AI Damage

  • Thread starter amp88
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amp88

amp88

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As we all know, GT5's gonna include damage. What I'm worried about now is that if the AI isn't improved hugely. When B-Spec is used, it currently crashes the car on the straights, runs into the back of opponents and generally drives very poorly. If the car is crashing into barriers at 200mph at Le Mans, obviously a lot of damage is going to be caused. If this damage is caused by the terrible AI, are we still going to have to foot the bill to repair it?

In any real racing team there are obviously going to be accidents, but I can't think of too many racing drivers who crash on straights in dry conditions.

Also, the AI of the rival cars is, at the moment, fairly incompetent, often turning in on my nose when I'm attempting to overtake, and not getting out of my way when I try to lap them. If this isn't going to be improved, the damage is, again, going to be pretty high, I suspect.

Hopefully PD will work miracles with the AI and this won't be a problem, but we know their track record when it comes to AI...

What do you think?
 
oh, didnt know that.

well, if he's finally giving us damage, he should improve the AI as well. otherwise it would be a major Uh-oh
 
Hummm, I don't think they can improve the AI,..." from what i've seen so far".

After 4 gt games and all of the development that they have put into them
there is still bad AI and I don't think thats going to change any time soon.

When gt5 comes along we will see if PD is serious about the AI issue,
5 titles should be a good indication.
 
Well, the lack of AI improvement to date could be caused by the fact that all the GT games are running on basically the same engine. GT4 is little more than a highly upgraded and tweaked GT1. So a lot of things are the same. This is why things have been tweaked between titles, but very little has actually changed.

However, I think that's about to change. You cannot simply "port" your old game code to PS3. Well, technically, you can, but it won't run very well. PS1/PS2 code is designed around a single CPU. PS3 is designed around eight. Since Polyphony Digital is well-known for heavy optimization of their code (which is why their stuff looks so damn good compared to other folks'), they're not going to use their old code.. they're going to write a whole new game engine from scratch. Which is why we suddenly have things like damage. It stands to reason that the AI will see a drastic improvement, since it's no longer the same old AI, but something new.
 
Jedi2016
Well, the lack of AI improvement to date could be caused by the fact that all the GT games are running on basically the same engine. GT4 is little more than a highly upgraded and tweaked GT1. So a lot of things are the same. This is why things have been tweaked between titles, but very little has actually changed.

However, I think that's about to change. You cannot simply "port" your old game code to PS3. Well, technically, you can, but it won't run very well. PS1/PS2 code is designed around a single CPU. PS3 is designed around eight. Since Polyphony Digital is well-known for heavy optimization of their code (which is why their stuff looks so damn good compared to other folks'), they're not going to use their old code.. they're going to write a whole new game engine from scratch. Which is why we suddenly have things like damage. It stands to reason that the AI will see a drastic improvement, since it's no longer the same old AI, but something new.
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If what you say is correct and we all (Hope that it is) then thats very promising.

I'm a big believer in change, and the new ps3 may deliver what we want, it certainly will have the power.

A lot to look forward to 👍
 
The second-most discussed issue I've seen on GTPlanet about a GT game is AI (guess the most-discussed.). As far as this game goes, I know I normally say "Pro Race Driver" is the worst AI ever in a racing game. Do people read? Probably not. But a rare event happened one time I was racing in TOCA Race Driver 2- two drivers smashed into a wall on one of the fantasy street courses. I noticed that some cars stopped. I even rammed into the bastard that smacked the wall, causing me to restart the race. I'm not going to go into deep detail about AI because I usually get tired of talking about and seeing AI issues. What I do know is that if PD wants to make the next GT feature good damage modelling, it would have to feature AI which doesn't determines how one finishes. I already played a game which featured the worst AI and easy to get screwed up AI. What game is that? Read the second sentence.

