To GT or, not to GT. That's the question!

  • Thread starter Tyre King
  • 32 comments
  • 1,828 views

Arcade mode/Gt-mode split in the WRS

  • Total voters
    34
  • Poll closed .
Tyre King

Tyre King

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Ballstothewall1
Well,
I suggested a poll about this subject a while ago, and now that .duck has joined the ranks of the great unwashed WRS it seems that the time is right!

For those not in the know, Duck has a massive database of really good setups for use in GT mode, HERE . And as such would be a valuable resource for those who either don't have a clue about setups or those of us who find it hard to find a good basic setup from which to start tweaking to their liking.

I know this debate has been around on other threads, and opinions are divided, but I think it would be interesting to find a concensus of opinion now that ducks skills will be easily available to those that want to utilise them.
Also Duck can and does provide specifically requested setups, for any car/track combo, so if you race in another series he can help there too. 👍

So please vote, and maybe your choices will be different now that Duck's about! :)
And also, comments are more than welcome.

Neil
 
I want as much GT mode as I can get without severely reducing entrants. GT is all about GT and I tend to do better as well, so I'm being selfish...

Besides, like it's been said before, most times a fast guy will post their setup by Wednesday or Thursday so it's not that big a deal right?

Bring on more GT!

-SHig
 
I voted that I would use .Duck.'s setups, but didn't vote on the GT / Arcade proportion : I'll be taking the results of the vote into account but I don't want to affect this result.

And this is the good place and moment to tell you how Duck joined us.
Many of us said last week that they were definitely in favor of more GT races, but they are not good tuners, so the problem is that almost everybody would be waiting for someone to post a set-up and then start to customize it.
I PMed Duck yesterday or the day before, to ask him if it was OK that I link to his settings database to propose a default setup when posting a GT Mode race.
Not only was he OK, but as he answered, my PM was the final push who made it submit his registration time.
 
i'm with shiggy... GT-mode is *the* game.
arcade mode on anything but a smooth track with a race car is usually nothing but frustration for me.
 
Okay, now that I've said more GT mode, I think another way to shake things up is more license tests like the Bentley at La Sarthe. That was a fun week! Sure, the ASM/TCS is a bit overbearing, but it's a good way for me to collect golds while still WRSin'.

-SHig
 
more gt mode, gran turismo is all about simulation...

arcade = need for speed
simulation = gran turismo

that was always the way i had my racing games, don´t know if others agree...
 
i dont agree

if you guys are all talking about simulation

why not do races with N tyres.... enough said

GT mode + Street Car + R5's = ARCADE
 
Yeah, exactly right. It's not like Arcade mode is easier then GT Mode, or more 'arcadey'. It's exactly the same as GT Mode, except everybody has the EXACT same car, so it's more fair for everyone. It also stops the 'I don't know how to set-up a car, so I'm sitting out this race, blah, blah, blah, where is my nappy' that you sometimes hear (Mainly from me).

It's called weekly race series, not Weekly 'spend-half-your-time-moving-a-random-slider-across-one-degree' Series. I understand that people for some reason do enjoy that, but looking at the turnout for these GT races, a lot don't.

I totally argee with the 'More N-Tyres' opinion too. That FPV week was really fun and competitive. Last week was a good example of a car that really didn't have enough grip considering how much power it had, however, it was one of the best weeks I've raced.

SHigSpeed
Besides, like it's been said before, most times a fast guy will post their setup by Wednesday or Thursday so it's not that big a deal right?
Click to expand...

EXACTLY! So with half the field driving around in the same set-up, why not just do arcade mode, then we won't have half the field driving around with a set-up that doesn't suit their style. How would everyone else in F1 go if they went with Alonso's set-up every race? Yes, I know they are in different cars, but you get the point.
 
Casio
EXACTLY! So with half the field driving around in the same set-up, why not just do arcade mode, then we won't have half the field driving around with a set-up that doesn't suit their style.
Click to expand...

