2007 International Auto Show in Detroit

Digital-Nitrate

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So the 2007 International Auto Show in Detroit just came to a close this weekend (Jan 7-21) and I was curious what others thought about it.

What were your favorites, disappointments, surprises, etc.

If you have pics to share, please do!

From Wikipedia:

(* = North American introduction)


Production Car Introductions:
Code:
2008	Audi Q7 TDi 
2007	BMW 3 Series convertible 
2008	Cadillac CTS 
____ *	Changfeng Liebao + other truck/SUV models
2008	Chevrolet Equinox Sport 
2008	Chevrolet Malibu 
2008	Chrysler Town and Country 
2008	Dodge Avenger 
2008	Dodge Grand Caravan 
2008	Dodge Magnum 
2008	Dodge Viper SRT-10 
2008	Ford Five Hundred 
2008	Ford Focus 
2007 *	Hyundai Veracruz
2008 *	Infiniti QX56 [i](facelift)[/i]
2008	Lexus IS-F 
2007	Maserati Quattroporte Automatica 
2008	Mazda Tribute HEV 
2007 *	MINI Cooper
2007	MINI Sidewalk 
2008	Mitsubishi Lancer 
2008	Nissan Rogue 
2008	Pontiac G6 GXP 
2008	Pontiac Torrent GXP 
2008	Porsche Cayenne 
2008	Rolls-Royce Phantom Drophead Coupé 
2007	Scion tC RS 3.0 [i]("Blizzard Pearl")[/i] 
2008 *	Smart Fortwo
2008	Subaru Legacy 
2008	Subaru Outback 
2007	Toyota Tundra CrewMax


Concept Car Introductions:
Code:
	Acura Advanced Sports Car concept 
*	Audi Q7 V12 TDI concept
	Chevrolet Camaro Convertible concept 
*	Chevrolet T2X
	Chevrolet Volt 
*	Chevrolet WTCC
	Chrysler Nassau 
	Ford Airstream 
	Ford Interceptor 
*	Holden Efijy 
	Honda Accord Coupe concept 
	Jaguar C-XF [i](Concept XF)[/i]
	Jeep Trailhawk 
	Kia Kue 
	Lexus LF-A [i](updated concept)[/i]
	Lincoln MKR concept 
	Mazda Ryuga 
	Mercedes-Benz GL420 Bluetec 
	Mercedes-Benz Ocean Drive 
	Mitsubishi Prototype-X [i](Lancer Evolution Prototype)[/i] 
	Nissan Bevel 
*	Opel Antara GTC
*	Saab Aero-X
	Saab 9-3 BioPower Hybrid concept 
	Suzuki XL-7 Flix 
	Toyota FT-HS Hybrid Sports concept 
	Volvo XC60 concept


Unfortunately, I was not able to attend, but I did catch NBC's coverage of the show, which was shown in full glorious 1080HD.

BTW: I thought Bill Weber, Phil LeBeau, Marty Snide, and Lindsay Czarniak all did a great job on that broadcast.
 
Very little on these lists interest me. A lot of it (Cayenne, QX56, 3-series vert, Q7 TDi, Pontiacs) is more of the same; some of it has already been discussed in the Auto News thread. Obviously by far the most important introduction here is the Chrysler minivans. I can't wait to start seeing them on the road. America will dominate again!

What the hell is a Nissan Rogue?

EDIT: just for laughs, I wanted to re-iterate the fact that Nissan is now located in Tennessee.

:lol:

Tennessee!!!

:lol:
 
I think all-in-all for NAIAS this year, I was a little disappointed. Coming off of 2006, a year that had debuts of Camaros, Challengers, all-new sedans and sports cars to 2007 which mainly consisted of important, but not necessarily spectacular cars and trucks from every manufacturer. That isn't to say that 2007 show was a bust, there were plenty of important debuts, particularly for the American car companies that are looking to dig themselves out of the wholes they have created over the past 30 years.

So, what wins? Well, it is kinda tough to call everything a winner or a loser I suppose without necessarily seeing it in person (Feb. 10 I'm going to Chicago to see most of the same cars, plus a few others). I'll dish out some awards here, give an explanation or two, and feel free to debate:

- Best Asian Debut: On the whole, Japanese and Korean automakers had pretty dissapointing showings when it came to new production models in 2007. Of all the examples there, I'd generally give an overwhelming "meh," however I think the title would have to go to the Hyundai Veracruz. It is showing once again that Hyundai is hell-bent on toping Toyota and Honda by doing what they did 20 years ago, and the Veracruz is looking to be a solid contender in the growing field of mid-size crossovers. I'm interested in seeing it in person, as Hyundai has been boosting my expectations year after year.