I think the AI does need to have mistakes. Why? Because racing isn't perfect. If I can see a football team throw a football 15 yards past the line of scrimmage for a free safety to intercept the pass, I'm pretty sure one car can screw up on track and allow you to pass them for position. Maybe I want some of the AI to do "real racing," meaning the NASCAR way- bang into each other, both drivers' cars get screwed up all throughout. Anything to get a chance to overtake while other drivers are screwing up. If one of the drivers decide to screw up my car... I know dirty driving is wrong, but I'd ram my car into somebody else, slam his ass into a damned wall, take a penalty, and get back to winning races. As the saying goes, sometimes you have to cheat to win. Gran Turismo is take-no-prisoners racing. Even if a guy rams into me, I do want to see others on track pay for their crimes on track.

I'm not going to rate the next Gran Turismo as the best or the worst on AI. All I know is that it's been long-discussed, and I hope PD can do something to silence the critics on AI. AI, no matter how good, is never perfect. I'm not sucking up, I'm saying that PD will have to revise the AI, but they haven't caused me much trouble, so I don't discuss it a lot.
 
VIPERGTSR01
Unfortunatly that doesnt mean GT5 will actually have damage (remember KY saying D1 style competions will be in GT4 more than once?), we'll know when GT5 comes out.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to a point. KY did say that he would only implement damage if it could be modeled and implemented to be as close to realism as possible for the hardware--which we all know shouldn't be a problem. Whether or not PD will make this a program and begin working on something relatively new and FURTHER bring it up to his standard, only then will we see damage in GT.

However, I wouldn't be writing anything off just because he says they'll have it in GT5 though their track record for such promises is questionable. KY strives for nothing but the most realism in this series which is important to keep in mind when attempting to predict the series' outcome and products.
 
Been thinking about this long and hard now and i cant see damage being implemented into GT5 for the simple fact that unless they are prepared to damage at least one of every car in the game. Sure they can use a car to model the main physics of a crash and all but how would the accuarately model each cars damage, For instance Aston Martin will be in the game and PD are going to purchase a few of these just to crash them into walls? The amount of detail which would have to be used would be phenominal. Each car would have to be modeled with and without bodywork incase a door,bonnet or wing (not the ones you get on the rear of a car). Without doing this i dont see how each car can resemble its real life counterpart and well all know how fussy KY is about realism!! If any damage will be included i can only see it being engine damage or at the most chassis damage ie wheels breaking or suspension, such as track rods, wishbones, wheel bearings etc etc

:)
 
Err, you don't need to physically smash up one of every car to know how damage should be, since every crash is sdifferen you'd need to damage every car in every different way by your theory. Kaz has already said, damage will play a large part in the next GT, all you need is a good engine that can calculate materials and calculations of how each material should break and bend ect and a model engine that can handle deforming models. No company will actually buy cars and crash them to see how they deform, it's not needed, PD have never bought any cars to test for any GT game, they don't even test a lot of them like many of the race cars and cars like the Speed 12. Kas has never come close to being able to test the Speed 12, he let the game engine work out the cars performance, he'd do the same with damage. Look at RD3, the damamge in that looks superb, but they arn't crashing cars irl to get it right. And no you woul;dn't need to model several versions of each car, you model the whole car, the engine, chassis, interior, body ect and you model the parts seperately. Add that to the deformation engine and material physics and you have a fully destructable car. It's not out of this world to do believe me. And yeah, Kaz is such a realism freak he allows cars to bounce off each other and he gives every car a level of un-toggleable traction control.
 
live4speed
Err, you don't need to physically smash up one of every car to know how damage should be, since every crash is sdifferen you'd need to damage every car in every different way by your theory. Kaz has already said, damage will play a large part in the next GT, all you need is a good engine that can calculate materials and calculations of how each material should break and bend ect and a model engine that can handle deforming models. No company will actually buy cars and crash them to see how they deform, it's not needed, PD have never bought any cars to test for any GT game, they don't even test a lot of them like many of the race cars and cars like the Speed 12. Kas has never come close to being able to test the Speed 12, he let the game engine work out the cars performance, he'd do the same with damage. Look at RD3, the damamge in that looks superb, but they arn't crashing cars irl to get it right. And no you woul;dn't need to model several versions of each car, you model the whole car, the engine, chassis, interior, body ect and you model the parts seperately. Add that to the deformation engine and material physics and you have a fully destructable car. It's not out of this world to do believe me. And yeah, Kaz is such a realism freak he allows cars to bounce off each other and he gives every car a level of un-toggleable traction control.
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I stand corrected!! I guess i phrased my post wrong then, I should have said that i didnt see how it could happen (then gave my theory) and could somebody elaborate on if it can be done or not,

