GTHD and GT5 Environmental Studio

I haven't made a thread in this forum in a while. The purpose of this thread is to discuss environmental aspects of GTHD and GT5. I'm not asking for "tree-huggers" to get in here and show that this game can actually prevent global warming, but it's about thinking of what the next environmental game engine should provide. I haven't seen any threads or similar threads on environmental aspects of GTHD and GT5. So let me start a discussion here.

The environment of any game gives you a general perspective of what situations you will face in trying to clear as many of the game's objectives as possible. Nothing is more special than a rapidly-changing environment. The world of racing certainly has its environmental aspects. You will have some beautifully-clear days and nights. Or sometimes, you'll have incredibly wet races. In GT4's defense, they couldn't exactly work out a good enough envrionment engine that actually works with GT4. Any sort of environment that will present the racer with a unique challenge usually makes for a great game. GT games have been more about track detail and car detail. So maybe there wasn't much in the bag for a considerable envrionment engine.

We certainly have scarce details of what GTHD or GT5 will entail. We certainly know that something like this would make for highly interesting racing. I have a good reason why GTHD and/or GT5 will NEED some rainy races. The simple reason is that slicks don't make for pure success racing on wet surfaces. It's almost as if you're challenged in racing on wet surfaces with non-wet tires. Getting out rain tires/tyres will entail about three extra sets of tires- Intermediate Tires, Wet Tires, and Heavy Rain Tires ( <- is there a such thing?). I think PD will need to experiment slick surfaces a lot more. I've even heard of races (especially on temporary street circuits and such) about how the racing surface gets even more slick with painted sections of the track. Think of the Burke Lakefront Airport course Champ Car runs. If it's wet when racing on those airport runways, some of the paint on the tarmac can make racing feel even more like being on ice if a turn has some paint on it. But I definitely think Racing Rain Tires will help in wet conditions so that you don't have to go with your choice of racing tire for race cars.

This thread is all about the environmental aspects of tracks in GTHD and GT5. It's a technical discussion of simulating the environment and even weather in GTHD and GT5. You are free to get this thread going with a reply.

It would make sub a catergory for lap times. Night, day, rain.

Think of a diabolical mission 34 in the rain.

Tire wise...in the real world tracks will dry out as the race goes on. Thus the need to change tires during a race. You couldn't leave B-spec bob alone on slicks if it started to rain.

About the existence of heavy rain tires...I think they might exist, because in BATracer (online browser-based game) there is an F1 2006 carset that gives you three sets of cut slick soft, cut slick hard, intermediates, rains, and "monsoons". Since the goal is for the car performance, times, weather, etc. to be accurate, I'd assume such a tire to exist.

Do you think there are any other environmental effects that the Gran Turismo series hasn't had and could make racing more interesting? Think about conditions like rain, snow, very hot temperatures, very cold temperatures, and that sort of thing. Also note that environmental talk can also relate to sky conditions. So it's possible to conceive a model which allows for a sky to clear beautifully... or cloud up very bad to have threats of rain. If you want to be creative, perhaps even think about dust storms in (granted we get something like this) something like Enthusia's Mirage Crossing. What about seeing beautiful auroras in the sky in far northern or far southern areas? What about maybe rainbows after storms in the daytime? I'm just here to offer discussion of what the next GT will be like with a completely life-like environmental model.

So have at it.

Included with new enviroment dynamics, i would like to see it play on the car. e.g you will notice your car is performing better because its cold, whilest if its really hot then you car wouldnt peform as good escpeccialy if your using a turbo car. If its really windy and the wind is blowing against you on the main straight your car's top speed will decrease but the use of slip streaming will greaten.

- Parts of the track that are in a shadow from trees or hills should be cooler and should affect handling and tire wear

- A setting sun should be blinding. You should be able to have a tented visor if you want.

