S6 vs M5 manual vs E63 AMG

  • Thread starter Poverty
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Poverty
The M5 has been getting beat by the audi and MB in a few comparos now.
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But it has teh l33t V10 and paddle shft transmision, liek teh Formula One cars! It can't be teh loser!
:sly:
Though I still think the 5.4L block was better than this new-fangled 6.2L block in the Mercedes.
 
The "Man in Black" takes it, big ups to Mercedes (what?!)!

To be honest, it is about what I would have expected. The overly calculating M5 loses out to the arguably more "natural" S6 and E63. However it appears as though the early issues with the S6 have been sorted just a bit, as C/D wasn't to pleased with the preproduction model tested in the fall (Clarkson as I recall wasn't either).

However, I think I'd rather have the CLS63 myself, but thats just me being picky...

(And something else interesting to consider: If the STS-V would have been there, would it have been enough to beat the M5, or would it have finished last? In the last C/D comparo with the STS-V, CLS55, and M5, the Caddy beat-out the Mercedes, and came up just a bit short to the M5...)
 
Toronado
That sounds about right. The new engine in the E is an unstoppable piece.
M5 gets owned in fun to drive. :lol:
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such a great piece, its actually slower than its predecessor.👍

the new M5 wasn't built to have a manual gearbox, thats why it looses in this test...
 
vladimir
such a great piece, its actually slower than its predecessor.👍
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I'm sure thats the reason. Despite being .4 seconds faster to 60, and .7 seconds faster to 100. You are totally right. :rolleyes:
vladimir
the new M5 wasn't built to have a manual gearbox, thats why it looses in this test...
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Is that the same reason the A6 and E350 both beat the BMW 530i in May of last year in Car and Driver? Because I could have sworn that they were both just better cars than the E60.
 
Toronado
Is that the same reason the A6 and E350 both beat the BMW 530i in May of last year in Car and Driver? Because I could have sworn that they were both just better cars than the E60.
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Actually, it was because CaD docked it for being the slowest-accelerating car in the group, they didn't like the manumatic transmission, and they have a grudge against iDrive. They put a $55,000 price cap on the test and were forced to get the straight-6 instead of the V8...only a few months before the newer, more powerful 3.0L came out, too.

Otherwise, they praised it for being the lightest and having the great handling and balance BMW is known for, and wished they could have gone for the V8 instead. It's all here if you don't believe me.

I don't know about you, but I like relatively light (for a mid-size luxosedan) RWD cars that handle well, even if they can't hit 60 mph in less than 7 seconds (le gasp! You might as well walk everywhere! </sarcasm>). I also happen to like the way the E60 looks. Add to that list that I'm a BMW guy anyway and only hate one thing about iDrive (not being able to get the navigation woman to shut up), and the E60, to me, is the better car. ;)




As for the test that this topic refers to, well, I can't complain. With the problems that this new 6-speed model has introduced, it rightly deserves that last-place finish. If it wasn't for the "product liability issues" and the undefeatable traction/stability control (something I abhor), the manual M5 could have been even better than the SMG-equipped one. :indiff:
 
I just have such a hard time understanding how BMW could have dropped the ball so bad with this car. Considering how great the E39-based M5 was (still my favorite BMW probably ever), this should have been everything +10... As a company known for sports sedans, this simply sucks. It is slower all the way around than the SMG car, a strange match for the rest of the BMW lineup, as the manuals are usually the faster models.

...I'm a purist in the regard that I would much rather shift my own gears that wait for an automatic or SMG to operate the changes (VAG's DSG and Ferrari's F1 setups are alright). However, this may be one of the few cars in which it would make more sense to get the computer-controlled transmission.

What makes even less sense is that BMW did this for US, and by US I mean Americans. We pissed and moaned about the car, and being that America is the largest market for BMW, they gave us what we want. What exactly were the Germans thinking when they worked on this car?

Clarkson is right. We need to watch out for those pesky Germans. We're about 40 years overdue for a race towards Poland, and with our slower M5s, well, we may have to rely on Cadillac-power once again to stop the Blitz!
 
Wasn't the engine made for auto/SMG? Maybe that can explain why it doesn't match up well with manual. Though, the team should have worked harder to make the transmission and engine compatible. They're getting lazy.
 
the v10 was never intended to go with a manual...BMW never intended to sell the M5 with a manual, they only did it because some people asked for it.

can you imagine merc bringing out an e63 with a manual because people ask for it?
 
I know. But consumer demands drive the economy, and BMW tried to respond to the pressure. If they were going to do this, then they should have at least put some more work into it. I think its better to have a polished product with some delays rather than an unrefined product put on the market quickly.
 
vladimir
the v10 was never intended to go with a manual...BMW never intended to sell the M5 with a manual, they only did it because some people asked for it.

can you imagine merc bringing out an e63 with a manual because people ask for it?
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I thought the E63 is available in manual, which was the whole point of stickin a less torquey engine in it.
 
vladimir
can you imagine merc bringing out an e63 with a manual because people ask for it?
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We've been asking for it in America for years and years and years, and there hasn't been anything done on the side of Mercedes/AMG. Their cars could be better with the manual, but I think they have done a pretty darn good job sorting out the issues with an automatic, as the 7G-TRONIC is a pretty good setup that knows what to do, and when to do it.

