How Would a More Realistic Racing-Oriented Model of GT Work?

There are people who believe that Gran Turismo is missed opportunity simply because it isn't a hardcore racing sim. I'm not here to debate that in this thread. Instead, I'm here to fantasize what a more realistic model would be like. A model in which it isn't so much about collecting and tuning cars. How much of Gran Turismo's current formula has to be altered to make a change in its design to make it better liked among others? The reason why I'm bringing this us is because I want to think of a model to rival anything of Codemasters or Simbin. I broken this up into two parts. Part One discusses why I think GT isn't the kind of pure racing sim that drives some fans away from this game (or at least doesn't get the full impression that this is a great game series. Part Two is my ideas as to how PD combats what the general gaming public-at-large to make the Gran Turismo series even more of "the greatest racing game series of the modern era."



PART 1 OF 2: Why Isn't the GT Series a Pure Racing Sim? And Does it Matter if it Was a Pure Racing Sim?

I took the criticism about the GT series not being a real racing simulator as opposed to being a real driving simulator. The criticism was that this game series isn't all that great since it isn't a pure racing sim like GTR2, ToCA Race Driver 3, and such. I define "pure racing sim" as any racing simulation that is more focused on every realistic aspect of racing from careers, signing up for certain teams, and that sort of thing. My reason as to why I think Gran Turismo isn't that kind of game is for a few reasons.

(1) Accessibility is my biggest reason. How many people do you know within the age range of 5 to 13 play this game to be a professional-type GT racer? The vast majority of casual gamers are just that- casual gamers. It's the reason why many cringe over license tests and long-distance races. Some people aren't really willing to traverse through a more realistic sim model in which you are basically living life as a racer in the game. I know I haven't been that kind of person myself. I play rFactor, which gives you a sort of racing history for each race you run. Imagine that in addition to a driver profile, you have everything from driving contracts to promotions and sponsorship hunts in GT. The Career Mode for generations of this game has been Simulation Mode and Gran Turismo Mode. It isn't as glamourous as if it was GTR, rFactor, or any other pure racing sim. However, it is a system you follow to monitor your progress throughout your racing life in GT games.

(2) Another reason why this isn't so much a pure racing game is (2a) Let's face it- too many One-Make races including officially-sanctioned events to really stay with one series for years and years. Then, (2b) I think it would be a lot to focus on driving and on time away from cars. Honestly. Who would really want to go through with being in the (hypothetical examples) Beetle Cup for 10 seasons and the Gran Turismo World Championship for perhaps five seasons or more? The ONLY game in which I've redone a lot of the races to get more content was the Ridge Racer series. Remember "Ridge Racer Type 4?" You had to keep placing in certain positions just to obtain 304 cars. Then, you had to win the four special cars consisting of all four difficulty levels to get the full 320 cars. Most people would say that racing a certain series gets old after a while. So you go race in other series to help increase your Percentage Complete. There's a goal to each series- win all the races including the championships. When you're done with one, go to another and continue to put forth a great effort. Giving a series realistic life extends playability overall and makes it seem like you're a real driver in a sim racing game. Funding for everything (including your driver contract to stay in that series) can be daunting. And I wouldn't want this to be a game of micromanagement. You come to race. Put the money aside until racing is done. There would have to be a way in which the series doesn't become too much of a pure sim to where its accessibility is jeaprodized.

Taking these issues into account, Gran Turismo doesn't have such a Career or Pure Sim mode. A switch to a more pure model could greatly modify the formula to which most gamers aren't really ready to assimilate to a much more advanced model.


Part two coming up!

PART 2: How Would a Pure Sim Model Work in Gran Turismo? Would it Work? How Does PD Get to That Level?

Having studied Season Modes of racing games and non-racing games, allow me to elaborate on how to make such a model work in addition to how a Career Mode would work in GT5.


