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Hi guys!!! I was just wondering if anyone can give me tips on using left-foot braking and e-brake for front-wheel drive cars.
FF Driving
- Thread starter Driftnewb110
- 37 comments
- 2,074 views
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
Neon Duke I just read your article on FWD cars. You sure know your stuff 
I'm actually impressed with the accuracy of your article. Being a struggling race car driver here in the Philippines, your article helps alot not only in GT but in real life as well. Here's a link to our local racing league here in the Philippines. Check it out if you want http://www.autoindustriya.com/motorsports/racereport.php?id=5
I'm actually impressed with the accuracy of your article. Being a struggling race car driver here in the Philippines, your article helps alot not only in GT but in real life as well. Here's a link to our local racing league here in the Philippines. Check it out if you want http://www.autoindustriya.com/motorsports/racereport.php?id=5
- 407
- Sydney
- Archer28
MatWNeon Duke I just read your article on FWD cars. You sure know your stuff
Do you race in the league or are u a spectator?
- 630
GROOOVY!! I was born in the Philippines, but I now live here in the states. I was just there a few months ago.
If you were a noob you soo would have gotten chewed out to "use the search button" .........Did you btw?
- 630
I just did free run on SS5wet, I got a time of 1'44 with my Spoon Civic(fully tuned except LSD and brake controler) and I did the same with a stock 400R and got a time of 1'43. My Civic still understeers, even if I set the rear toe at -2, front toe +.5, camber 2.5 front 1.0back, and I left everything the same. How do I change
that?
I actually did you the search button. The most that I found useful was someone saying that it better to using the buttons instead of the right analog stick so you can do left-foot braking.
that?
I actually did you the search button. The most that I found useful was someone saying that it better to using the buttons instead of the right analog stick so you can do left-foot braking.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
I don't like left-foot braking. Theoretically it reduces the transition time from acceleration to deacceleration, but I find that many people (myself included) brake too early and too much with the left foot.
Driftnewb: Definitely invest in the LSD. That will help the car pull out of the corners better. For the wet track, you might want to rey reducing the values to 5/5/5, though. Also, reduce your rear camber to zero and stiffen up the rear stabilizer a notch or two. If it still won't rotate enough, stiffen the rear bound and soften the front rebound to help keep the weight on the front wheels on turn exit.
MatW: Thanks! I don't get to drive competitively nearly as much as I want - I've managed a few autocrosses and a track day here and there - but I do try to understand what makes a car behave. I'm planning on running more of an autocross campaign in a few years, and I'm a huge fan of SCCA Club racing. That's very much like the cars in your racing league. I read through a number of the race reports and looked at the pictures - it looks like you guys have some very nicely prepared cars there! I'm impressed that you're so actively involved.
Driftnewb: Definitely invest in the LSD. That will help the car pull out of the corners better. For the wet track, you might want to rey reducing the values to 5/5/5, though. Also, reduce your rear camber to zero and stiffen up the rear stabilizer a notch or two. If it still won't rotate enough, stiffen the rear bound and soften the front rebound to help keep the weight on the front wheels on turn exit.
MatW: Thanks! I don't get to drive competitively nearly as much as I want - I've managed a few autocrosses and a track day here and there - but I do try to understand what makes a car behave. I'm planning on running more of an autocross campaign in a few years, and I'm a huge fan of SCCA Club racing. That's very much like the cars in your racing league. I read through a number of the race reports and looked at the pictures - it looks like you guys have some very nicely prepared cars there! I'm impressed that you're so actively involved.
- 327
are you talking real life left-foot-braking or in the game? i've never tried it in gt3 because i use sticks, but in real life i think you can be consistently quicker in FF by using left foot braking. just because you're braking and shifting weight towards the front doesn't mean you have to decellerate
- 630
I mean in the game.Super Jamie
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
Well, actually, yes it does. Forward weight shift will ONLY occur IF you are deaccelerating.Super Jamie
People seem to misunderstand what left-foot braking does. It has two advantages only:
- It allows for less lag time between acceleration and deacceleration. Since theoretically in a race car you should always be accelerating to the best of your ability or deaccelerating to the best of your ability in order to minimize lap times, left foot braking means you can eliminate those tenths of a second between releasing the accelerator and applying the brakes. For some drivers, it helps; for others, it doesn't. I found in myself, and I've observed in others, that left-foot brakers tend to brake too early and too long.
- In a turbocharged car, it keeps load on the engine throughout the length of the turn when the engine would otherwise be operating with the throttle closed, allowing the turbine to spin down. Keeping the throttle open keeps the turbine spooling and reduces or eliminates boost lag at the exit.
Other than that, there's really no advantage to left-foot braking. Applying the throttle and the brakes at the same time is just the same as applying less throttle, as far as the tires are concerned. Net acceleration is net acceleration and it doesn't matter what sources of internal stress are applied to make that net acceleration at the wheels.