What if the car has a crappy setup in arcade mode? Then everyone has to deal with it. A good setup will usually work for most people, but there's no telling how an arcade setup will treat you.

Casio
It also stops the 'I don't know how to set-up a car, so I'm sitting out this race, blah, blah, blah, where is my nappy' that you sometimes hear (Mainly from me).
Click to expand...

I think this really is a poor excuse not to do a race, there's hundreds of people here more than willing to lend tips and give help with setups, all anyone has to do it ask. And if you really don't want to setup the car you can always use someone elses as a starting point.
 
hOt6o4bOi
i dont agree

if you guys are all talking about simulation

why not do races with N tyres.... enough said

GT mode + Street Car + R5's = ARCADE
Click to expand...

👍 And add to that the fact that while in arcade mode everyone has the same exact car, which provides a level playing field. But I will say GT Mode is what the franchise is all about. I think the wrs is fine where its at with the split between arcade and gt mode, I wouldn't exactly have a 'fit if it was more like 60/40 as there is much to be learned in car settings. And it would be cool to do more races in those ****ty tires too. Now THAT'S tough

jump_ace
 
icemanshooter23
What if the car has a crappy setup in arcade mode? Then everyone has to deal with it. A good setup will usually work for most people, but there's no telling how an arcade setup will treat you.
Click to expand...

That's right, everyone has to deal with it. What's wrong with that? A lot of people couldn't handle the Pagani last week, but it was the same Pagani for everyone. I'm not one eyed, I do see that if it was in arcade mode, you could probably tune out some of the problems people were having, but where is the fun in that? In arcade mode, if you win or lose, at least you know that you did a faster/slower time in the exact same machine as everyone.

icemanshooter23
I think this really is a poor excuse not to do a race, there's hundreds of people here more than willing to lend tips and give help with setups, all anyone has to do it ask. And if you really don't want to setup the car you can always use someone elses as a starting point.
Click to expand...

I wasn't talking about myself, this week will be my 30th straight submission or something. However, all I'm saying is look at the turnout in GT-Mode races vs Arcade. The last 'GT' week we had 18 submissions; out of 370 something registered drivers. Last Arcade - 25. Not much more, but it's more. Week 35 (GT) - 34. Week 34 (Arcade) - 42.

I know people fall away with every race, but maybe it's that they feel threatened by GT Mode?
 
(voted that I wouldn't use duck's setups since I just want to be honest)

The real point for my reply here...

GT vs Arc

Regarding the last GT race, don't forget the race was using NOS in a car that not everyone loves (not to mention a track that doesn't get stand-out credit like the Ring or El Capitan).

Also, don't forget that each week is different in the real world and from time to time people just can't submit for one reason or another.

Taking all those points into consideration, I think the difference in submissions for GT mode and Arc mode is dependant on factors other than the Mode of game play.

Personally, I love GT mode just as much as Arc (if not more).
The main reason I say that is because I love street cars with racing tires and downforce. :dopey:
At the same time though, I love the simplicity of racing Race Cars in arc mode.

Still though, I can't deny that GT mode is where I spend most of my "personal enjoyment time."
Fact is, I can't remember the last time I saw an Arcade race that enticed me enough to ghost it. However, at this very moment I am running a GT Ring-race where I will not "participate" for personal reasons but I'm still racing my tail off to enjoy it (and ghosting my way to the top of the results might I add :sly: ).

Why?
GT mode and a fully customized suspension that I'm barely adjusting. :D

So what's my point in this post? :lol:
Both GT mode and Arcade mode have a place in GT4.

In a "perfect" racing series the balance between GT and Arc modes would be 50/50.
The thing is, in actuality organizing a GT mode race is not as easy as it seems.

From the Mod's position you have to consider several factors like the prize car or cost of a new car, the cost of parts, the limitations on verification, finding a suitable race, etc etc...

Plain and simple, organizing GT mode races is more difficult for the mod and participating in GT mode races is more costly and time consuming for the racer.