- Best European Debut: This award easily goes to the Smart ForTwo. The car took Detroit by storm and has managed to create quite a lot of buzz here in America among not only the targeted younger folks, but older ones as well. We certainly are not in a fuel crunch at the moment, but after learning lessons in 2005 and 2006, Americans are looking for a better alternative. Certainly the car isn't anything new throughout most of the world, but it may prove to be one of the biggest brand/model debuts in decades.

- Best American Debut: Lets put it this way. There were two big winners in my book from General Motors, and it was very hard to pick just one for this contest. On the one hand you have a model that is looking not only to solidify itself in the American market, but also establish itself and a brand in Europe... And on the other a model looking to return the American car to serious contention against the Japanese and European entry-level sedans. In the end, I feel like I'm going to have to go with the Cadillac CTS, simply because it spells out big things for GM, and generally is showing the way for the entire company through primarily one car. Build quality is vastly improved, engine and transmission technology is reaching beyond the traditional GM setups, and overall the car is looking to go head-to-head with some of the worlds greatest cars, and at least stands some sort of relevant chance in defeating them. Sure, the Chevrolet Malibu deserves all the attention it can get, but the Cadillac has it where it counts.

- Best Asian Concept Car: Thankfully the Japanese and Koreans came through full-force with concept cars this year. Although there were many debuts that were deemed important no-less, I must give the nod to the Honda Accord Coupe Concept. The car certainly shows that Honda wants to have a styling edge once again, and that they are still interested in building Accord Coupes for Americans. The overall look of the car is rather attractive, a bit like a squared-off Ford Mondeo of sorts. I'm hoping for huge sporting potential with the car, and maybe once again, we'll see a bit of the Prelude coming through once again. But remember this is a "concept".

- Best European Concept Car: This award goes pretty easily to the Jaguar C-XF. Alike the Accord, the C-XF is demonstrating a styling change for the brand on the whole. Jaguar often is known for its rather average design themes, classic at best, and although I love the look of most of their cars, the S-Type that the XF will replace isn't necessarily a looker anymore. With the 420 BHP Supercharged 4.2L V8, rear-wheel-drive, and XK-inspired design themes, the concept gives way to a production model that should not only be sexy, but rather fast as well. The thought of Jaguar building driver's cars again is very exciting indeed...

- Best American Concept Car: Without question this one goes to the Ford Interceptor simply because it shows that someone at Ford is listening to what people want. Does that mean they did everything right? Well, not exactly, but it is the sole fact that the car exists, can be made, and very well could is what gives me hope for this concept. Sure it is based on the Mustang and they did include the live-rear-axle, but can you not say that you don't want the return of a rear-wheel-drive Ford sedan that is worth a damn (sorry Crown Vic, you're getting old)? It also gives us a better idea of what Ford wants to do with their styling department, and although I'm a bit wishy-washy on some of the new "Gillette" models, this one isn't too bad.

- Best In Show: I think simply in terms of importance we wouldn't have to look any further than the Chevrolet Volt concept. As a company (GM) that is routinely scrutinized for its poor fuel economy with its larger vehicles, they have proven that a new car can be a solution for the growing problem of fuel consumption around the world. The outrageous fuel economy is enough to make most people happy, and the adaptability of the car between gasoline, bio-fuel, and even hydrogen shows that GM is thinking ahead. Most people are excited over the plug-in-hybrids, and to say the least I'm not a fan of hybrids at all, however the fact that it can run solely on electric power for 40-60 miles with a six-hour charge is going to be something many people are interested in. However being realistic for a moment, don't be surprised if we are looking at design themes of the next Cobalt, but you didn't hear that from me...

*And now for the awards for stuff that was too-late, too-little, or most of us just didn't care*

- In the "Okay We Get It!" Category: In a long line of prototypes, "concepts," and production models, The Mitsubishi Prototype-X continues to be one of those things where you just nod your head in agreement, since we have been seeing the same car for the last two years. We get it Mitsubishi. There is a new Evolution coming out. You just released a new one. Great! Do you have to keep reminding us?

