American vs. Euro/Japanese cars - from GT4 board

vectradriver
There wasn't enough influential European used cars though. As for the American cars, well without being confrontational, the abilities of US cars are far behind EU and Nippon vehicles. Hence fewer to choose from that are worthy of being raced.
Duke
Spoken like a true tuner fanboy who's never sat behind an actual steering wheel in his life. Kindly learn something of what you're talking about before spouting further drivel like this.
Excuse me Duke, I'm neither a fan of Tuning or a non-driver. If you read any European magazine test of a majority of US cars, they are severely lacking in handling capabilities offered by direct EU rivals. I know how successful the C5 and C6R have been and still are, but the vast majority of American cars do not deserve to be included, hence the lack of American cars in-game. The closed view of America being able to produce mainstream cars on a par with Eu vehicles is poorly held. Please do a bit of further research before you see what I am saying as personal-bias. It is from what I have been reading my whole life. Me and this forum are finished. Good bye all.
 
vectradriver
Excuse me Duke, I'm neither a fan of Tuning or a non-driver. If you read any European magazine test of a majority of US cars, they are severely lacking in handling capabilities offered by direct EU rivals. I know how successful the C5 and C6R have been and still are, but the vast majority of American cars do not deserve to be included, hence the lack of American cars in-game. The closed view of America being able to produce mainstream cars on a par with Eu vehicles is poorly held. Please do a bit of further research before you see what I am saying as personal-bias. It is from what I have been reading my whole life.
I rest my case.
Me and this forum are finished. Good bye all.
Well, if you're that unable to open your mind, see you later.

Note that I did not say that American cars are by definition better than Japanese or EU cars - but I will directly challenge anyone who insists "the vast majority" of American cars are "severely lacking" in capabilities.

All countries produce some great cars. All countries produce some total crap cars. The vast majority of cars from any country are, in fact, quite average. Anybody who thinks otherwise is a fool.
 
Actually stuff it, I can't be bothered with this argument. If America ever makes a car that beats an M3, I'll eat my hat. Till then, you can enjoy your fast, poor handling saloons.
 
vectradriver
Actually stuff it, I can't be bothered with this argument. If America ever makes a car that beats an M3, I'll eat my hat. Till then, you can enjoy your fast, poor handling saloons.

Another Brit letting the side down 👎
 
But Cracker, he insulted my intelligence. What I look for in a car is rarely found in American mainstream cars. Steering Feel, agility and adjustability are what I want from a car. I don't care for front-heavy saloon cars with mega power and chassis unable to cope with the power. If I did, I'd drive a Vectra VXR.

My earlier reply was based on my own opinion of the Cadillac SRX (great engine and pace, but poor quality) and from what I've read in magazines. I didn't intend for there to be an argument from what I orignally posted. There are fewer American mainstream cars that are good enough to be in a racing game. There were many great European cars they didn't put in, instead plumping for utter rot like the Citroen C5 and C3. However I stand by my original statement, America has made less great cars (on a global level) to put in a game.
 
vectradriver
Actually stuff it, I can't be bothered with this argument. If America ever makes a car that beats an M3, I'll eat my hat. Till then, you can enjoy your fast, poor handling saloons.
Pram >>>>>>> toys.
vectradriver
But Cracker, he insulted my intelligence. What I look for in a car is rarely found in American mainstream cars. Steering Feel, agility and adjustability are what I want from a car. I don't care for front-heavy saloon cars with mega power and chassis unable to cope with the power. If I did, I'd drive a Vectra VXR.
So, of course, since America doesn't make a car as good as the M3, all American cars are severely lacking in capabilities. Right.
 
vectradriver
Actually stuff it, I can't be bothered with this argument. If America ever makes a car that beats an M3, I'll eat my hat. Till then, you can enjoy your fast, poor handling saloons.

America does, it's called the C6 Chevrolet Corvette Z06.
 
