Tuning Zonda C12S, tell your story

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I would like to know how anyone tune Pagani Zonda C12S. It could be from recent 11th tuning competition or past experience.

Here's mine:
Fully tuned, at Autumn ring Zonda C12S shows some very bad understeer nature. At mid corner it will tend to go wide, every push or lift off throttle make it turn even wider. You can't get fast in corner at all. What make it worse, it has so much power. It will send the rear to swing around if you don't do some throttle control. Without some TCS, I don't think I will be able to tune this car properly. Very understeer car that will send you to spin if you don't control your throttle.

The first thing I did was reducing the acceleration. I do this by fitting stock flywheel and using 5.500 final drive. And of course, TCS=1. The car became more tame now. Slower, but I can control it better, besides, I still leave the stage 3 NA mods in place, still powerfull :).

Next was to cure the understeer. I start tuning with softest possible suspension and then make stabilizer balance toward the rear. After some turn I realize that this car need plenty of that, so 1/7 for stabilizer. Since many car mid corner behaviour can be improved easily with stabilizer, I really wish PD provide the stabilizer range between 1 to 10. The car behaviour on mid corner is slight understeer now.

Next I tried to see how it handle when I push or lift off throttle during cornering. It still go wide. To cure this, I make the damper balance toward the front. After some trying I found 10/7 10/7 damper would be good for me. At this value, the car would not be tail sliding when lift off or go wide when push throttle during cornering.

Next, I tried to find what is the lowest ride height possible for this car in Autumn ring. When using minimum ride height the car suddenly feel unstable on many turns, loose grip often. At medium height, the car feels ok, but at last corner the car rear will slowly drift to the outside, something that is not happen when using maximum ride height. So I raise the height to the final 80/80.

Next, brake, since I don't know much about braking I use my safe braking value 4/1.

In the end, this tuning satisfy me with better mid corner handling and no surprise corner entry. The car still has problem though. It will loose front traction easily, understeer on limit, hard to recover from sliding and still rough transition from low speed oversteer and highspeed understeer.

Code:
Tuner: Sucahyo

Car: Pagani Zonda C12S

Part List, 917hp:
Oil change, Stage 3 NA, Stage 3 Weight mods,
Race flywheel, tripple plate clutch, race muffler
Variable (FC) LSD, FC transmission, Race FC suspension, stock brake, brake controller
S3 tire

Suspension:
-Spring rate: 6.5 / 6.5
-Ride Height: 80 / 80
-Bound: 10 / 7
-Rebound: 10 / 7
-Camber: 0.0 / 0.0
-Toe: 0 / 0
-Stabilizer: 1 / 7

LSD:
-Initial: 5
-Acceleration: 30
-Deceleration: 15

Downforce:
Amount: - / -

Driving Aids:
TCS: 1

Brake Controller:
-Brakes: 4 / 1

Transmission:
move final drive to 5.500, then move auto to 9

How about yours?
 
Yes, I am surprise with the understeer behaviour, I though this car would feel oversteer like Ford GT from it's MR configuration. From reading S7 vs Zonda, this C12S seem very different than other Zonda.
 
I struggled with brakes and understeer, judging the fact that this thing is MR I thought I'd struggle with oversteer like I did with the GT.
 
What suspension part that you all use to cure the understeer?

TS, I am curious about how your final setting feel. Do you able to remove the understeer?
 
i sold mine sometimes ago, because i was really frustrated after reading reports about the zonda where it was a brilliant car, and then in GT4 it simply sucks!

viper
 
i sold mine sometimes ago, because i was really frustrated after reading reports about the zonda where it was a brilliant car, and then in GT4 it simply sucks!

viper

It really isn't a bad car at all, but it is a very powerful MR car with a GREAT stock suspension. Most of the powerful MR cars will understeer some under heavy acceleration, and this only gets more pronounced as you add power to the car. The key is learning the particular car and the amount of throttle you can use without inducing understeer. Remember that with the Zonda you can also induce oversteer either by lift-off, or if you're in a low enough gear, by punching it and ripping the rears loose (if you are not using TCS). Overall this is a well balanced elegant car, but it does require finesse on the part of the driver. Also, the car really doesn't do well if you stiffen the suspension at all (except on completely smooth tracks). I often just run the stock suspension since it provides adequate ground clearance and softness for the courses I drive, which are mostly bumpy.
 