- I remember a Playstation 1 F1 game that had tearoffs for your visor. No reason PS3 GT5 shouldnt or cant. Closed cockpit cars should have tearoffs on the windshield or should be cleaned in pits

- Debri from fans, hot dog wrappers etc should make its way on the track and get stuck on your grill and cause you to overheat (VERY RARE). I'm guessing the fans are part of the enviorment because in racing games if you turn down the enviorment sound it usually turns down the crowd volume

- The draft off of other cars (the air) should affect your handling

- insects hitting windshield/visor

- Deers, rabbits etc (on track. mostly tracks like Nurburgring)

What about fog? Try racing at night in pea-soup fog. You can't have your high beams on because they will blind you - that and the zero visibility thick fog causes mean you can't see where you are going. Talk about seat of the pants stuff, especially when all you can really use for reference is the braking markers, if you can see them. Add a wet track and you've got the stuff racing nightmares are made of.

shabba

What about fog? Try racing at night in pea-soup fog. You can't have your high beams on because they will blind you - that and the zero visibility thick fog causes mean you can't see where you are going. Talk about seat of the pants stuff, especially when all you can really use for reference is the braking markers, if you can see them. Add a wet track and you've got the stuff racing nightmares are made of.

Click to expand...

What you've got is what red/yellow flags are made of. If GT5 wanted to be realistic a yellow or red flag should be waved in those conditions

I remember a few years ago at Le Mans the rain was so bad the race was ran under full course caution for some time until it cleared up to the point where racing was plausible.

Of course they should include this all. Good ideas

Back in 1998., Ferrari F355 game had an option called "Magic Weather".

It allowed 7 (maybe even 8, I can't remeber right now) different light-settings on track. In normal game modes it was automatic, while you could choose your prefered option in custom races.

It made every track look different each time. Just remember reverse tracks in GT3 and you'll got the idea.

As for other, rain would do. Making dry-wet setting on every track optional would be a jump into hyperspace for the series.

RAIN ISSUES

I think that wet Le Mans race you are bringing up was the 2001 race (my first-ever Le Mans I've seen live. Haven't missed it ever since). It was the Le Mans that was used to film that Speed Tribe DVD of music. Speaking of 2001, it was the year we would lose names like Bob Wollek and Michele Alboreto in sportscar racing, and Dale Earnhardt Sr. in the oval racing ranks. We've still missed these people today.

On the topic of rain for every race, there has to be some exclusions. The races on Test Course and any other oval GT has lined up will need any rain because racing in the rain on an oval can be dangerous. Taking a high-speed corner on a banked oval can be dangerous. Sometimes, races on ovals with infield courses can have some delays and stoppages. I think the Rolex Sportscar Series (before Daytona Prototypes) had somewhat of a delay when they raced at Phoenix International Raceway's road course under the lights. There was a red flag in fact. A realistic model would mean that races may be restricted especially if there's a lot of ponding on the track. Already-wet courses will require you to find a "dry line." The dry line on a wet track is the best line to take when the course is wet. Going outside the dry line won't give your machine the ability to corner effectively in that specific part of the track. You want to be on the line that gives you the best traction possible on wet surfaces.

Rally racing can be a great challenge considering how some courses have different surfaces. You could be on gravel in some sections and dirt on others. A more realistic rally model would have gravel crews examine all the different surfaces so you can make the best setup for your rally car or truck. Rain and snow will really make a difference in how the race progresses.

FOG ISSUES
The issue of fog is a mixed issue for me, but only because of critics' views of this. Games in the past have had a sort of fog effect so that we don't get to see all of the track at once. You'll have things like polygon pop-ups which quickly loads certain polygons when the character gets to that certain location. The inclusion of fog would have some people complaining that they want to see all of the track as possible. Let me give you a non-racing example. About two years ago, there was a college football game in which the University of Southern California went up to play Oregon State. The field conditions saw a lot of nighttime fog for this game. The Trojans still spanked the OrSU Beavers to win. Had this been implemented into a college football video game, it would be tough to see downfield in all the different positions. Now back to racing. I can recall a (then) JGTC race at one track (I believe it was Fuji) when one race had fog all around the circuit. It was tough to really see anything. The race went on, but you had to be very careful piloting your race car around the track.