- In the "Why oh Why do We Need This?" Category: This one is turning out to be a split-decision. In a sure sign that GM hasn't completely changed, they manged to show off both the Chevrolet Equinox Sport and Pontiac Torrent GXP, running exactly the same equipement, offering the same levels of performance, for about a thousand dollars difference. Yes, I love the LY7 V6 and the 5-speed automatic that is generally associated with it, but with the last of the Lambada vehicles on the way-out, why didn't GM just save the money and give us a GMT960 badged as a Chevrolet to replace the Trail Blazer? Is that too hard to ask? Could you give a re-done VUE/Antara to Pontiac and call it a Vibe while you're at it? The good news is that GM didn't call the Equinox an "SS," so someone over there must have figured out what the badge means after all...

- In the "We Saw it Coming A Million Miles Away" Category: In no big surprise, GM hit us with the Pontiac G6 GXP and the racer version, the Pontiac GXP.R. As a car that we've known about since, what, the 2005 SEMA show, there weren't many surprises here. The good news is that it is available, it should be pretty quick, but sadly only comes with an automatic transmission. Poop. But hey, that GXP.R makes its debut on Saturday in the Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona, and apparently she should do well...

- Worst In Show: Did you expect anything less than the Changfeng Liebao here? When are the Chinese going to realize that Americans don't want to buy your Commie Cars any time soon? If they're built anything like the toys in our Happy Meals, we'll know to stay clear of them. I bet Mao is spinning in his grave seeing how disgraceful these things are. Absolute garbage.

...So yeah, thats Detroit 2007!
 
Worst In Show: Did you expect anything less than the Changfeng Liebao here? When are the Chinese going to realize that Americans don't want to buy your Commie Cars any time soon?

lol YSS with the best quote ever! If I hadn't given you +rep already I'd give you another point.
 
Don't see the LP640 Roadster on there which has the Detroit show as its next stop, and is a new introduction to the N. American market.
 
- Best American Debut: Lets put it this way. There were two big winners in my book from General Motors, and it was very hard to pick just one for this contest. On the one hand you have a model that is looking not only to solidify itself in the American market, but also establish itself and a brand in Europe... And on the other a model looking to return the American car to serious contention against the Japanese and European entry-level sedans. In the end, I feel like I'm going to have to go with the Cadillac CTS, simply because it spells out big things for GM, and generally is showing the way for the entire company through primarily one car. Build quality is vastly improved, engine and transmission technology is reaching beyond the traditional GM setups, and overall the car is looking to go head-to-head with some of the worlds greatest cars, and at least stands some sort of relevant chance in defeating them. Sure, the Chevrolet Malibu deserves all the attention it can get, but the Cadillac has it where it counts.

So wait.

The Chrysler minivans, unequivocally the most important Chrysler product ever, debut, and you give this aware to some also-ran premium sedan, saying it barely edged out an also-ran midsize sedan? That's about as smart as moving a major car company to Tennessee. I'd study the list of debuts again.
 
So you're telling me that you buy into the notion that somehow these minivans are going to save Chrysler? Two minivans co-developed with Volkswagen aren't going to save the company the billions of dollars they are losing per year due to over-inflated inventories, hostile dealer networks, poor product planning (you hear me Jeep Commander?), and generally sub-par product quality. If people don't like these vans, may God have mercy upon the heads of those at Chrysler. What else do they have left? The Caliber? The LX triplets? There isn't much left with Ford and GM bringing in their A-Game in so many of those segments.

Don't get me wrong, they are important products. In my opinion, they are actually really neat vehicles with a lot of great ideas baked inside. But when it comes down to it, people aren't going to identify the 2007 NAIAS by the Chrysler Town and Country or Dodge Grand Caravan, they are more likely to look towards the cars that make a difference not only in this country, but around the world.

...Hence the reason why I chose the Cadillac. Certainly this is more of an opinion-based thread, and I completely respect yours as I can see where you're coming from, but for me the vans just don't cut it. The CTS will establish a new standard in American entry-level luxury models, and may even surprise a few Europeans and Japanese ones in the process. The new direct-injection version of the LY7 V6 shows that GM is indeed interested in new technologies, and they indeed want to be a part of the 300 BHP club already occupied by the BMW 335i, Lexus IS350, Mercedes C350, and Infiniti G35. Cadillac also hopes to push the car a bit harder in Europe, a fairly reasonable idea if the car is as good as it should be. Of course it will have to live up to higher standards to compete more actively, but strong and well-defined looks set it apart from the rest of the class, plenty of value will be packed in for the price, and I'd be willing to bet the drive will be more than enough fun for both younger and older buyers.
 
The new direct-injection version of the LY7 V6 shows that GM is indeed interested in new technologies, and they indeed want to be a part of the 300 BHP club already occupied by the BMW 335i, Lexus IS350, Mercedes C350, and Infiniti G35.