- 126
- GTP_FasterNFastr
neon_duke
I disagree with that statement, as far as i understand.. left foot braking while accelerating or maintaing the same speed and NOT shifting weight to the front wheels allows the driver to overload the rear wheels by causing them to slip slightly. This allows the car to rotate and because the front wheels no longer need to rotate the car they have mroe grip which can be used for accelerating.
Lev
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
I'm afraid your understanding is incorrect.
Unless you have a huge rear brake bias and the rear brakes are operating more like a handbrake when you press the pedal, you're never going to get the rear wheels to slip without transferring weight off of them (ie deaccelerating).
Also, the rear wheels can never cause the car to rotate; they can only react to the lateral steering forces generated by the front wheels. The force required to displace the front laterally is the same regardless of what the rear end is doing. It's just that setting the rear of the car up to oversteer helps the car rotate more quickly so that you don't have to slow down quite as much to negotiate a turn. Also, the faster the car rotates the sooner you can reduce steering input and thus the sooner you can put more power down... but I don't think that's really what you were saying.
Unless you have a huge rear brake bias and the rear brakes are operating more like a handbrake when you press the pedal, you're never going to get the rear wheels to slip without transferring weight off of them (ie deaccelerating).
Also, the rear wheels can never cause the car to rotate; they can only react to the lateral steering forces generated by the front wheels. The force required to displace the front laterally is the same regardless of what the rear end is doing. It's just that setting the rear of the car up to oversteer helps the car rotate more quickly so that you don't have to slow down quite as much to negotiate a turn. Also, the faster the car rotates the sooner you can reduce steering input and thus the sooner you can put more power down... but I don't think that's really what you were saying.
- 327
i also disagree with duke. if you're going fast, you brake into a corner no matter what. with right foot braking you lose alot of momentum, and decellerate through the rest of the corner. when you left foot brake you can keep the revs up in the engine, then you can accelerate away, with your foot still on the brake to finish off a tight corner if required, as you said - to the best of your ability. better than you could if you lifted off the accelerator completely
if you have access to an FF car and a stopwatch, try it out with a friend spotting you, i think you will have higher exit speed and complete a given turn quicker with left foot braking
if you have access to an FF car and a stopwatch, try it out with a friend spotting you, i think you will have higher exit speed and complete a given turn quicker with left foot braking
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
As I said, that's a driver preference - if you're better at left-foot braking, then do it. But it's not for a physical reason beyond the two I already described above. The laws of physics aren't changed by the internal stresses of the engine being pitted against the brakes. The only thing the car cares about is the net acceleration or deaccleration that reaches the wheels. Trust me on this. It's Newtonian physics.
If you're working the engine against the brakes, you could always just slow down less - unless you're trying to keep boost up as I mentioned. But revs are revs and the engine is not going to turn any faster than the wheels let it if you're holding it back by the brakes. You're not keeping the revs up by left-foot braking because there is a direct connection between wheel speed and engine speed unless you're slipping the clutch or it's an automatic transmission with a torque convertor.
If you're working the engine against the brakes, you could always just slow down less - unless you're trying to keep boost up as I mentioned. But revs are revs and the engine is not going to turn any faster than the wheels let it if you're holding it back by the brakes. You're not keeping the revs up by left-foot braking because there is a direct connection between wheel speed and engine speed unless you're slipping the clutch or it's an automatic transmission with a torque convertor.
- 327
technically you're right, but i don't think you can get the SAME weight shifting by braking and accelerating separately that you can as braking and accelerating at the same time. either because of the human driver or the liftoff between pedals or something else, i don't know
Super Jamie
Can I please point out the PHYSICAL IMPOSSIBILITY of this statement.
You cannot be both accelerating and decelerating at the same time. You are either one or the other, or you are maintaining a constant amount of DeltaV.
Now, you can apply both the brake and the accelerator at the same time, but you will only do one function or the other. Which one is determined by how much of each you give. If you give it more gas than brake, you will accelerate, however you will more slowly than if you didn't have your foor depressing the brake. And vise versa for the other way. But no matter what you are only actually doing one or the other.
Left foot braking is used for two reasons, like Duke said. One is to maintain the working level of your engine so when you release the brake, you accelerate RIGHT AWAY. You don't have to wait for the engine to react to your pedal input. The second is for breaking the rear of the car loose, in this case not REALLY loose because then you would put the car into a spin easily, but just a little in order to gain a better angle on your tiregrip and cornering. One of the ways to do this is to overload the rear tires.
As for overloading the rear tires. Left foot braking is used to overload the rear tires by first decelerating SLIGHTLY to shift weight forward and then releasing the brake (and since your engine has been TRYING to "let it rip" this entire time, it's not waiting for the revs to get into the powerband.....) and all that weight suddenly shifts to the rear. The sudden shift will sometimes break the rear loose.