...But here in America, we love our manual transmissions in sporting automobiles. The love for F1 isn't very strong, so we would much rather row the gears ourselves, no matter how much "faster" an SMG or DSG transmission may be...
 
YSSMAN
We've been asking for it in America for years and years and years, and there hasn't been anything done on the side of Mercedes/AMG. Their cars could be better with the manual, but I think they have done a pretty darn good job sorting out the issues with an automatic, as the 7G-TRONIC is a pretty good setup that knows what to do, and when to do it.

...But here in America, we love our manual transmissions in sporting automobiles. The love for F1 isn't very strong, so we would much rather row the gears ourselves, no matter how much "faster" an SMG or DSG transmission may be...
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I know I prefer a good ol' manual with a clutch and all, but the DSG really isn't bad at all. It's the SMG's inability to work well in everyday conditions that kills it.

One thing is for certain, though -- I will never, ever buy a car with a torque converter. Maybe a truck meant for towing or 4x4ing, but never a car.
 
Poverty
1st. MB E63
2nd. Audi S6
3RD BMW M5
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My take on why? Lack of soul. Mercedes has finally gone all out and produced an engine that belongs in a real supercar. Sounds great, revs like a demon, and seems like it would kill someone for an opportunity to produce more power. Audi has finally figured out how to make fun cars again (RS4, new TT, and anything with a V10). And then there's the V10. Did I mention the ten-cylinder engine?

BMW, on the other hand, has a fantastic engine under the hood of what is a rather ordinary mid-size BMW. Now there's nothing wrong with a BMW; I'm sure they all drive well. But I think driver expectations have a lot to do with one's opinion on a car. Show up at a BMW dealership, and you can pretty much get a stereotypical BMW (no bad thing, remember). Show up at a Mercedes looking at a replacement for your E55, and the E63 is going to blow you away. It (and the S6) is so different from before that you can't help but be won over by it.

I think BMW is finally becoming a victim of their own success. They are going to have to work hard to beat themselves with the V8 M3.
 
BMW are not gonna have it easy in the next following years. I cant see their sales climbing much higher TBH due to increased competition from MB and audi. As soon as the V8 M3 is released the new C63 AMG will be hot on its toes, as MB and AMG have a history of releasing a AMG version of each car pretty quickly after the standard car has been introduced, and the C63 has been spied already. Then BMW also have to worry about the new RS6, RS5, TT-RS, R4 and eventually the RS4 aswell. (the new A4 is being introduced at the frankfurt motorshow, the A5 at geneva according to my sources)

So as you can see with the new models being introduced, and with MB and Audi out for BMW blood, and that of the 3er specifically they will be having a very hard time. Im sure MB and Audi can beat BMW for certain in every category apart from driving dynamics, which will be a deciding factor, but if the two manufacturers can match it, they will be onto a winner.
 
Wolfe
I know I prefer a good ol' manual with a clutch and all, but the DSG really isn't bad at all. It's the SMG's inability to work well in everyday conditions that kills it.
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IMO, Volkswagen's DSG and Ferrari's F1 transmissions are O.K. by me, but I think in most cases I would much rather row the gears myself. Call me crazy, but it not only saves you money (what, $10K in the Ferrari?), but also increases the involvement with the car.

To be frank, it isn't like having either is the end of the world, as they are both wonderful transmissions... But those are decisions that I would have to think long and hard about if I was to be ordering a new GTI. The DSG is just so damn good at almost everything, its like choosing which one of your kids should die first. But I don't have any kids, so that makes it even harder...
 
YSSMAN
What makes even less sense is that BMW did this for US, and by US I mean Americans. We pissed and moaned about the car, and being that America is the largest market for BMW, they gave us what we want. What exactly were the Germans thinking when they worked on this car?
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Except BMW didn't give us what we wanted. Who the hell wants an M5 with DSC that can NEVER be switched off?

Let's face it; the M5/6 (meaning M5 w/6speed) deserved to get owned. With DSC intervening all the time, there's simply no way to enjoy the car. C&D was very clear on that.

DSC is nice when you're driving your mother around on a rainy day.

DSC is the worst thing imaginable when you actually want to drive the car.

I guess I'm as brand loyalist to BMW as you can get, being on my 5th one. And if they started making cars where DSC couldn't be turned off, I would never buy one again.

So with one fell swoop, BMW has pretty much let its lawyers (no doubt responsible for this regretable decision) neuter its flagship sedan. "Hmmm. Let's take the one indisputable advatange we have over all our competitors and lose it." Nice going. 👎

The M5/SMG7 would have faired much better in this comparo. Maybe not for the win, but it would have at least given a decent showing.


M
 
///M-Spec
Except BMW didn't give us what we wanted. Who the hell wants an M5 with DSC that can NEVER be switched off?