You know what's scary? The Mazdaspeed6. It may "only" have 274bhp but its AWD drivetrain and less weight make it quite a match for that "300bhp" saloon club. Granted the interior luxury is much higher in the BMW, Merc, Lexus, and Infiniti but performance wise I doubt one would care about having less than 300bhp if you are in the Mazdaspeed6. Oh and the interior in the 6 is MUCH nice than the GM I think.
 
So you're telling me that you buy into the notion that somehow these minivans are going to save Chrysler?

When did I say that they'd save Chrysler? And why do people all of a sudden feel that Chrysler needs saving? Given Chrysler's current product line, I don't see any necessity over there that's not felt ten times worth by Ford or General Motors.

All I'm saying is they're the most important vehicles at the NAIAS this year. Any time a product that iconic is released, it's important. The CTS is not iconic, and the Malibu is just decrepit. The new Chrysler minivans will populate our roads for years to come. It's a huge product release.

...Hence the reason why I chose the Cadillac. Certainly this is more of an opinion-based thread, and I completely respect yours as I can see where you're coming from, but for me the vans just don't cut it. The CTS will establish a new standard in American entry-level luxury models,

I've been hearing this for decades, among varying classes of car: the Allante would be a world-class convertible; the Reatta would be a drivers' car; the Catera would be a world-class sedan. None of that came true. Even the CTS wasn't the 3-series beater it could have been. The car's still too long, it doesn't offer enough body styles or engine choices, it hasn't got the right transmissions, and it's lacking an image. The Chrysler minivans have all those things.

JCE
You know what's scary? The Mazdaspeed6. It may "only" have 274bhp but its AWD drivetrain and less weight make it quite a match for that "300bhp" saloon club. Granted the interior luxury is much higher in the BMW, Merc, Lexus, and Infiniti but performance wise I doubt one would care about having less than 300bhp if you are in the Mazdaspeed6.

It's manual-only - a huge drawback for the people in that segment. Its lack of a six-cylinder engine and lack of a premium badge are killers too.
 
Oh and the interior in the 6 is MUCH nice than the GM I think.

Hmmm. I'm going to have to use the coach's challenge on that one. I've been in more than a few Mazda 6s that really weren't any better than most of the cars out there today, and with GM's improved quality and plastics in cars like the Aura, Malibu, GMT960s and GMT900s, I'd say they are a bit beyond where the Mazda is. As for the Mazdaspeed 6, they should have put a bit more interior in the car for the price, especially when compared to the VW and Honda options out there. I think most of the younger buyers won't care a whole lot, but value-concious 30-somethings and up would certainly mind if they are getting a Mazda 3 interior at BMW 3-series pricing.
 
The manual point I can conceed, and only because Americans prefer automatics. But the lack of 6 cylinders shouldn't matter when it has more than enough passing power--and the fact that the 0-60mph in the Mazdaspeed6 is actually faster than most if--not all of that aformentioned list. AND, I predict the track performance of that Mazda would be around the same if not slighty better due to the AWD.

The premium badge thing is also an American preference I think...that is the number one reason why brand names Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus even EXSIST is because Americans can't see paying over a certain price for "just any ol' Honda". You have to remember the early 1990's America when these brands were formed was alot less open-minded than the 2007 America (albeit not by much). They don't want to try and explain that their Toyota Aristo (Lexus GS) really does compete with the BMW 3-series. Granted Europe has the same thing but, I can't see it being as rabid as it is in the US. The Jaguar X-Type in Europe for instance is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. For the most part it is considered as an expensive Ford Modeo with slightly more interior "toys". In America the Jaguar X-Type is considered a "proper" Jaguar...which it isn't.

Hmmm. I'm going to have to use the coach's challenge on that one. I've been in more than a few Mazda 6s that really weren't any better than most of the cars out there today, and with GM's improved quality and plastics in cars like the Aura, Malibu, GMT960s and GMT900s, I'd say they are a bit beyond where the Mazda is. As for the Mazdaspeed 6, they should have put a bit more interior in the car for the price, especially when compared to the VW and Honda options out there. I think most of the younger buyers won't care a whole lot, but value-concious 30-somethings and up would certainly mind if they are getting a Mazda 3 interior at BMW 3-series pricing.

Personal preference and opinion on the interior. That's what I believe.
 
And why do people all of a sudden feel that Chrysler needs saving? Given Chrysler's current product line, I don't see any necessity over there that's not felt ten times worth by Ford or General Motors.