With that said, I ask that you all try to be understanding of Flat-out's situation.

I am sure he does his best to balance our races and in the end, simply posting "please give us a GT mode race" in the suggestions thread is all you need to get the job done. 👍

Edit:
Btw, I don't think it's a good idea to use pre-made setups.
Individual drivers need individual setups.
Likewise, individual tracks need individual setups.
(I also feel like "tuning style" makes a difference since some of us like to create over/understeer using shocks and springs while others would rather use ride height and toe)

:P
 
Kent
Btw, I don't think it's a good idea to use pre-made setups.
Individual drivers need individual setups.
Likewise, individual tracks need individual setups.
(I also feel like "tuning style" makes a difference since some of us like to create over/understeer using shocks and springs while others would rather use ride height and toe)
Click to expand...

Well I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to tuning and it's an automatic handicap for me, with some effort I can usually still pull something together that is acceptable but I like it when everyone has to do the same thing with the exact same car, we're all on an even playing field. The variety comes by Cyril creating different types of events each week. Don't get me wrong, I'll still compete in a GT event when it comes up but I feel on the back foot every time. Maybe I'm the only one, it looks like it from the voting.
 
jump_ace
👍 And add to that the fact that while in arcade mode everyone has the same exact car, which provides a level playing field ....
Click to expand...
Not if there's a choice of cars like week 37. Which makes me think it's a bit pointless giving a choice of cars in arcade mode, because one is bound to be better than the other and without the ability to adjust the settings there is no scope for improving the lesser car. So, IMO it's better to save choice of cars for GT mode beacause then the settings come into play. Week 35 is proof of this working better.

MisterWeary
Well I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to tuning and it's an automatic handicap for me
Click to expand...
For every person who thinks GT mode is a handicap there's another that thinks the same of arcade mode (me for one). I'm aware we're all dealing with the same problems in arcade mode but some people can adapt to this better than others, so isn't that giving them an advantage? And if your answer to that is i should just learn to adapt, then i could quite easily turn around and say why don't you learn to use the settings in GT mode?
 
It's nice to see how you're all concerned 👍
The question is not about making the WRS GT mode only, or Arcade more only, but to see what the proportions should look like. Seeing the current results, I'll try to use a 50/50 proportion in the weeks to come rather than 67/33 as I've been doing since week 30 (6 arcade and 3 GT races).

The fact is that there are more submissions for arcade races than for GT races. 162 on the first 5 arcade races, (average = 32 submissions per race) ; 77 on the 3 GT races (average = 26). That's for the races I posted only.
On the whole GT4 WRS (37 races), the averages are 50 submissions per arcade race and 39 per GT race.
This is easily explained by the fact that arcade races require no extra time from the racers. It's like when you're alone at home and you have to choose between cooking yourself and going at McDonald's (or in some other restaurant).

The problem of GT races is that many things cannot be verified.
I could post a race where weight reduction would be forbidden, but there would be no way to check in the replay what the weight of the car is (which was possible in GT3 thanks to MK's garage editor).
Of course we trust each other and we know that everybody would follow the rules, but what if someone runs a much faster time than usual ?
Wouldn't we all suspect that he cheated ? And the sad thing is that we wouldn't be able to prove he cheated, and he wouldn't be able to prove he didn't.

The only things that can be checked are :
  • the car
  • the track
  • the tyre choice
  • the total power
  • the cleanness

So there is no point in forbidding parts that don't affect the car's power.

Ok, the situation is not that bad, and that leaves many fun and challenging combos as the one we will be racing next week :)
 
Gran Turismo has always been about the GT mode, not about the arcade mode. Arcade mode was only added to make sure that people that like Need for Speed will buy the game too. Although some cars are really fun to drive in arcade mode, 95% just handles crap. GT mode offers the possibility to setup the car to your liking.

I like my cars on the edge and I want to get feedback while I'm driving, but with arcade cars that's simply impossible. All they do is understeer. I just don't like it when I need to adapt to a car that doesn't suit my driving style.