Excuse me, that car is several rungs up the ladder from an M3. I mean small performance cars. The Z06 is fine in isolation, but against European cars, still several years behind. The reason why I state the M3, is because it won every road-test I read, even the last one published at the end of its life-cycle.
 
Let's put an end to this eh?

Everyone has their own opinions and their own preferences, no one has a right to argue or change them except for that person. Some like american cars over EU cars, some like it vice versa. That's life, get over it, sit down and stop arguing...geez
 
Some quotes from Autocar, the world's oldest car magazine...

Corvette C6: "The best 'Vette yet to drive, and build quality is much improved, but still no 911."

CTS 3.6: " A novel alternative to BMW's and Merc's, but the novelty wears off, leaving you with a car that is little more than average."

In fairness there are very few American cars listed in the road-test section, mainly because we don't get many of them. Still, those quotes show that even those cars, designed to rival the best Europe has to offer (the 911 and the 5 Series) lack what it takes. Now how is a family-sedan, built to a price going to be able to handle well enough to make it around the 'Ring?
 
vectradriver
Excuse me, that car is several rungs up the ladder from an M3. I mean small performance cars. The Z06 is fine in isolation, but against European cars, still several years behind. The reason why I state the M3, is because it won every road-test I read, even the last one published at the end of its life-cycle.
Sorry, it will end here.
Shelby Mustang GT500. The M3 is no where near a small car, you go by car size, it's 'Mid-Size' as is the Mustang. Plus, the Mustang only costs $45,000, while the M3 is in the $60K territory.

Hell, if you wanted to add in the Cadillac CTS-V, that will do it too.

ARGUMENT OVAAAAAA!
 
Grow up. The M3 is based on a compact-executive, which is only the size of a D segment car (Vectra/Mondeo). The Mustang is a purpose built Coupe. Even with the GT500, I bet it would still post a slower 'Ring time in real-life than an M3 CSL. The handling would be it's downfall.
 
Man, I just dont understand why europeans are all obsessed over their precious M3, It's not all that great in everything, it jut happens to handle great. It doesn't complete the trifecta of everything, that hanour goes to the Corvette, Handeling, Power, and Looks. Belive me, I am not biased against amercian cars, I really do not lke them. But you have to admit when you've been beaten.
 
But the Corvette is soundly beaten by the 911 (Turbo/GT3/Carrera S) and the M3 at 5 years old, is far better than the CTS-V, designed to be an M5 competitor. You don't think handling is the ultimate? Besides the M3 has been timed to 60 as low as 4.8 in Autocar, which is very quick for a car weighing 1500kg and only packing 343bhp.
 
vectradriver
In fairness there are very few American cars listed in the road-test section, mainly because we don't get many of them. Still, those quotes show that even those cars, designed to rival the best Europe has to offer (the 911 and the 5 Series) lack what it takes. Now how is a family-sedan, built to a price going to be able to handle well enough to make it around the 'Ring?

Have you noticed that the 5-Series costs over $100,000 USD?? I know only a few people that can afford that. My grandfateris one (who had 4 Cadillacs, but now since he got a new job, got an S class), and a 911 isn't exactly something you just decide to get. My parents both have GM cars (an Oldsmobile Silhouette minivan and a Chevy Malibu Maxx) and both are great family cars. You need to look past all of the gas guzzlers and muscle cars , but that is kind of hard since you live in the UK, as it is for me to know what Euro cars are like since i am in the US. Can't we all get this back on topic before it gets locked? I opened it last night and now have 3 pages, that's pretty good, and seems popular.
 
FireEmblem62
Man, I just dont understand why europeans are all obsessed over their precious M3, It's not all that great in everything, it jut happens to handle great. It doesn't complete the trifecta of everything, that hanour goes to the Corvette, Handeling, Power, and Looks. Belive me, I am not biased against amercian cars, I really do not lke them. But you have to admit when you've been beaten.
Actually, the M3 handles fabulously, it has plenty of power and the chassis to make optimum use of it, and looks are totally subjective and therefore irrelevant (even though I prefer the M3's look to the 'Vette). And the M3 offers a back seat, which the 'Vette does not. In fact I was majorly disappointed that there is no E46 M3 sedan, because that would have been my ideal car.