NIGHT/DARKNESS
I did a GT4 thread on darkness as well as lighting of tracks. I imagined a dark Grand Valley, for example. The lighting model doesn't look to constitute proper viewing of the road. "Enthusia" and "Le Mans 24 Hours" had wonderful lighting models. Le Mans 24, however, didn't have seriously dark conditions. On top of that, it didn't have reflective mapping. I really applaud Enthusia's model. Dragon Range (and even Marco Strada's night/wet race) is a big reason why. Note how the headlights really glitter whatever surface you shined it on. It was better than GT4's model. A big reason behind Enthusia's lighting model was that you could actually note sparkles of light from your car and even the background. Imagine having better brightness with most rally cars as well as certain Le Mans race cars. You have a lot of lighting. Or take this year's Petit Le Mans. The Ferrari F430GT by Risi Competizione lit up beautifully with the main lights and the four auxillary lights. Most series have races shortened because of darkness, especially those without sufficient lighting. And speaking of lighting, that will need to improve to really show some light in wet and dark races.

So those are a few other issues you can look into. Keep the discussion going with your input.

To continue about the environmental aspect of GTHD and GT5, I've recently played GTR on my computer. GTR (for the uninitiated) is a hardcore simulation racing game based on the FIA GT series. The least powerful cars you'll see are BMW M3 and Lotus Elises. Most poweful you'll see are Saleen S7Rs and Ferrari 550 Maranellos. I played the night version of the 24 Hour race at Spa-Francorchamps. I did a free run around Spa-Francorchamps with a Ferrari 360 Modena as my race car. I turned on the headlights in the game and noted how I could see a bit better. But when I turned headlights off, I noticed how dark it could really get. Nighttime around a permanent road course can be very dark. So dealing with traffic can be much more crucial than on most street courses. The lighting effects in GTR aren't as bright as you'd see in real life or on TV. On TV, it can be deceptively dark around the track. However, the cars and lighting thereof are VERY bright. I've never been to a race in my life, so I can't really say that I know of dark conditions in road racing very well.

Later, I've tried to run on two different tracks under two different settings. I did Pergusa under rainy conditions. My test mount was a Chrylser Viper GTS-R. It was too powerful for me to stay on the road, so I switched to the agile Ferrari 360 Modena. The track becomes horrible to stay on since you don't have a great deal of traction on your side. In addition, you may have to brake much earlier than you would under dry conditions. I used the same car, but switching to Heavy Rain conditions. The disparity in track conditions is much worse. You REALLY don't have a grip on the road surface now. Foggy/Misty conditions are eminent when rain or heavy rain is initiated in the game. My next test run was going to be much worse. I challenged myself to return to the Spa-Francorchamps night course. This time, race under Rainy conditions followed by Heavy Rain conditions. My test car was the wonderful-handling Corvette C5-R. It isn't the ALMS Corvette, but the black #94 Williams car. As wonderful as it handles under dry conditions, that wonderful handling doesn't mean a damn thing when it's wet. Think about this for a moment. I'm racing on a dark race course under rainy conditions. It's quite a gut check. I've overshot corners badly around Spa-Francorchamps. It was almost as if I had to master the course in the dry before mastering the course at night in the wet. This isn't like Enthusia's Marco Strada course or Tsukuba Wet/Night course whereas you have great lighting so that you don't have trouble seeing around the bend. The track itself was horrible to race on.