Also, WRS shouldn't be about a level playing field. In reality this is impossible anyway. Driver A has 10 hours to spend a week and driver B only 1.5, so you can never speak of a level playing field. In real life, only beginner racing series have a level playing field. After that, settings become really important too. Now I think of it, a race in a Yaris/Vitz or Clio with a fixed setup could make for a nice race. With a sports suspension a car already drives a lot better than the arcade version, and both GT mode supporters and people who prefer a 'level' playing field get a piece of the cake.

A good racing driver knows which lines to drive, but also how to setup a car to his liking to make him able to go faster. Therefore I think the majority of races should be in GT mode. If people post their setups, there's always a setup that suits the driver who is afraid of setting up his car. One thing we have to avoid though, like Hotboi stated, is putting racing tyres on street cars. Then we go back to arcade style

With more GT mode races, I'll be joining the races a lot more. Most of the times I give the combo's a short go, but with the little time I have to play I often focus on other challenges/combo's that I like more.
 
Lots of great discussion going on here, and a lot of valid points being made. 👍
And I'll appologise now for the long post following! :)

Most (by the voting so far,anyway) think that more GT mode racing would be a good idea.
'Gt is all about GT', 'Gt mode is "the" game', 'more GT mode is the way to go for me!', 'more gt mode, gran turismo is all about simulation...', etc,etc!

Some think that Arcade mode is 'the bomb' as it gives a 'level playing field'

Some say that they don't know enough about tuning (within the game) to come up with a basic workable setup that they can tweak, quickly.
'Well I don't know what I'm doing when it comes to tuning and it's an automatic handicap for me' as an example from weary.

Kent makes a very good point about the time it takes for Cyril to come up with a GT mode race. And I agree. 👍

But let me give my point of view,

As far as the 'level playing field' of arcade mode goes, not all 'level playing field's' are level! Now bofore you start saying 'Neil's gone off the deep end here, of course a level playing field is level, that's what it means!' let me expand on my thinking!

I agree to a certain point that, yes, the car is the same and the track is the same. BUT each individual driver's driving style will not be the same.

Some will be corner-speed freaks, some will be demon late braker's, some will feather the throttle out of the corner, others will nail it out of a corner, some will hit the 'perfect' racing apex, other's will prefer later or earlier apex's, some will learn a track by talking themselves round the track including when to change gear ( I have a mate who does this when we are racing together, and it is most annoying/distracting), others will learn the track by shear repetition, and then there's guys like me who go off visual clues, linking sections together by almost subliminal clues around the track (I don't blink a lot when racing, lol)

And for the most part, the style/method each driver uses is ingrained, instinctive, and very difficult to change.

Therefore not level, we are individuals and very different to each other.

Gt mode allows us to level the un-level playing field, setting the cars up to suit our own individual style of driving.

Now as far as 'half the field using the same setup, so why not do arcade mode' argument (refering back to 'one of the fast boy's will post his setup on wed/thurs' - paraphrasing both.

One of the reasons for posting this thread/poll was to let everyone know about .Duck's setups and therefore give everyone (if they choose to use them) a 'level playing field' to start tweaking the car setup to their own driving style without having to start from scratch.

To say it's not a 'spend-half-your-time-moving-a-random-slider-across-one-degree' race series and to ask 'Where's the fun in that?' is short-sighted not 'one-eyed'

The fun is to get a badly handling car to handle,
to turn a pig into a racehorse,
and the big buzz is to then put in a fast time with that pig after you have made it handle to suit yourself!

Obviously I am in favour of more GT mode races, otherwise I probably wouldn't have started this discussion/poll, but I also agree that arcade mode has a big part to play in the WRS!

So as Kent says, something nearer to 50/50 would be better IMO, maybe as Jump says a 60/40 split would be ok!

Again sorry for the long post, and please no-one take offence as none is meant, and most of the quotes/excerpts are paraphrased not actual quotes ( just to stop this taking up a massive amount of screen space and becoming disjointed really.