But this isn't a thread to discuss favorite cars. It's a thread to discuss Useless things in GT4. So let's move the discussion back that way, now.
 
Why yes, handeling is the ultimate, as I hate how people always talk all power, a good amount of power is 375bhp, with a great handeling chassis will be the ultimate car. you Europeans need to get off your high-horse about the M3 though, your magazines are so biased its not funny.
 
vectradriver, you're the one who needs to grow up. You're displaying an incredible amount of Euro-fanboyism here. When all you do is read European magazines, which naturally favor the European cars, you'll obviously have a biased viewpoint. People who read American magazines like Hot Rod and Road & Track will probably be biased towards American cars.

Maybe you should take a step back and read what you're writing. Then realize that the reason the US doesn't have a direct competitor to the M3 is because Americans don't buy cars like the M3. The markets are totally different. Hell, prestige here is often indicated by driving a bigger, shinier SUV than the next guy! I hate SUVs but if they make the car companies money, that's what will be made.

America is full of wide open roads. Our whole "car culture" is based around comfortable long-distance cruising and going fast in a straight line. We don't have the same twisty, narrow streets that cover most of Europe. So please forgive American car companies if they are hesitant to design, build, market and sell cars that aren't popular enough to turn a profit.

And why are you so pissed about American cars anyway? Why don't you rag on the Japanese for all those keicars? Those are tiny and underpowered, and I doubt anyone would consider them fun to drive (if not in real life, then at least in the game). There are dozens of keicars in GT4, none of which are nearly as fun as most of the American cars that were put into the game, but I don't hear you complaining about them.
 
Yep all American cars suck and now lets all bow to the mighty M3. Of course I am being sarcastic. I'm sick of all these bias haters going around claiming to be car guys. We (America) should have conquered the world when we had the chance after WWII. Then we wouldn't have to deal with people like this because we would all be Americans.

If you love Euro cars so much then go buy them, just don't go pushing your BS opinions off on the rest of the world. No one cares about your opinion because it's horribly biased. Now if you would have come here with a reasonable discussion and not just idiotic statements that mean nothing this might have been an interesting little topic.

Weren't you done with this forum? Why are you still here?
 
IMADreamer
Yep all American cars suck and now lets all bow to the mighty M3. Of course I am being sarcastic. I'm sick of all these bias haters going around claiming to be car guys. We (America) should have conquered the world when we had the chance after WWII. Then we wouldn't have to deal with people like this because we would all be Americans.

If you love Euro cars so much then go buy them, just don't go pushing your BS opinions off on the rest of the world. No one cares about your opinion because it's horribly biased. Now if you would have come here with a reasonable discussion and not just idiotic statements that mean nothing this might have been an interesting little topic.

Weren't you done with this forum? Why are you still here?
This was slightly less mature than even the original posts. Thanks for playing, and we have some nice parting gifts for you.
 
Not all American cars are suited for English people, but by the same contrast, not all English cars are suited to Americans. At the end of the day, more Americans will preffer American cars in much the same way that more British people will preffer British car, more French people will preffer French cars and Poverty will preffer German cars.

I'm not a big American car fan, but since I haven't driven many American cars myself, I'm limited to not being much of a fan based on reports and styling. But I do know tht there are some good American cars, just because I don't like car does not automatically make car A a bad car, it just means it doesn't make me tick or it doesn't meet my requirements.wants in a car. There's simply no denying that cars like the C6 Corvette are great cars, and fantastic value for moeny if your in te market for a two seater sportscar, however UK sales are deal a big blow by them being lhd only. You haev to remember not all cars are built to go around a track, some are actually built to make your journey as pleasent as possible. No not all American cars are good, or close to good, but I'm sure plenty of people can name plenty of European and British cars that arn't good, or close to good as well. The bottom line is that there are some good cars in America.