People have been worried here in Michigan for a while. Dealer lots are overstocked, overflow lots are actually overflowing themselves, and dealers are in revolt because product isn't moving through. Chryslers problem has been that they are building more cars and trucks than people want to buy... And when the average lot time on a car like the Crossfire (among others) is floating around 300 days before sale, something is wrong. Chrysler recently started writing checks to dealers for $7000 per car, and it was up to the dealer how they wished to use it... You know its bad when in Michigan they are pushing brand-new 2006 Chrysler Town and Country vans, fully-loaded, for $16,000. Not to mention their 0% financing on top of that... Something is obviously going wrong at Chrysler, and nobody seems to be fixing it. Lets hope that something gets done in time before the LY cars arrive, along with the Avenger, etc. Otherwise we may not have anymore American vans to talk about...

All I'm saying is they're the most important vehicles at the NAIAS this year. Any time a product that iconic is released, it's important. The CTS is not iconic, and the Malibu is just decrepit. The new Chrysler minivans will populate our roads for years to come. It's a huge product release.

And I understand where you are coming from. But I don't seem them being as important as you do. Considering the fact that both Ford and GM have completely pulled-out of the minivan segment as of 2007, and rumors are suggesting that others may do the same (due mostly to the growing popularity of crossovers), people would have to begin to wonder just how important these vans will be to regular folks... If they are more interested in Outlooks, Edges, Highlanders, and CR-Vs, why is Chrysler ignoring the fact that they may need a crossover in the near-future?

...I'm not exactly sure why you would describe the all-new Malibu as "decrepit," as it's cousin the Aura just wiped the floor with the Chrysler Sebring. If Dodge doesn't bring their A-game with the Avenger, I'd suspect that the Malibu may do the same thing.

I've been hearing this for decades, among varying classes of car: the Allante would be a world-class convertible; the Reatta would be a drivers' car; the Catera would be a world-class sedan. None of that came true. Even the CTS wasn't the 3-series beater it could have been. The car's still too long, it doesn't offer enough body styles or engine choices, it hasn't got the right transmissions, and it's lacking an image. The Chrysler minivans have all those things.

I think you are neglecting to recognise that GM is a very different company as compared to what it was 10, 15, or 20 years ago with those varying cars. The Allente was a pretty well-respected car in it's time, but people weren't willing to pay that kind of money for a Cadillac, and for the most part, the competition was better.

The Reatta? You do realize that was a Buick right? Again, a car that was noteworthy in it's time, but may have been a bit too much for the Buick customer base. They were halfway decent cars, particularly with GM of the era, however by today's standards they aren't anything too special.

As for the Catera, it was a world-class car as a Holden, but not as a Cadillac. Part of that comes from the fact that Cadillac overestimated the buyers, stuck in sub-par engines, out-of-date transmissions, and suspensions that were far too soft. The Commodore was a great car, and the Catera could have been too, but things just didn't work out when GM-NA got their hands on it.

...However I believe you are underestimating the Sigma II CTS. The car's dimensions only increased in width and height, wheel-base is identical. Beyond that, they are using many of the Sigma I CTS-V pieces on the base versions of the CTS, which should make it a lively performer out of the box. On the issue of body-styles, GM is reportedly cooking-up a coupe and wagon variant to better compete against the 3-series in every category, and we should know more by the time the New York show rolls around this spring, if not, don't be surprised to see something at Frankfurt or Paris, or in GM's favorite European show, Geneva.

I do have to question your criticisms of the engine and transmission programs. Cadillac will be running the current version of the LY7 DOHC VVT V6 on the base version of the CTS, good for 258 BHP and 252 lb ft. A six-speed manual, presumably a modified version of the T56 called the M10 from the VE Holden Commodore will come standard, and the optional model will be the 6L50E automatic, similar in design to the well-regarded 6L80E found in the Corvette and Cadillac Escalade. There will also be an all-wheel-drive option available on the "standard" CTS, and will use the same six-speed automatic. The higher-powered version of the CTS will use a modified version of the LY7 that will produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 BHP and 250 lb ft, however SAE testing has yet to occur. The big deal is that it is done with direct-injection, and all of that power can indeed be had on regular 87-octane fuel. Yes, you read that right, 87-octane fuel. The car will have the same transmissions offered, however the all-wheel-drive version will not be available with the higher-output V6.

...So would you care to tell me how that isn't up to par with whats needed in the segment?