Thanks :)
 
It's possible now to create a polgon model with sperate parts, so you'd model the car but all the parts would be modwelled sperately but just attached, so the dors, mirrors, bonnet ect would all be modelled and then attached the cars chasssis. Like actually building a car irl but out of polygon parts if you like. You can also use a materials engine to give each part properties ofdifferent materials, so you could give the chassis the same properties as carbon fiber, the body could be fibreglass ect. Then if you have a polygon deformation model you can use the physicsengine to work out how thoes parts would bend, buckle and twist with each impact. Do that right and you've got one hell of a damage model. It's not easy but it's very possible in the gaming world, Codemasters are very good at this kind of modelling. Gone are the days when you're car got damaged and the damaged part was simply replaced with a generic mangled part.
 
live4speed
It's possible now to create a polgon model with sperate parts, so you'd model the car but all the parts would be modwelled sperately but just attached, so the dors, mirrors, bonnet ect would all be modelled and then attached the cars chasssis. Like actually building a car irl but out of polygon parts if you like. You can also use a materials engine to give each part properties ofdifferent materials, so you could give the chassis the same properties as carbon fiber, the body could be fibreglass ect. Then if you have a polygon deformation model you can use the physicsengine to work out how thoes parts would bend, buckle and twist with each impact. Do that right and you've got one hell of a damage model. It's not easy but it's very possible in the gaming world, Codemasters are very good at this kind of modelling. Gone are the days when you're car got damaged and the damaged part was simply replaced with a generic mangled part.
Click to expand...


Now i get ya! thanks and yes ur right i was worried about the damaged parts being replaced simply with generic parts with a couple of dents and such on it.
 
I agree that the "visual effects" of damage would be very cool, but frankly they are probably to expensive from a processor perspective. A simple but effective compromise would be to have a "damage bar" and have the car degrade in performance as it gets more damaged. This could easily replace the thoroughly hated 5-second penalty.

But what would be key is to make damage/penalty apply to BOTH player and competing AI players, with perhaps a bit more damage given to the vehicle that "caused" the accident. That way if the AI is too stupid and rams you into a wall, well... he gets as much or more damage from the action, and the race still remains fair and a real test of skill for the human driver, not just a question of how good he is at avoiding being rear-ended.

Of course, if they also fixed the AI's driving algorithm some, in particular its collision avoidance portion, it would be great. And finally, since no matter what they do they won't get it right... maybe the PS3 will allow "online updates" of the game... so that they can fix the bad choices that they will certainly make trying to get this one right.
 
No, thats just a cop out, Codemasters have been pushing the boundaries on visual damage year on year, to say the PS3 can't handle it is an utter ****e excuse. I can understand in GT4's case running the PS2, but theres no awy I would accept that excuse for GT5 on the PS3.
 
Yes, it is a cop-out, and so was the 5-second penalty as delivered in GT4 and so is the lack of internet play when they already did 99% of the work in the LAN multiplayer option. But cop-outs are part of life in software development, so I'm not surprised they did it and they will probably continue doing it.

I'd love "damage graphics" in GT5, so long as they ALSO fix the other problems from the current damage cop-out. They interfere with playability. In the "Real Driving Simulator" I expect realistic driving conditions - including realistic behavior from the other cars.
 
I agree.

If GT5 at the very least doesnt have online play, improved A.I. and Damage I for one will not touch it. When Forza managed to pull it off on a current system very well, if PD doesn't have it on a next gen game I will be of the belief that PD are not all as proud of the game as we think and are obviously happy to let the name sell the game.

To say that the PS3 isnt capable of these things (if they do) is a total cop-out.

I would rather implement these features than push the limits in the graphics department. I want to PLAY a SIM, not watch a racing game. And more if the systems resources should be devoted to gameplay aspects than graphics.
 

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