What suspension part that you all use to cure the understeer?

TS, I am curious about how your final setting feel. Do you able to remove the understeer?

With my final settings, the car felt much more balanced in the corners but with a hint of understeer coming off the corner. I still struggled with braking though, and I had to slow down much earlier which really killed my corner entry because I would either go in too hot and get in the dirt or come in too light and lost my overall momentum. However, the shorter gear ratios I put in helped that for the most part.
 
i sold mine sometimes ago, because i was really frustrated after reading reports about the zonda where it was a brilliant car, and then in GT4 it simply sucks!
That's too bad. This car give me different feel after tuning, more delicate handling. Fighting with fast corner oversteer :scared:.

It really isn't a bad car at all, but it is a very powerful MR car with a GREAT stock suspension. Most of the powerful MR cars will understeer some under heavy acceleration, and this only gets more pronounced as you add power to the car. The key is learning the particular car and the amount of throttle you can use without inducing understeer. Remember that with the Zonda you can also induce oversteer either by lift-off, or if you're in a low enough gear, by punching it and ripping the rears loose (if you are not using TCS). Overall this is a well balanced elegant car, but it does require finesse on the part of the driver. Also, the car really doesn't do well if you stiffen the suspension at all (except on completely smooth tracks). I often just run the stock suspension since it provides adequate ground clearance and softness for the courses I drive, which are mostly bumpy.
This car will understeer even when not under acceleration. Really different from Ford GT. Understeer at lift off too. It seem like it would understeer at everything except when we use trail braking or power oversteer. Since I don't do that while driving, it gives me problem.
I like my car to feel soft too now :).

TS
With my final settings, the car felt much more balanced in the corners but with a hint of understeer coming off the corner. I still struggled with braking though, and I had to slow down much earlier which really killed my corner entry because I would either go in too hot and get in the dirt or come in too light and lost my overall momentum. However, the shorter gear ratios I put in helped that for the most part.
I see. I just curious since your spring rate and camber looks to me like creating more understeer. Is there any chance that those front camber is the source of weak braking?
 
That's too bad. This car give me different feel after tuning, more delicate handling. Fighting with fast corner oversteer :scared:.

This car will understeer even when not under acceleration. Really different from Ford GT. Understeer at lift off too. It seem like it would understeer at everything except when we use trail braking or power oversteer. Since I don't do that while driving, it gives me problem.
I like my car to feel soft too now :).

I see. I just curious since your spring rate and camber looks to me like creating more understeer. Is there any chance that those front camber is the source of weak braking?

I don't believe it was, I only raised it by 1 degree to 3.0.
 
I am suprised by how many of you went for the maximum tune on this car, here's my settings... and keep in mind that it can consistantly pull 1:17's (only 0.5 off my person best in the Full Tune C12S).

Code:
Tuner: Der Meister
- 1219_8-Sept-2006

Car: Pagani Zonda C12S
-Colour: Silver
-Power: 616HP/5550rpm
-Weight: 1309lg
-Power/Weight Ratio: 2.095
-Torque: 834.37NM/4100rpm
-Mileage: 93.2km

Part List: 
Exhaust
- Semi-Racing
Brakes
- Brake Balance Controller
Engine
- Computer Chip
- Port Polishing
- Engine Balancing
Transmission
- Fully Customised Gearbox
- Twin-Plate Clutch
- Sports Flywheel
- 1-Way LSD
Suspension
- Semi-Racing
Extras
- Weight Reduction Stage 1
- Weight Reduction Stage 2
- Weight Reduction Stage 3
Wheels
- 
 
Suspension
-Spring Rate: 11.5 / 8.1
-Ride Height: 68 / 69
-Damper: 3 / 4
-Bound: - / -
-Rebound: - / -
-Camber: 3.3 / 1.8
-Toe: - / -
-Stabilizers: - / -
 
LSD
-Initial: - / -
-Acceleration: - / -
-Deceleration: - / -

Downforce
Amount: - / -
 
Driving Aids
-TCS: 0
-AS/O: -
-AS/U: -
 
Brake Controller
-Brakes: 4 / 4
 
Transmission
Gear Ratios
1st: 5.122
2nd: 3.703
3rd: 2.828
4th: 2.258
5th: 1.884
6th: 1.487
7th: -
Final Gear: 2.900

Autoset: 1

Other
VCD: -

Notes
-

As you can see this setup is as basic as you could go with still having some credibility. But from recent experiences with these heavy MR's, I've learned that Semi-Racing Suspension is your saviour, it is no where near as stiff as Racing Suspension, but still provides enough stability and options to create a near perfect ride.