:D
Neil
 
Just wanted to mention a few things... :D

I disagree with hugo boss.
Arcade mode cars are not understeer machines for 90% of the time.
As examples, I give the names of my favorite cars... The Amuse R1, the McLaren F1, and the Audi R8.
All of those handle really well and no, they are not the exceptions to the rule, they are just a few of the cars I know to handle well (there are many, many others).

Plus, I believe arcade mode was not included for the NFS fans. Oh no.
Rather, it was included (and expanded this time around) for the sake of an Online mode that never made it into the final product.

To be honest, I said the exact things that many of you are saying about Arcade mode over a year ago when it came to GT3. :sly:
I eventually changed though and respected both modes of game play... That's how I feel with GT4.

Both game play modes are good and both have positive and negative attributes.

Now regarding the idea of settings and what Mister Weary quoted...

Just my little bit of advice here, but if you don't know what you are doing, start by not doing anything. ;)

What I mean by that is, the stock settings are a great place to start your racing.
After that, try to learn from your fellow WRS racers and eventually you will be a setup master. 👍

Also, to clear it up... I wasn't taking a shot at duck or anything when I made my last reply.
I was simply explaining how I feel and that holds especially true with the "tuning style" comment.
After looking at several of ducks setups I noticed that all the setups I saw were very, very similar and all of them used elements of tuning I rarely use, such as ride height differences of 10mm and more (and on every one it was a taller rear end).
The same goes for Toe in his setups... there were just so many with -1 toe in the rear I was suprised. That also goes for his shock settings as well, almost every last setup I saw of his was high on the rebound with nothing on the bound.

Anyway, to get to the real point of all that...

If you don't know about adjusting a car's settings, do not just copy and paste someone else pre-made settings.

Instead, start with stock and learn from the active racers here. 👍

I hate to say it, but I think that you can over-tune a car just as easily as under-tuning.

Remember, stock settings are not always a bad thing. 👍

Plus, :lol:
If you all remember the S2000LM at cote, when we did that race there was a great deal of discussion regarding settings.
In the end we found out that many of us were using totally different setups and still getting very similar times.

Makes me wonder if settings make all that much of a difference when they aren't greatly perverted.
(of course I know they make a difference, but how much and for good or bad all depends on what you do with the settings and whether or not you know what you are doing with them) :P
 
IMO, the real and proper simulation would be to drive every car in stock form. No +20% power increase, no 10% weight decrease. If a car comes with S2 tires when you buy it, then so be it, S2 tires it is. If a car has no TCS, then there should be no TCS allowed. If a car is automatic only, then the manual transmission shouldn't be allowed... and so on. It's to be as realistic as possible to the real life specs of a car. So whether it's GT or Arcade mode, it doesn't make much of a difference, except for cars that already have some settings that can be adjusted in stock form.

I'm sure that the cars that have been tested for GT4 were all stock. So when we start adding better suspensions, or increasing horsepower, we are getting further and further from reality into something totally fake, because it hasn't been tested in real life. It's just PD trying their best to assume what would happen to the car if whatever is added, and in many cases, they fail miserably.
 
T13R
IMO, the real and proper simulation would be to drive every car in stock form. No +20% power increase, no 10% weight decrease. If a car comes with S2 tires when you buy it, then so be it, S2 tires it is. If a car has no TCS, then there should be no TCS allowed. If a car is automatic only, then the manual transmission shouldn't be allowed... and so on. It's to be as realistic as possible to the real life specs of a car. So whether it's GT or Arcade mode, it doesn't make much of a difference, except for cars that already have some settings that can be adjusted in stock form.

I'm sure that the cars that have been tested for GT4 were all stock. So when we start adding better suspensions, or increasing horsepower, we are getting further and further from reality into something totally fake, because it hasn't been tested in real life. It's just PD trying their best to assume what would happen to the car if whatever is added, and in many cases, they fail miserably.
Click to expand...


