allows the rear tires to slide more....

but many many guides claim front high/rear low to increase oversteer. Would this be becaus with a low setting in the rear, there's more body roll that that should help the rear lose traction? This has confused me for a while... any feedback appreciated. thanks

Chishi

Hi Chi

The issue of Stabaliser balancing is not an easy one as they are affected by any other changes that you make to the suspension that alters the handling of weight transfer in cornering situations.

However, in my experience there are essentially three main stabaliser setups that I use (and I subscribe to the Higher is Stiffer school of thought on this issue):

1) Front Stabaliser one click higher than the Rear to give a more 'solid' handling feel on a 'twitchy' car without inducing too much noticeable Understeer.

2) Front and Rear equal (by far the most common setting I use, generally 4/4) to counter roll without giving rise to problems with bumps, Rumble Strips and uneneven track surfaces (which can upset the balance of a car with its Stabs wound too tight).

3) Rear two clicks stiffer than the Front (usually 3/5) to give a more general Oversteering characteristic to the car when I can't fine tune that in through the Damper/Spring/Toe/Camber/Brake Balance/LSD/Downforce juggling act .

Hope that the above is at least sort of on target for you - if not, I'm sure you'll soon get some more {and probably contradictory } advice.

chishifu

If a higher setting means a stiffer bar, then to eliminate understeer, we would want a low front and high rear setting right? that gives better traction to the front tires and allows the rear tires to slide more....

but many many guides claim front high/rear low to increase oversteer. Would this be becaus with a low setting in the rear, there's more body roll that that should help the rear lose traction? This has confused me for a while... any feedback appreciated. thanks

Chishi

Click to expand...

Hi, Chishi, and welcome to GTPlanet! Enjoy your stay with us.

You've just encountered one of the fundamental laws of the Internet: it's easy to look like an expert even if you have no idea what you're talking about. Many of the guides are quite faulty in the information they give out. Luckily there are great chaps like ^^^^^ sukerkin up there who are always vigilant. ///M-Spec's Guide, stickied at the top, is also verified good information. It's generally guys who have wrenched on cars (or at least spent real time behind the wheel) in the real world who can give the best tips.

For the record, you are correct: common practice for reducing understeer is to increase the diameter (and hence the stiffness) of the rear stabilizer bar. A simple change from 16mm to 20mm on the back of my ACR did wonders to neutralize the handling. And also for the record, I support sukerkin's notes about in-game stabilizer tuning as well.

I understand the difficulty that so many have with understanding what certain tuning does to a car in GT3. So many on this board throw out the terms "understeer" and "oversteer" and no one cares whether the poster is interested in "corner entry" or "corner exit". By failing to be clear and concise, there are too many GT3 players that get the wrong information when they think they are getting the right information.

Picture this;


Lets say I have the stabalizers on my RUF RGT at 5f-5r. I decide that i want more responsive steering, so I increase my front bar strength to 6. When I test the car with the new front bar setting, I will find that I have a more responsive car turning into a corner, but as I hit the apex and exit the corner, I find that my front tires seem to be understeering a tad more. By simply speeding up the weight transfer for the front of my car, I have increased "oversteer" potential on entry, yet increased "understeer" on exit. Your tuning for everything in GT3 will have a trade-off.

Wait a minute... um... is a higher number (sliding the bar to the right) stiffer or softer?
i always thought a higher number meant at stiffer setting, but i've found that the lower the number... the more responsive the car is. Thats another thing thats confused me... is it stiffer putting the bar to the right or to the left? because many guids have different ideas on taht one also, and munkkeee just disagreed with m-spec i think....

oh.. i actually have one more question, and that has to do with spring rates and shocks. According to m-spec and most tuning guides, a stiffer rear-setting and softer front setting induces over-steer because the rear patters along the ground and loses traction more easily. However, silviadrifter (a mod of the drift forum and someone who's opinion i really respect) says that a higher front spring rate helps keep the car planted throughout the corners and lets the rear wheels slide more.

I was wondering which actually is correct, because i notice more oversteer with a high front, low rear setting for springs, but the physics of everything makes me want to believe a higher rear lower front means oversteer.

Lastly, why would you have stronger shocks with stiffer spring rates? Here's my understanding of it. With stiffer spring rates, you have less body roll and less suspension travel. This results in a more responsive handling, but with too stiff of a rate, the wheel patters across the ground. Shocks dampen the compression and the extension of the springs. So why would you have the spring compress even slower if you already have a really stiff spring rate?

thanks for any advice,
Chishi

ps: for shocks also... which is sitffer, a higher (farther right) or lower (farther left) number?