Now for Part 2. Heavy rain made things EXTREMELY worse. You still had the foggy effects coupled with a wet race track. I thought something was wrong with my gamepad when I blasted down the straights at this track. Turns out, I had to accelerate around the course using careful variations of throttle around the track. Let me provide you a real-life example. On Monday, October 16th, my classes were cancelled because of the heavy rain and flooding here in Houston. When my stepfather picked me up from school, he taught me about certain driving techniques when conditions were horrible. He has a 1995 Ford Ranger, so we obviously had some ground clearance since it's a truck. He told me that when I drive in bad weather like that Monday, I had to adjust the throttle, drive carefully, and use the brakes every now and then. Back to GTR. My driving was so bad that I wanted to see how the AI driver did it. The secret to driving better was to adjust throttle inputs. If you try to treat the road like a drag strip, you'll quickly lose traction and end up putting your car in a place where it shouldn't be.

Imagine rain being implemented in the GT series with inspiration from GTR. Racing in the rain will be much more difficult and really tough. Imagine GT's current driving model with GTR's driving model under wet conditions. Also note that I haven't been in racing conditions with rain or heavy rain in my GTR runs. Imagine if I did a JGTC/Super GT race in GT4 on a wet Suzuka track, a wet Tsukuba, or even a wet Tokyo R246. There are no rain tires in GT4, so I'll have to go on dry-type slick tires. As will everyone else. I'd have to adjust throttle input substantially to avoid extra trouble on the track. It will give people a chance to try to handle on a very wet track. Almost makes you appreciate how the challenging racing in the wet can be and how talented drivers are able to navigate these tracks properly.

Here's something else to think about in terms of environmental conditions. Take tracks like the Pikes Peak Hill Climb course and the Pikes Peak International Raceway course. In higher elevations, I've heard that engines don't perform as well in higher altitudes. That's not to mention that it can be tougher to breathe in Denver. A simulation on temperatures will perhaps propose certain modifications to GT in terms of cars vs. the climate. Think of extreme heat and extreme cold. Think Phoenix in the Summer compared to Barrows, Alaska in the Winter. Or even think of Melbourne, Victoria, Australia in the summer and Helsinki, Finland in the Winter.

Feel free to continue ANY discussion of a living and breathing environment engine in GTHD and/or GT5.

Maybe too much detail, but dirt being ripped up from going on the dirt, maybe to see it brought back onto the track, leaves falling, makes for great cinematics, and other than regular weather changes that should be good. Also the fact that even when you are in dirt coming back into pavement makes you tires run wierd untill all the gravel is out, id like to see the physics engine pick that up.

This was a GTHD-category thread. I've moved this to the GT5 forums for better discussion in GT5. To make this more relevant to GT5, I've moved this discussion to the GT5 forums.

This past weekend was the 24 Hours of Le Mans. It was a race that saw a cloudy race feature torrential downpours, a clearing evening, then the race ended with a lot of rain. Now, I've been thinking about how changes in the weather would be played out in a Gran Turismo game. If ever rain becomes an issue in GT5, I'd like to be able to think about buying Intermediate and various denominations of Rain tires. Take GTR in which you have tires for light rain all the way to heavy rain. In the history of Gran Turismo, only dry weather tires (dirt and snow nonwithstanding) are available. GT5 would have to introduce a weather forecasting feature in which changes in weather are greatly developed. An engine that allows for sunshine to go into monsoon rains and back to sunny skies would be possible. In addition to precipitation features, I'd be interested in a model that has more accurate temperatures. There could be a measure on track temperatures as well as the ambient air temperatures. I wouldn't know how to set up a car for such temperatures, so I'd imagine that the tires would be too hot on sultry hot days. Same goes for warm evenings. Now imagine something like Chamonix. Colder temperatures around the track would result in a loss of grip. The perfect transistion from hot to cold is when the Pikes Peak Hill Climb takes place. You start out on a pretty warm day at surface, then gets colder going through the clouds. Extreme elevation changes could do that. Finally, there's wind. I'd imagine that cars take an aerodynamic beating when winds are high.

So you're free to discuss any other aspects of environment with GT5. Wish to carry on?

I've created two videos on YouTube. The specific one here is my video look at Racing Modifications and other nuances of it. Have a look:


Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxJHD3AkGvU

I "demonstrated" a few things as far as environmental details go.