I'd also like to point out that saying "If America ever makes a car that beats an M3, I'll eat my hat" is stupid, everyone knows that the M3 is the best at what it does, well some may argue that the RS4 is up there, but it's the M3 with the attention so we'll use that for now. To say another country is no good at making cars unless it makes a car that can do what the M3 does, but better is frankly ridiculous, firstly, you can make a pretty damn good car and have it not be as good as an M3, secondly the M3 isn't the definitive saloon car, it's much more of a niche, you don't see M3's produced in the tens of thousands, so what if 90% of car manufacturers decline to try and get a slice of the M3's pie.

In America a lot of European cars don't make sensible purchases mainly due to price, you see we can get a European car for £30k over here, a similarly specced American car will cost maybe £30-£35k over here, but $30k in the states, now when our £30k car get's imported to America, it still costs £30k, no, not $30k, but £30k which is roughly $50k, and there's the problem with a lot of European built cars being sold in America.

vectradriver, your no better than thoes people who go around calling every car with any mod what-so-ever a ricer, regardless of the mods purpose or effect.
 
...Make way for the American car guy...

Vectradriver, grow up, read a few books, and then make a vaild assumption based on fact, then your opinion may be considered valid by most people. American cars are what they are, for the most part designed and built to be bought, owned, and operated in North America by Americans and Canadians. So guess what, many of our cars are designed to travel well down highways and interstates, as the overwhelming majority of the roads in the US are set up on a grid pattern, which means no runabouts and other silly things that are in Europe.

...As for the M3, you could pick a better car than that. The current M3 is on it's last leg, and has had it's ass handed to it not only by the Corvette (not any notches better than the M3), The CTS-V, but even to some extent by the Pontiac GTO and Mustang SVT Cobra and GT500. Care to tell me why the M3 is better by than the rest of those? Especially when it is priced thousdands more than the rest listed above here in the US?

Get real for a second and think about what you are talking about. I love American cars and I love European cars, and for the most part, European cars are indeed better than the majority of their American competition, but that doesn't mean everything is either. Dollar for dollar, pound for pound, the American competition stacks up quite well against the Europeans given their cheaper insurance rates, lower replacement parts costs, and often times better fuel economy. The only thing I'm slightly biased against are Japanese models, but even then, I don't hate all of them.

Don't belive everything Top Gear, CAR, or whatever other European magazine spits out as often times they are completely wrong when it comes to American cars. Take a chance, read Car and Driver, and you might find a valid opinion for or against the American and European superpowers in the world car market.
 
The M3 isn't thousands more over here in Europe, you can't discuss what is the best value becuase different markets face you with different economies and different prices, different taxes and different laws reagarding what makes that car road legal. In America the European cars are generally priced higher. Rather the opposite over here, the American car never cost less than the competion, sometimes the same thereabouts, and often more, but not less and the parts and insurance are often higher. In Japan it's the Japanese cars that rule the roost, any guesses as to why that is.

But if we wern't to believe wha European car mags had to say about American cars, that would mean the Corvette, Viper and Mustang arn't actually any good, because the mags liked them.
 
The only thing thus far that I've disagreed with (besides Vectra's post) is that the GT 500 is even close to comparing with the M3. It really isn't. The GTO is closer, but the M3 could outhandle a C5 on a good day, and the GTO is too heavy and old to manage to outhandle an M3 as well. The thing is though, that while the current M3 is old, it is still the benchmark of the class, as the only cars comparing with it are from Germany (Audi is close though). U.S. only has the CTS-V, which is regarded by some to be too brash.
vectradriver
Corvette C6: "The best 'Vette yet to drive, and build quality is much improved, but still no 911."
The Porsche starts at 20-30 K more than the Corvette.
vectradriver
CTS 3.6: " A novel alternative to BMW's and Merc's, but the novelty wears off, leaving you with a car that is little more than average."
The 3.6 L is hardly the best engine with which to compare against the German cars. You've also never heard of the Lincoln LS, have you?
 