Comparing all that to a Chrysler product is pretty laughable. Their top model will have a 4.0L V6 producing a rather paltry 240 BHP, and although it is matched to a six-speed manual, I still don't trust Chrysler automatics unless they have a "Built in Germany" stamp on the outside. Simply put, they are prone to giving out, exploding, etc. So, please enlighten me how this Chrysler setup is better than that on the Cadillac, much less, better even than that on the new Chevrolet Malibu that uses a new high-output 2.4L with 164 BHP, and the 3.6L LY7 V6 with 252 BHP. Hmmm, Chrysler seems to be coming up short here...
 
People have been worried here in Michigan for a while.

I've heard about this, but I'm unsure. Sure, they make some dated products. But remember, Chrysler is still selling the hot 300. There's no replacement for sales, ffs.

And I understand where you are coming from. But I don't seem them being as important as you do. Considering the fact that both Ford and GM have completely pulled-out of the minivan segment as of 2007, and rumors are suggesting that others may do the same (due mostly to the growing popularity of crossovers), people would have to begin to wonder just how important these vans will be to regular folks...

I don't get it - do you not see the reason that Ford and General Motors pulled out of the segment? The tradeoff wasn't there - they knew they'd never unseat the three industry leaders unless they spent so much money that the project wouldn't be economically viable. However it is economically viable for Chrysler because they're one of the industry leaders. In fact, they're THE industry leader. You're acting like GM and Ford were building good products and they weren't making a profit. That just wasn't the case - the GM vans were truly pathetic, and the Fords weren't much better.

...I'm not exactly sure why you would describe the all-new Malibu as "decrepit," as it's cousin the Aura just wiped the floor with the Chrysler Sebring.

I'm going to go ahead and call the new Sebring the worst midsize sedan since the Saturn L300, and place the Aura second. Here's a word of advice to General Motors: next time, try.

The Reatta? You do realize that was a Buick right?

The CTS? You do realize that's a Cadillac, right?

Your mentality against Buicks is the same mentality that most of Cadillac's target CTS audience has against the CTS. That's why the average buyer age is about 10 years older than they want it to be.

...However I believe you are underestimating the Sigma II CTS. The car's dimensions only increased in width and height, wheel-base is identical.

My God, they INCREASED dimensions?!? And they want this thing to compete with the 3-series? Pathetic from Cadillac once again. The same guy who green-lighted that is probably the one who decided to move Nissan to Tennessee.

I do have to question your criticisms of the engine and transmission programs. Cadillac will be running the current version of the LY7 DOHC VVT V6 on the base version of the CTS, good for 258 BHP and 252 lb ft. ... The higher-powered version of the CTS will use a modified version of the LY7 that will produce somewhere in the neighborhood of 300 BHP and 250 lb ft, however SAE testing has yet to occur.

Great. One engine with 260hp and 250lb-ft and another with 300hp and 250lb-ft. And presumably, knowing GM, it's going to be the same engine, just tuned differently.

Here's a few words of advice, Cadillac: the CTS is a 5-series competitor. Treat it as such, take a lesson from the Infiniti M, and give it a V6 with an optional V8. The STS should be a 7-series competitor. The DTS can stay as it is. And realise simply this: Cadillac still does not have the credibility to build a 3-series competitor.
 
*Note on the above post*

The Infiniti M is more than any Cadillac could ever HOPE to be with the CTS. Even the VQ35 V6 is quite powerful enough to haul that car around quickly.

*We now resume our normal bantering*
 
I'm in no way going to accuse the M of being anything short of spectacular, however I think you are neglecting to recognize that the CTS is a competitor for the G35, not the M35. For a moment, shall we compare the sizes of the CTS' competitors?

Length:

Cadillac CTS: 190.1 in.
Acura TL: 189.8 in.
BMW 3: 178.2 in.
Infiniti G35: 187 in.
Mercedes C-Class: 178.4 in.

Width:
Cadillac CTS: 70.6 in.
Acura TL: 72.2 in.
BMW 3: 71.5 in.
Infiniti G35: 69.8 in.
Mercedes C-Class: 68 in.

Height:

Cadillac CTS: 56.7 in.
Acura TL: 56.7 in.
BMW 3: 55.9 in.
Infiniti G35: 57.2 in.
Mercedes C-Class: 55.6 in.

Weight:

Cadillac CTS: 3509 lbs.
Acura TL: 3559 lbs.
BMW 3: 3593 lbs.
Infiniti G35: 3532 lbs.
Mercedes C-Class: 3450 lbs.