Duke is right in this case.
I mean it, it sounds really retarded when I hear you all say you can slow down and speed up AT THE SAME TIME............please, stop flipping burgers, get a life, and go back to school.
best way to understand this.................
Get into a car. Apply the ebrake.............now, ease on the accelerator................you'll feel the car begine to push against the brake. Now, disengage the ebrake, you will begine to accelerate right away.
Now get into the car, do not use the ebrake, and try to hit the gas...........it will take a moment (however small) for the car to respond to your hitting the gas before the car actually takes off.......................
It's about response time. Would you like to go RIGHT NOW? or would you like to wait for 0.20 of a second? Would you like to wait that long EVERY time you release the brake and hit the gas? That adds up you know.............................
However. Duke is also right when he said that mose left-foot brakers tend to brake too early and too often.
Left foot braking may also be used in conjunction with an ebrake on a FF car. To slide a FF car and maintain the optimum angle for a corner, you really need that extra response that left foot braking can give. E brake is applied to the rear tires only and may be used to hold those tires at the edge or just slightly over their traction limits, thus allowing the rear to nudge out. Then, when you feel like you are about to slip beyond the optimum angle, you release the ebrake and appy the footbrake, allowing the wieght of the car to shift forward and allowing the rear tires to regain grip, enough to tbring the rear into line, then, before you begin to understeer again, you release the footbrake and the weight shifts back again, if needed, apply the ebrake to assist the rear tires to break traction................
All of this happens in split seconds and the response times must be VERY fast. Thus left foot braking is perfect, using it together with the ebrake means the car reacts faster and you can effectively control where your wieght is all the time, thus you control what tire or tires you wish to gain or lose traction.
Duke seems to be better at explainations than me, but I hope you understand, I know he does so maybe we will reword them better.
Get into a car. Apply the ebrake.............now, ease on the accelerator................you'll feel the car begine to push against the brake. Now, disengage the ebrake, you will begine to accelerate right away.
Now get into the car, do not use the ebrake, and try to hit the gas...........it will take a moment (however small) for the car to respond to your hitting the gas before the car actually takes off.......................
It's about response time. Would you like to go RIGHT NOW? or would you like to wait for 0.20 of a second? Would you like to wait that long EVERY time you release the brake and hit the gas? That adds up you know.............................
However. Duke is also right when he said that mose left-foot brakers tend to brake too early and too often.
Left foot braking may also be used in conjunction with an ebrake on a FF car. To slide a FF car and maintain the optimum angle for a corner, you really need that extra response that left foot braking can give. E brake is applied to the rear tires only and may be used to hold those tires at the edge or just slightly over their traction limits, thus allowing the rear to nudge out. Then, when you feel like you are about to slip beyond the optimum angle, you release the ebrake and appy the footbrake, allowing the wieght of the car to shift forward and allowing the rear tires to regain grip, enough to tbring the rear into line, then, before you begin to understeer again, you release the footbrake and the weight shifts back again, if needed, apply the ebrake to assist the rear tires to break traction................
All of this happens in split seconds and the response times must be VERY fast. Thus left foot braking is perfect, using it together with the ebrake means the car reacts faster and you can effectively control where your wieght is all the time, thus you control what tire or tires you wish to gain or lose traction.
Duke seems to be better at explainations than me, but I hope you understand, I know he does so maybe we will reword them better.