L4S
The M3 isn't thousands more over here in Europe, you can't discuss what is the best value becuase different markets face you with different economies and different prices, different taxes and different laws reagarding what makes that car road legal.

I was refering to the cars listed there above, so I apologise for my lack grammatical skils. I will fix it, and refer to it as here in the US like I meant to say.

...And Tornado, I wouldn't count the LY7 out when it comes to European and Japanese competion. The 3.6L is a great V6, and now that they will be adding DI end of this year or next, it should really make it a nice package. Granted, it isn't a BMW I6 (thats a tough formula to beat), but I'd dare to say the LY7 is comparable to the Nissan/Infiniti VQ35 and Toyota 3.5 (I don't know the code) in most circumstances.
 
In fairness to vectradriver, in the original thread, he did somewhat apologize.
 
YSSMAN
I was refering to the cars listed there above, so I apologise for my lack grammatical skils. I will fix it, and refer to it as here in the US like I meant to say.
No need to apologise, I understood you meant just in the USA, I was just saying that if you place the best on the cars price you just end up with a tug of war effect, you have the American people saying that car A is better because it's cheaper, and the Europeans saying no car B is cheaper, and that can go on and on and on, and often does with various other strands of discussion in between and no one wins but both claim to. I hope you get what I'm saying, the only way to define the best value is to contain it to one country, because the value of the cars change from place to place, you end up with the result me and Blazin often came to, that's best there and this is best here ect.
 
Yes I didn't say it to be confrontational. If you can't accept at face value that America doesn't make as many great cars as Europe, then sorry, but it is objective truth. Quality is lower, chassis design is cruder and design budgets are much lower. For 'real' car fans, a lot of you have very poor understanding of the Global car market and how it is perceived.

Oh the Lincoln LS. The one that was based on the original poor S Type chassis, before the 2002 revisions for Europe made the S Type a rather good handling car. Trust me, early S Type's were not renowned for being a good drive. Maybe by American standards, but not by ours.

Regarding what you say about British magazines. I read (and have had work experience at) Autocar. They were the first and are extremely well renowned in the world of Automotive Journalism. As one of the most influential magazines in the business, they have a road-test of every European car and every significant American car too that has made it to these shores. Considering Britain only gets the top American cars, is it a surprise when these cars consistently come out worse than their European opposition? I mean that is the best cars America has to offer.
 
Duke
This was slightly less mature than even the original posts. Thanks for playing, and we have some nice parting gifts for you.

Nice, I hope it's cookware.

Anywho, you have to speak on the level of those you are talking to or they won't get it.

It's not that I totally disagree with the guy because he is partly right. There really isn't an American car that can directly compete with the M3. It's not because American cars are so inferior though but because we don't build cars like that here. However if you want to speak in terms of sportiness, handling, speed, and the ability to go around a track at an insane speed then we certainly do make cars that will do that. The Corvette comes to mind, and especially the Z06 which in terms of track ability it's superior to the M3. As someone else stated the Mustang GT500 is a contender too.

I guess what separates those cars from the Euro sporty luxary cars is the gadgetry. The Euro guys are way better then the Americans at that. Again though, I think it's because there is not that huge demand for that here so the car companies don't bother with it.

You can't read car mags and make the conclusion that one country is far superior to the other in car manufacturing. Euro Mags are bias towards Euro cars, American mags are bias towards Japanese cars, and well no one really supports the Americans. It's not because they aren't building good cars or can't build good cars but it's because it's very fashionable to hate America right now. It's even more fashionable to bash the big three. Most of this is unfounded idiotic babble by people who either A. hate America or B. sucum to advertising dollars and promote the hand that feeds them.

If instead of bashing American cars people would go out and drive them they would see that they aren't that bad. No one is going to see that though because they would rather take someone elses word for it.
 
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