This car has well and truely enough power for Autumn Ring without upgrading the output. The only place that more horsepower is any use is on the main straight. Trying to control the wheelspin through the corners is a massive annoyance, and trying to add Traction Control hinders the acceleration too much.

I hope this proves helpful? 👍
 
What do you guys think of this setup?


Code:
Tuner: BlackBird

Car: Pagani Zonda C12S

Part List, 1003hp:
Oil change, Stage 3 NA, Stage 3 Weight reduction,
Racing flywheel, triple-plate clutch, race muffler
Variable (FC) LSD, FC transmission, Race suspension, racing brake, brake controller
R3 tire

Suspension:
-Spring rate: 13.8 / 11.2
-Ride Height: 75 / 75
-Bound: 4/ 4
-Rebound: 6 / 6
-Camber: 2.0 / 1.0
-Toe: 0 / 0
-Stabilizer: 4 / 6

LSD:
-Initial: 10
-Acceleration: 30
-Deceleration: 30

Downforce:
Amount: - / -

Driving Aids:
TCS: 5

Brake Controller:
-Brakes: 14 / 10

Transmission:
 auto to 12

What do you think? Any advice and twinking would be nice.👍
 
Well I think the high auto set really isn't possible, I have mine set to 5. Except for the brakes, and LSD, you've left the setups alone.
 
TS
I didn't memorize the default setup, but some of the settings there weren't changed. Why did you do full tune on it?

Why not? I guess i didnt notice it was the default settings. Right now i'm trying to find the best setting for a full tuned Zonda S12 so i'm playing around with the settings and stuff.
 
Why not? I guess i didnt notice it was the default settings. Right now i'm trying to find the best setting for a full tuned Zonda S12 so i'm playing around with the settings and stuff.

There is no point in Fully Tuning the Zonda C12S, you will never get a comfortable race car, and it's a massive waste of credits (about Cr.75,000). The racing suspension is far too stiff for the weight of the car, you will have a very heavy slippery bucket smashing ripple strips that feel stronger than a concrete wall. Also, remember that this thread is more perticularly about Tuning Competition Week 11; Zonda C12S @ Autumn Ring on Sports Soft tyres, Racing Soft/Qualifying tyres give a much grippier feel to the car.

So take your car to Autumn Ring (forward) and give it Sports Soft (S3) tyres, then try your settings, you will suprised at the difference. 👍
 
As you can see this setup is as basic as you could go with still having some credibility. But from recent experiences with these heavy MR's, I've learned that Semi-Racing Suspension is your saviour, it is no where near as stiff as Racing Suspension, but still provides enough stability and options to create a near perfect ride.

This car has well and truely enough power for Autumn Ring without upgrading the output. The only place that more horsepower is any use is on the main straight. Trying to control the wheelspin through the corners is a massive annoyance, and trying to add Traction Control hinders the acceleration too much.
Are you saying semi racing suspension will be softer even with higher spring rate value? I always think that spring rate value is what matter, not the type of suspension. Since semi racing do not always has lower minimum spring rate value. It has even higher value than FC suspension one sometime (sorry, I forget which car). I find FC suspension usually give the most spring rate tuning range.

Since I use DS2, even on lowest power C12S is a beast. I alwasy have trouble at low speed corner. When I use TCS, even the minimum value is too much. The car accelerated very slow. No other choice but to max the power. Of course I use thing that can reduce tire spin, stock flywheel and 5.500 final drive.

What do you guys think of this setup?
Too much TCS, even 1 is overkill, use stock flywheel to reduce wheelspin. As I see it (can't test it right now), this car won't be understeer as much with that stabilizer and spring rate.

The racing suspension is far too stiff for the weight of the car
Even with 6.5/6.5 spring rate?

BTW, how do you know it's too stiff?
 
Are you saying semi racing suspension will be softer even with higher spring rate value? I always think that spring rate value is what matter, not the type of suspension. Since semi racing do not always has lower minimum spring rate value. It has even higher value than FC suspension one sometime (sorry, I forget which car). I find FC suspension usually give the most spring rate tuning range.