Let's face it; the M5/6 (meaning M5 w/6speed) deserved to get owned. With DSC intervening all the time, there's simply no way to enjoy the car. C&D was very clear on that.

DSC is nice when you're driving your mother around on a rainy day.

DSC is the worst thing imaginable when you actually want to drive the car.

I guess I'm as brand loyalist to BMW as you can get, being on my 5th one. And if they started making cars where DSC couldn't be turned off, I would never buy one again.

So with one fell swoop, BMW has pretty much let its lawyers (no doubt responsible for this regretable decision) neuter its flagship sedan. "Hmmm. Let's take the one indisputable advatange we have over all our competitors and lose it." Nice going. 👎

The M5/SMG7 would have faired much better in this comparo. Maybe not for the win, but it would have at least given a decent showing.


M
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Agreed on all fronts. 👍

However, and I'm sure you agree, I doubt this is a sign of things to come (DSC that can't be turned off on all models). It appears to be merely an electronic band-aid intended to mask poor planning and/or rushed development.
 
YSSMAN
IMO, Volkswagen's DSG and Ferrari's F1 transmissions are O.K. by me, but I think in most cases I would much rather row the gears myself. Call me crazy, but it not only saves you money (what, $10K in the Ferrari?), but also increases the involvement with the car.
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That depends on what level of involvement you want with your car. Want to get out front to start it every time? Ford Model A comin' at ya. Want to manually adjust the height of your headlights? Subaru Impreza STI should do fine. Each car is marketed for a specific image. BMW seems to be aiming to be the most technologically advanced when it comes to their M division: latest tech in their engine, coolest electronics for their drivetrain & suspension, and the fastest way to change gears (without impinging on VAG's DSG patents).

Quite honestly, I think SMG totally fits BMW. I think Porsche could benefit from it, too, with the GT3/GT3-RS. Both are companies that excel at road racing with near-stock cars, and it makes sense for both to bring track-influenced technology to their road cars. Isn't that what just about all sports car companies have done to gain their reputation in the first place? I can understand the desire for the option not to have these new-fangled thingamaboberts, but I think that it's counter to the idea of the car to begin with. When you buy an Enzo, which reeks of F1-derived ideas, isn't a manual gearbox a bit archaic?
 
Side Note: Porsche has their own version of VAG's DSG showing up in 2008 on the 911, etc to replace the old-school Triptronic automatics.

On Topic: Certainly I can see where an F1-derived transmission would be advantageous to an "F1-inspired" model from any company. But given that F1 isn't the bread-and-butter sport for the entire world, that doesn't automatically make the transmissions alright either. I'd agree that the Enzo simply wouldn't have felt "right" without the F1 gearbox, but the M5 should have had a manual from the get-go, "F1-inspired V10" or not.

Call me a backwards thinking, trucker hat wearing, PBR drinking, NASCAR watching redneck, but I'll take the old stick any day, particularly in big ol' "muscle cars" and "muscle sedans." It is part of the reason why Americans have complained so much about the lack of a manual option in the AMG lineup, the SRT lineup, etc. The whole notion of involvement, and the fact that the driver will always know better than the computer is what makes it appealing.

...It would be like putting an automatic in a Miata...

Oh wait, you can already do that...
 
Wolfe
However, and I'm sure you agree, I doubt this is a sign of things to come (DSC that can't be turned off on all models). It appears to be merely an electronic band-aid intended to mask poor planning and/or rushed development.
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Yes, I agree 100%. My rant about not buying another BMW again was just an illustration of just how serious an offense I consider the none-off DSC, NOT to show my belief this will start happening across the model range.

YSSMAN
...the M5 should have had a manual from the get-go, "F1-inspired V10" or not.
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The V10 really needs a close ratio box in order to get the most out of it. It is a fairly peaky motor. I haven't done the math on the 6 speed ratios, but I'd wager having only 6 gears instead of 7 gives the tranny insufficient coverage.

Thus, the decision to go SMG was partly because a 7-speed manual pattern would cause a super complicated linkage that would be impractical to produce, let alone use.


M
 
I do realize how peaky the V10 is in the M5, and I do see where the issues of "only" six cogs could cause some problems. BMW's whole motivation with the car is a bit odd, because the car can travel north of 200 MPH unlimited, but is limited to 155 MPH, and runs through the gears rather quickly to get there.

...Lets see if I can find the ratios...

Ahh, here we are! Courtesy of C/D magazine:

1st: 3.99
2nd: 2.65
3rd: 1.81
4th: 1.39
5th: 1.16
6th: 1.00
7th: 0.83

Axle ratio: 3.62

...So yeah, there could be some serious issues created by trying to get rid of a cog, but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable...

Obviously the Corvette Z06 is a completely different beast, but for comparison, I'll post the cogs from her:

1st: 2.66
2nd: 1.78
3rd: 1.30
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.74
6th: 0.50

Axle Ratio: 3.42

...I'm going to have to do some searching, but I'm going to look for the arrangement in the F430. That theoretically would be enough for the M5, at least I would think so, so just for comparison, it may be fun...

(But I have to find it first)
 

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