- 327
okay, i went for a drive tonight and figured it out, and i'll admit i was partially wrong from the start. LFB isn't about shifting of weight - that's inevitable with acceleration/deceleration - it's about MAINTAINING weight transfer where you want it as the sprung weight of the car settles down over the suspension
i can come into a corner, back off so i get liftoff oversteer whilst i decellerate and the weight of the car settles to the front so my steering tyres get better grip, get back on the gas and power understeer out of the corner - OR - i can come into the corner, left foot brake, NOT DECELLERATE, just proceed at a lesser rate of acceleration, have the weight shift to the front but hold it there with the brake WHILST STILL ACCELERATING then stop braking when i want and power understeer out of the corner. at no point in the turn does my speed drop below the entry speed, rather, the rate of acceleration just intentionally slows whilst turning
just to revise
right foot braking: accelerate straight, decellerate, turn, accelerate out
left foot braking: accelerate straight, slower acceleration through turn, accellerate out
now you tell me which one is the faster way of cornering
i do however agree that people who LFB do brake too early and too often. i hate sitting behind an auto driver whose brake lights flicker on and off like a christmas tree, it's not a habit i get into as it's a poor way to drive normally and has been known to cause accidents
i can come into a corner, back off so i get liftoff oversteer whilst i decellerate and the weight of the car settles to the front so my steering tyres get better grip, get back on the gas and power understeer out of the corner - OR - i can come into the corner, left foot brake, NOT DECELLERATE, just proceed at a lesser rate of acceleration, have the weight shift to the front but hold it there with the brake WHILST STILL ACCELERATING then stop braking when i want and power understeer out of the corner. at no point in the turn does my speed drop below the entry speed, rather, the rate of acceleration just intentionally slows whilst turning
just to revise
right foot braking: accelerate straight, decellerate, turn, accelerate out
left foot braking: accelerate straight, slower acceleration through turn, accellerate out
now you tell me which one is the faster way of cornering
i do however agree that people who LFB do brake too early and too often. i hate sitting behind an auto driver whose brake lights flicker on and off like a christmas tree, it's not a habit i get into as it's a poor way to drive normally and has been known to cause accidents
Super Jamieokay, i went for a drive tonight and figured it out, and i'll admit i was partially wrong from the start. LFB isn't about shifting of weight - that's inevitable with acceleration/deceleration - it's about MAINTAINING weight transfer where you want it as the sprung weight of the car settles down over the suspension
i can come into a corner, back off so i get liftoff oversteer whilst i decellerate and the weight of the car settles to the front so my steering tyres get better grip, get back on the gas and power understeer out of the corner - OR - i can come into the corner, left foot brake, NOT DECELLERATE, just proceed at a lesser rate of acceleration, have the weight shift to the front but hold it there with the brake WHILST STILL ACCELERATING then stop braking when i want and power understeer out of the corner. at no point in the turn does my speed drop below the entry speed, rather, the rate of acceleration just intentionally slows whilst turning
just to revise
right foot braking: accelerate straight, decellerate, turn, accelerate out
left foot braking: accelerate straight, slower acceleration through turn, accellerate out
now you tell me which one is the faster way of cornering
i do however agree that people who LFB do brake too early and too often. i hate sitting behind an auto driver whose brake lights flicker on and off like a christmas tree, it's not a habit i get into as it's a poor way to drive normally and has been known to cause accidents
Automatic's have a clutching system that disengages the accelorator when you let off the pedal...................it has nothing to do with left-foot braking.
And anyone who claims that they "figured it out" in one night.........doesn't really know. It's a very advanced technique and if you think you got it in one night then you don't actually grasp all of it.
- 24,344
- Midlantic Area
- GTP_Duke
I'm sorry, but you're still mistaken about the physics behind this. You will never transfer weight forward without deaccelerating. At best you can transfer slightly less weight back by reducing your rate of acceleration. If you're able to accelerate all the way through a turn without slowing (which I don't believe anyway) you could get the same net result by simply applying less throttle and no brakes at all. Perhaps you should do some research at websites dedicated to autocross techinique or race driving technique.Super Jamieokay, i went for a drive tonight and figured it out, and i'll admit i was partially wrong from the start. LFB isn't about shifting of weight - that's inevitable with acceleration/deceleration - it's about MAINTAINING weight transfer where you want it as the sprung weight of the car settles down over the suspension
i can come into a corner, back off so i get liftoff oversteer whilst i decellerate and the weight of the car settles to the front so my steering tyres get better grip, get back on the gas and power understeer out of the corner - OR - i can come into the corner, left foot brake, NOT DECELLERATE, just proceed at a lesser rate of acceleration, have the weight shift to the front but hold it there with the brake WHILST STILL ACCELERATING then stop braking when i want and power understeer out of the corner. at no point in the turn does my speed drop below the entry speed, rather, the rate of acceleration just intentionally slows whilst turning
just to revise
right foot braking: accelerate straight, decellerate, turn, accelerate out
left foot braking: accelerate straight, slower acceleration through turn, accellerate out
now you tell me which one is the faster way of cornering
i do however agree that people who LFB do brake too early and too often. i hate sitting behind an auto driver whose brake lights flicker on and off like a christmas tree, it's not a habit i get into as it's a poor way to drive normally and has been known to cause accidents
Two books I highly recommend you buy and read are Secrets of Solo Racing by Henry Watts and Sports Car and Competition Driving by Paul Frere.
- 327
less weight back. that would mean some shift forward, right? the weight doesn't just transfer to nowhere? anyway, if you don't believe me, there's nothing i can do about it. adios
- 1,373
Super Jamie
If less weight shifts back, more remains (it doesn't 'shift') forward to act on the front wheels, yes.
IMO, the most practical use of left-foot braking in on the entry of long, constant-radius corners (like on an oval track) with a fairly late acceleration point. LFB-ing would let you hold a bit more of your entry speed by scrubbing off just enough to stay on the track during the first part of the corner, and would avoid upsetting the car's balance when you lifted your foot from the accelerator. Does any of this sound reasonable?
- 327
very well said