Since I use DS2, even on lowest power C12S is a beast. I alwasy have trouble at low speed corner. When I use TCS, even the minimum value is too much. The car accelerated very slow. No other choice but to max the power. Of course I use thing that can reduce tire spin, stock flywheel and 5.500 final drive.

Even with 6.5/6.5 spring rate?

BTW, how do you know it's too stiff?

Yeh, the Semi Racing suspension isn't as stiff as Racing. I'm pretty sure it even tells you that when buy the suspension itself. Have a read of the ticker box at the bottom of the screen when you buy it.

I did try the same values on Semi-Racing as on Racing, and the Racing was far stiffer and more rough over the curbs. The back end is especially more slippery too.

I'm not sure how, but it just gives a smoother ride - perhaps the Racing Suspension is setup more prescise, where as the Semi has some slack in the reaction time of the shock absorbers, and therefore makes the ride appear smoother?
 
I see, since in my 300mph tuning experience I find that no matter what suspension type it is, as long as it give the lowest spring rate, it will give the fastest speed.
I do some wheel cycle per minutes counting before, and I can't find the difference between both.
 
I see, since in my 300mph tuning experience I find that no matter what suspension type it is, as long as it give the lowest spring rate, it will give the fastest speed.
I do some wheel cycle per minutes counting before, and I can't find the difference between both.

It wasn't top speed that I was looking for in from the Zonda, is was a comfortable ride - I don't think that the 300mph test can really confirm any ride characteristics, because even Autumn Ring wasn't enough for me, I took both setups (1. Racing Sus., 2. Semi Racing Sus.) to 3 other tracks to varify how much of a difference there was, those tracks being Nurburgring, El Capitan & Opera Paris... the 3 bumpiest circuits I could think of off the top of my head.

Around Nurburgring I was a massive 45sec quicker on Semi Racing.
" El Capitan I was 6sec quicker on Semi Racing.
" Opera Paris I was 3sec quicker on Semi Racing.

Both springs were set to a setting as close as possible to each other's amount, and exact where they could be matched.

I don't think it was that the car really was so much quicker, it was just smoother and I felt a lot more confident on the Semi-Racing, which is what the judges are looking for, or at least I would be if I was judging it: Something that's easy to pick up, and makes you feel confident to push hard.

Not only that but something else I also noticed last night when I had a play with the Zonda is that the braking feels smoother on Semi-Racing springs. 👍
 
I see, what I do is a bit different, and in GT2. spring rate value is not equal to spring stiffness?

Both springs were set to a setting as close as possible to each other's amount, and exact where they could be matched.
I am sure you already set bound and rebound equal when comparing, but did you set the stabilizer at 1 when using semiracing suspension? since this is the value of stabilizer when you equip car with semi racing suspension (from hack).
In stock suspension car will have maximum ride height, 1/1 1/1 damper, 0.0/0.0 camber, 0/0 toe, and 1/1 stabilizer.

If you already did the above, it is a very interesting info. The possibility of softer feel not only comes from softer spring (which can be estimated with how much the car bounce in a second), but also from stiffer damper or softer stabilizer.
 
Both springs were set to a setting as close as possible to each other's amount, and exact where they could be matched.

As Suchayo pointed out spring rates alone will not give you the full picture, you have to take into account how the dampers are set, which on the FC suspension are very, very stiff as a default (far too stiff for most light cars on a bumpy track) and the Stabilisers, which again can have a massive effect on any car on a bumpy track (but particularly lighter cars).

You are right in saying that FC is stiffer that Semi-racing, but that's on the default settings, also it can be very difficult to exactly match up every setting between the two suspension types and with a lighter car even a small difference in the spring rate and/or a few clicks on the dampers will make a huge difference. One of the worst culprits can also be the often forgotten stabilisers (anti-roll bars) these can have a massive effect on a car on a bumpy track and the difference in default values (5 for semi-racing and 7 for FC if I recall) can make or break a light cars set-up.

However, as with most tuning, what works for you is whats best. If you prefer the way semi-racing feels for this car and it allows you to get the most out of it then its the 'right' way to go.


Regards

Scaff
 
I see, what I do is a bit different, and in GT2. spring rate value is not equal to spring stiffness?