OK, here goes. I'll take my best shot at this.

chishifu

Wait a minute... um... is a higher number (sliding the bar to the right) stiffer or softer?

i always thought a higher number meant at stiffer setting, but i've found that the lower the number... the more responsive the car is. Thats another thing thats confused me... is it stiffer putting the bar to the right or to the left? because many guids have different ideas on taht one also, and munkkeee just disagreed with m-spec i think....

Click to expand...

Higher number is stiffer, in stabilizers, springs, and struts.

For swaybars, a higher number means more load is transferred from outside to inside wheel.

For springs, a higher number means they are more resistant to compression.

For dampers, a higher number in bound means they are more resistant to compression, and a higher rebound means they return to position more quickly.

oh.. i actually have one more question, and that has to do with spring rates and shocks. According to m-spec and most tuning guides, a stiffer rear-setting and softer front setting induces over-steer because the rear patters along the ground and loses traction more easily. However, silviadrifter (a mod of the drift forum and someone who's opinion i really respect) says that a higher front spring rate helps keep the car planted throughout the corners and lets the rear wheels slide more.

Click to expand...

Drifting may well be a different story, since the car is rarely allowed to stay composed on its suspension. You're deliberately setting the car up and driving it to be unsettled, so all theory is set aside to some extent.

I was wondering which actually is correct, because i notice more oversteer with a high front, low rear setting for springs, but the physics of everything makes me want to believe a higher rear lower front means oversteer.

Click to expand...

Well, in addition to different desired results, different drivers have different preferences and impressions. The main thing to remember is that all suspension settings are interrelated, and making radical adjustments may affect response in odd ways. Also, making more than one adjustment at a time can make understanding the results very difficult.

Lastly, why would you have stronger shocks with stiffer spring rates? Here's my understanding of it. With stiffer spring rates, you have less body roll and less suspension travel. This results in a more responsive handling, but with too stiff of a rate, the wheel patters across the ground. Shocks dampen the compression and the extension of the springs. So why would you have the spring compress even slower if you already have a really stiff spring rate?

Click to expand...

Because if the car is over sprung and under damped, it will porpoise or bounce a lot, oscillating up and down on the stiff springs because the dampers are not up to the task of stopping the bounce after the initial bump.

Likewise, over damped and under sprung cars will feel dead because the dampers inhibit the working of the suspension too much. In real life the dampers may actually 'pump down' from repeated compression without enough spring to force them to rebound properly, resulting in the ride height actually decreasing as the car rolls forward. This doesn't seem to be modelled in GT3, though.

thanks for any advice,
Chishi

ps: for shocks also... which is sitffer, a higher (farther right) or lower (farther left) number?

Click to expand...

You're welcome. See above for that answer. Also, look at the "Online Racing School" board for a few other discussions on suspension settings.

thanks a lot man, it's starting to make much more sense.

First time i've ever gotten such detailed responses to my thread. So my feeling of oversteer with lower numbers for my stabilizers is probably just my persona feel right?
same with the higher front spring rates and so on. That makes much more sense, thanks a lot again! =)

Chishi

For dampers, a higher number in bound means they are more resistant to compression, and a higher rebound means they return to position more quickly.

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Neon,

I'm assuming you just made a typo on the rebound. For both Bound and rebound, the higher number signifies more resistance against the direction the energy wants to travel. You don't reverse it for each one. To make it easy, higher numbers mean more body control for both bound and rebound.

That's actually the conclusion of a long running discourse in GT tuning circles rather than a typo, Mr. M.

I'm by no means utterly convinced of it myself but the empirical evidence seems to support it. That is that increasing the value for Rebound works to steady the rate of weight transfer thus moderating oversteer or generating understeer (in other words the Rebound is working quicker to keep the weight of the car off the axle that damper is attached to).

All I know is that my set-ups nearly always end up with higher Rebound values than Bound values .

munkeeeee

Neon,

I'm assuming you just made a typo on the rebound. For both Bound and rebound, the higher number signifies more resistance against the direction the energy wants to travel. You don't reverse it for each one. To make it easy, higher numbers mean more body control for both bound and rebound.

Click to expand...

Well, as sukerkin noted, that's an issue for debate. But based on my knowledge of what the settings do to the car's handling, and from watching wheel/body action during replays, I stand by my statement that high rebound numbers mean the wheel returns to static position more quickly. This means that it in rebound it translates to looser valving on the rebound side of the damper with a higher number.

I just re-read some old posts, and I see what you guys mean about the split camp on rebound settings. I'm going to start a new post on this issue, and see if we can't swap some test ideas.