Wheelbase:

Cadillac CTS: 113.4 in.
Acura TL: 107.9 in.
BMW 3: 108.7 in.
Infiniti G35: 112.2 in.
Mercedes C-Class: 106.9 in.

...Now, given the few marginal increases for the Sigma II CTS dimensionally, plus the added power and improved dynamics overall, the next-gen CTS should be a greater competitor than it ever was before. Of course we can bicker all we want, but given that there are only CTS prototypes driving about, it is hard to get any solid facts down on the table against the competition. Simply put, GM can't afford to screw this one up, and they know it. I doubt they have, and thereby I believe this car will do well it its segment. Will it wipe the floor with the "Standard of the World" 3-series? I doubt it. Will it be able to beat the G35 on value? Probably not. What Cadillac will offer is a balance between the assorted models in the category, probably placing itself between the G35 and C-class in terms of performance.

---

BTW: I do find it funny that this has been a three-man thread for the most part...
 
Who would of thought the Merc was the leanest of the choices? Oh and you can't really put the TL into this arguement due to a lack of power (just like the Mazdaspeed6 is disqualified). It doesn't get close to 300bhp...and *gasp* its FWD. The Toyota Avalon is also disqualified due to the lack of power--still its the best Toyota saloon car I think. Granted the TL is a GREAT--let me say it again--GREAT car. But it just doesn't compete with the likes of the Germans and Nissan.

From those numbers you posted the BMW is slightly smaller followed by the Merc. The Infiniti is basically the same dimensions as the CTS Sigma I, but I submit without bias (and even admitted by you) that the G is a much better value (and faster). But again as you said YSS, the Sigma II is still in prototype form so we can't ASSUME what it can and cannot compete with yet.

As for the Sigma I (seeing as its still being sold) CAN'T compete with the likes of BMW, Merc, or Infiniti. Only the CTS-V has a hope of competing...and even then its a slim one.
 
What will be interesting is how the 2008 C-class will fit in with the others in terms of size. The photos make the car look a lot larger than what the current model is, although I doubt it is a significant jump over the current model.

...And I don't blame you for your position with the G-class. Both the G and the M are magnificent examples of a company doing its homework and managing to get it right not only on the first, but most importantly the second time. The car does have a several thousand dollar advantage over the Sigma I 3.6L models, however it will be interesting to see how the gap works with Sigma II. The big advantage that Cadillac has is that they can make last-minute adjustments before releasing the car based on the G35 and 335i, however it is hard to say how much of an influence they will have on the car overall.

...Sigma I is out the door, and it certainly is outclassed by all the new models out there today. If we would have had one of final versions when the car debuted in 2003, things could have been very different. But, we're hoping Cadillac has figured it out with the first-crack at the Sigma II. The CTS-V is undoubtedly the biggest winner of the Sigma I cars, and my guess is that will be much of the same with Sigma II. We'll find out in a few months, and I think Cadillac will have a lot to offer with the car against the competition.
 
Cadillac needs to think European and not American here. Which means I think they need to take a LOSS selling the CTS with more kit/toys. They need a middle of the lineup model with the V6 and a supercharger before the CTS-V. Tighten up the suspension a bit and tweak the steering and the CTS could compete with the Germans and Infiniti. I really do think Cadillac has an oppertunity here for a vast improvement...but GM/Cadillac may--as usual--ruin it. At least the interior is good this time around from the pictures. Again, I'll hold my final judgement of the CTS when I see and drive one in person.
 
What about the Nissan Skyline or did my eyes just skip over it or something and dose anyone know if Nissan has confirmed what engine what will be in it and how much power it will output, or is all of that still up in the air? This car is one of the cars that I cant wait to see on the road along with some more special edition Mustangs (the Bullitt and Boss)
 
Weight:

BMW 3: 3593 lbs.

I'm right, of course, about the size thing. All that matters is that GM knows it; I don't feel up to going back with you again. But this number is hilariously high. I dare you to quote a source, and a model.
 
I'm going to go ahead and call the new Sebring the worst midsize sedan since the Saturn L300, and place the Aura second. Here's a word of advice to General Motors: next time, try.
Which is especially odd, as there isn't really anything wrong with the new Sebring other than how it looks like ass. And the Aura, while still not up to the level that it needs to be, is still about as good as the new Camry.
M5Power
Here's a few words of advice, Cadillac: the CTS is a 5-series competitor. Treat it as such, take a lesson from the Infiniti M, and give it a V6 with an optional V8. The STS should be a 7-series competitor. The DTS can stay as it is. And realise simply this: Cadillac still does not have the credibility to build a 3-series competitor.
I'd have to agree. Ford half-assed the LS and got closer to the 3-series than GM has with the CTS. Cadillac needs the BLS to sell here.
 