I am sure you already set bound and rebound equal when comparing, but did you set the stabilizer at 1 when using semiracing suspension? since this is the value of stabilizer when you equip car with semi racing suspension (from hack).
In stock suspension car will have maximum ride height, 1/1 1/1 damper, 0.0/0.0 camber, 0/0 toe, and 1/1 stabilizer.

If you already did the above, it is a very interesting info. The possibility of softer feel not only comes from softer spring (which can be estimated with how much the car bounce in a second), but also from stiffer damper or softer stabilizer.

Yes! Wow, I had no idea that so many people knew about that?! :dopey:

I did my own hack on that a year ago with my brother when we were trying to make our own AR MAX codes for the game, I wrote down heaps of setting data, it came in really handy for setting up a car on demanding tracks where Max A-Spec points were hard to achieve.

We used a program called PS2-DIS... I think I found it on a site called CodeMastersProject. We hacked all sorts of things like Turbo wind up rates and everything, there's so much data for everything, it's crazy! :D

But getting back OT, like I said, everything that could be matched, was matched... the only other things were parts such LSD, which I had no data for, but I did change them quite a lot to see what would change. - I managed to find a LSD setting that felt as close as possible to the 1 way setting when I was testing - I'll see if I can find it. Maybe if one of you have hacked LSD I'd be able to see how close I really was :lol:
 
Yes! Wow, I had no idea that so many people knew about that?! :dopey:

I did my own hack on that a year ago with my brother when we were trying to make our own AR MAX codes for the game, I wrote down heaps of setting data, it came in really handy for setting up a car on demanding tracks where Max A-Spec points were hard to achieve.

We used a program called PS2-DIS... I think I found it on a site called CodeMastersProject. We hacked all sorts of things like Turbo wind up rates and everything, there's so much data for everything, it's crazy! :D

But getting back OT, like I said, everything that could be matched, was matched... the only other things were parts such LSD, which I had no data for, but I did change them quite a lot to see what would change. - I managed to find a LSD setting that felt as close as possible to the 1 way setting when I was testing - I'll see if I can find it. Maybe if one of you have hacked LSD I'd be able to see how close I really was :lol:
Cool, you know how to read somthing in PS2DIS, any info on how to remove flip limiter code? make car can flip in GT4?

It's really interesting that you find semi racing has different behaviour than the FC one. I might use semi racing too in the future and see how it improve my tuning.

If you want LSD value, I can provide you, name the car. 5/20/10 in stock supra.
 
Cool, you know how to read somthing in PS2DIS, any info on how to remove flip limiter code? make car can flip in GT4?

I have no idea how to do that, we spent all of a few hours on GT4 studying some stuff, but what we were looking for was nothing to do with Flipping a car, we were mainly looking into setup details, so I don't recall any info on that. Sorry :indiff:

It's really interesting that you find semi racing has different behaviour than the FC one. I might use semi racing too in the future and see how it improve my tuning.

Yeh, it's interesting to comprimise, the most expensive/impressive part isn't always right for a perticular car. It also comes down to driving style though, so you might not find the results that I did (unless you have the same technique as me).

If you want LSD value, I can provide you, name the car. 5/20/10 in stock supra.

That's handy to know - I've heard that the R34 Skylines have a very good standard LSD ratio... what is it? 👍
 
Around Nurburgring I was a massive 45sec quicker on Semi Racing.
" El Capitan I was 6sec quicker on Semi Racing.
" Opera Paris I was 3sec quicker on Semi Racing.


I find this is a pretty common experience in general. The racing suspension can be softened up a lot of course, but overall I'm usually happier with a softer suspension in the first place, so why go through all the trouble of tuning the full Racing suspension? Almost all my favorite courses are just too rough to really make use of the full Racing suspension except in the heaviest of cars. There are exceptions of course, but for the most part, I stick with stock, sports, or semi-racing suspensions. Besides which, I like the way different cars feel different (on the DFP), and the Racing Suspension tends to make them feel too similar. (Edit: As noted below, I too have found cases where the Full Racing suspension can actually be set softer than the semi-racing, but I haven't looked into it enough to know if this is common.)
 
Sometime racing suspension will allow us to use lower spring rate value than semi racing one. In this case, which do you prefer?

XGT Taipan, LSD value of R34 is 0/5, 0/20, 0/10. I recall this is impossible to set using Varible LSD tune up.
 
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