Hhmmm.. very good point Fabio, I never made that connection but u might be on to something there. Now I need to go back thru some cars and try them stock (gt mode) and then feel the difference 'pimped out' as I call it.

jump_ace
 
I voted, More GT Mode, Duck's settings would be usefull, and that I wouldn't use his settings... :)
 
Tip of the day :
I'm busy re-shuffling my planned races, so that we will have a 50% GT and 50% Arcade split over the january/february period.
We'll see at that time what we should do for the next months.
 
flat-out
Tip of the day :
I'm busy re-shuffling my planned races, so that we will have a 50% GT and 50% Arcade split over the january/february period.
We'll see at that time what we should do for the next months.
Click to expand...

Brilliant! 👍

And the poll results so far bare out that decision too!

60% want More GT mode
24% want a Status Quo
16% want less GT mode

Taken from 25 votes for those options

61.5% Would find Ducks setups useful
38.5% wouldn't

But the poll hasn't closed yet and will still run till the 5th!

Now I can't decide whether to do some racing, or to start celebrating both New Year and my birthday early. (even though it is my 38th :indiff: I know, old-git alert! :D )

💡

Do Both! :cheers:

Neil
 
Whilst GT-Mode was/is considered the main part of the game and IMO important to learn, I do however believe by having too much GT-Mode within the WRS will have the opposite effect in terms of maintaining long term interest overall.

If it is decided to increase the number of GT-Mode events I'm sure it won't take too long before the numbers of participants to fall to a low level. I'm sure it would be just dandy for all the diehards, but for those who wish to just 'get in and drive' and not forgetting those who's time is limited, you will find them sitting on the side lines waiting for something better to come along.

In any case, for me GT-Mode in GT4 is nothing compared to earlier versions of the game and sucks big time.

Just my opinion
 
Sphinx
Whilst GT-Mode was/is considered the main part of the game and IMO important to learn, I do however believe by having too much GT-Mode within the WRS will have the opposite effect in terms of maintaining long term interest overall.

If it is decided to increase the number of GT-Mode events I'm sure it won't take too long before the numbers of participants to fall to a low level. I'm sure it would be just dandy for all the diehards, but for those who wish to just 'get in and drive' and not forgetting those who's time is limited, you will find them sitting on the side lines waiting for something better to come along.

In any case, for me GT-Mode in GT4 is nothing compared to earlier versions of the game and sucks big time.

Just my opinion
Click to expand...


I gotta say there are some good points in that. Looking at who voted in this thread, 4 of the 16 who asked for more GT mode...never or barely race??? Why would a race that requires more effort be more appealing? For the person who wants to rock up and race, an arcade race is ideal.

Having said that, I am one of the diehards who will be racing regardless and despite a preference for a 70/30 split...I've found this week really fun so you'll continue to see my name in the results every week (at least until GT Vision and the PS3 come out) I just wanna see more people competing and I think Sphinx hit the nail on the head
 
MisterWeary
I just wanna see more people competing and I think Sphinx hit the nail on the head
Click to expand...

That's exactly right. What would all of you prefer 20 people racing in GT-Mode or 50 in Arcade?

But in all honesty, and as much I detest GT-Mode, GT4 has been out (At least here) for near on 9 months, there really isn't going to be much more people coming in to this, it's really turning into a series where the same 10-15 guys go everyweek and try to beat each others time, and a few more guys pop in occasionally. I find this really fun and enjoyable. So if it's GT-Mode or not, it doesn't really matter to alot of us. (Except I'm better at Arcade, so lets have that :sly:)
 
Well the poll has now closed and the results are...

Of the 31 guys who voted in options 1,2,3

32.26% wanted to keep things the way the are

51.61% wanted to have more GT Mode

16.13% wanted less GT Mode

so now it's over to Cyril to do what he does best, and decide how to shape things to come!

Thanks to all who voted, even though there was only a fraction of the 370-odd registered drivers who did so.

Laters Dudes

Neil
 
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