What about the Nissan Skyline or did my eyes just skip over it or something and dose anyone know if Nissan has confirmed what engine what will be in it and how much power it will output, or is all of that still up in the air? This car is one of the cars that I cant wait to see on the road along with some more special edition Mustangs (the Bullitt and Boss)

The GT-R did not make a debut at Detroit 2007, however there is time for its debut at another show further down the road. Most sources say the car will have 450 BHP from a twin-turbocharged version of the 3.5L VQ V6 currently found in the 350Z, but it has never been "officially confirmed" by Nissan. The GT-R will in no way be making itself associated with Mustangs outside of the GT500, as the performance goals and I understand it have been set at Z06, 911 Turbo, and F430 standards. More realistically, the GT-R will probably compete against the Audi R8 and the Porsche Carrera S in most circumstances, however the most bitter rivalries will probably be between it and the Corvette Z51 and Z06 (depending on pricing).

M5Power
I'm right, of course, about the size thing. All that matters is that GM knows it; I don't feel up to going back with you again. But this number is hilariously high. I dare you to quote a source, and a model.

The numbers I pulled up were on a BMW 335i sedan from Edmunds.com. I flipped through the pages of Car and Driver and found that the 335i coupe weighs in at 3557 lbs, and their number for a 335i sedan clicks in at 3616 lb.

...So take your pick there. The car is a lot heavier than I thought too...

EDIT: BMW USA lists the 335i sedan at 3593 (3605 [probably with fuel]) lbs.
 
I'd have to agree. Ford half-assed the LS and got closer to the 3-series than GM has with the CTS. Cadillac needs the BLS to sell here.

[Lincoln LS love fest]You know what's sad? The LS is a spectacularly great car that just didn't have the right engine. I would buy one in a fraction of a second if it had either the 4.6L or at least some forced induction on either the V6 or tiny 3.9L V8--I just still might buy one before the year's out. If Ford puts the new 3.5L 265bhp V6 in the LS that will automatically put it direct competition with the Germans. I just can't say how fantastic the LS is. [/Lincoln LS love fest]
 
Ah, but the LS has passed on to greener pastures. Simply put, Ford dropped the ball with the car, and there really isn't a way around it. I was always dumbfounded by the fact that they never isntalled any of the Mustang-sourced "Go-Fast" parts. But they were probably deemed "too crude" for the Lincoln... But wait, didn't GM do the same stuff with the CTS-V? Hmmm. Too bad SVT never got their hands on the car. It really could have been something special.

But Ford has been smart enough to replace the car with the Zephyr/MKZ, and later on with the MKS. Hmmm. Someone needs to smack the folks at Lincoln around just a bit. Until they green-light the MKR, I don't have much hope for an LS successor.
 
What about the Nissan Skyline or did my eyes just skip over it or something and dose anyone know if Nissan has confirmed what engine what will be in it and how much power it will output, or is all of that still up in the air? This car is one of the cars that I cant wait to see on the road along with some more special edition Mustangs (the Bullitt and Boss)

You mean Nissan GTR, no Skylines are going to be released in the US (under the Skyline name anyway).
 
Which is especially odd, as there isn't really anything wrong with the new Sebring other than how it looks like ass. And the Aura, while still not up to the level that it needs to be, is still about as good as the new Camry.

I sort of agree.

I'd have to agree. Ford half-assed the LS and got closer to the 3-series than GM has with the CTS. Cadillac needs the BLS to sell here.

I definitely agree. Move it over here. Why not?
Hmm, so they cancelled the LS already? Bad move Ford...

Yeah, Ford made a huge mistake cancelling an invisible eight-year-old product.
 
Yeah, Ford made a huge mistake cancelling an invisible eight-year-old product.

Ford's the one that made it invisible. You can't tell me that it wasn't a good or even great car that Ford neglected. A few things here or there followed by a more complete advertising campaign would of made the LS much more popular. Especially considering the lack of American RWD (semi)luxury cars in the market.
 
Im going to have to say I was also dissapointed this year. I went the first sunday and there was a crap load of kids climbing on cars and trying to steal stuff. I made a kid put the airconditioning and radio buttons back on a car after he pulled them off while I was sitting in the drivers seat. WTF?

Each year theres a kid I yell at for doing something stupid. Last year was a kid that kicked the side of a gti.
 
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