--- Career Mode Model: How Would it Work? ---

You input your name to introduce yourself to the Gran Turismo universe. I think it would be great to have a maximum of 30 letters (including spaces and other characters) to input as much of your name as possible. You probably want to input your Callsign. For example, if your name is Firstname Lastname, your callsign could be your nickname or anything like that. I think in future races where driver changes and rally co-drivers come into play, it would be great to imagine making your own racing talent to go and start your own racing team. A pro racing model all would begin with clearing license tests. What would be different would be if you signed up for certain low-level races where you are loaned a car to compete for money. After clearing license tests, you look to join a certain racing series. Lower-level series aren't dependent on high-cost things like finding sponsors and contract options (including switching teams and retirement). Single Race series would require you to sign up for any available race you want to compete in. No agreement deals are required. Some may even charge fees for entry. You could simply compete in a series just to win the championship or be the champion. Another such option would be to simply remove Single Races and make every race a championship. Your car has to be able to hold for the duration of the championship including repairing damage and using winnings during off times to upgrade your car as long as it's within the general guidelines. Illegal mods for a championship in progress would likely result in error messages like "this change would violate the racing regulations. You cannot purchase this download at this time." Either that or "this change would violate the racing regulations. Your car will be excluded from competition and this season will end. Are you sure you still want this modification?" Win the championship, and you may opt to race another season featuring a randomized schedule, return to change teams, or leave the season you completed to compete in another series or whatever else you want to do. Your GT experience will allow you to be invited to race for teams in certain series whereas cars are made available for you. Invites could range from special one-day or one-weekend races at a club level, and go all the way to being invited to race the 24 Hours of Le Mans. You can still purchase and sell cars as normal. To take from Tourist Trophy, Works race cars can be given unique numbers by you. Winning a series with a Works Car gives you the option to carry a #1 driver plate on the car. I think this is only limited to customer race cars (or do you really want to drive the #6 Gulf Ford GT40 that won Le Mans with some other number?). True rally races would require you to find a co-driver to give you pace notes. Or let me put a twist on rally- imagine being able to be the co-driver in giving the driver the pace notes to help navigate the course properly. Endurance races that allow driver changes mean you really have to find or create drivers to compete. Unless... you want one person driving an extremely long race and being completely weak afterwards to race.

At the professional level, you can either be the team's best driver or the team leader. As the team leader, you have a lot of money to go and purchase cars. To be a three-driver team (for example), you have to go and sign drivers to your team for a certain amount of money. Want high-dollar talent? Go out and try to woo over a high-quality driver to your team. If you don't have the money, look for a less-talented driver to help mold into an invaluable asset to your team. Go look for sponsors who will look to help ease out any financial troubles that may plauge the team. You could be a professional team struggling to stay active. Your goal here would be to try to find ways to make money so that your team doesn't go bankrupt and out of business. And if you want to bring back an old team, you have to go and rebuild everything from the ground up to be a quality team. Some of your team's drivers (and even you) could be in some trouble ranging from law trouble to being a racing version of Terrell Owens. Do you discipline them? Do you dismiss that unruly racer? Do you impose a suspension for him/her?

All the different posibilities could make the Simulation/Gran Turismo Mode as two games in one. You greatly enhance replay value and extend play life with this model.


--- Would it Work? ---
Some say there's a lack of evolution of Gran Turismo. If PD takes this to heart and want to offer a brand new experience while staying true to what made Gran Turismo so great, then they should look into this deal by all means. I think you make everything as understandable as possible without making it into something other than a racing game. Racing is a sport, so making it look and feel like a sport enhances its value for a number of gamers. I think it would work. PD would have to convince me to make my profile in the game to race and enjoy the automotive culture.


--- How Should PD Get to This Level? ---
Take it slowly. Don't turn Gran Turismo into GTR or the ToCA Race Driver series. You didn't raise the series to be a hardcore sim game. Make the evolution slow. Just don't go and make the game ridiculously difficult so that even children don't stand a chance. Make it fun without making it frustrating. Frustration kills fun. Make the events interesting and meaningful. Sort of convince me that I'm a big star and that I have a chance to compete in a race many others may never get to compete in. Or think of this sports analogy- pretend I am the star player of a world-class soccer (football) team. Convince me that every game counts all the way to the World Cup. Make even a two-lap Entry-Level race at some mom-and-pop race track in some podunk (small and unimportant city) seem like a round of the Formula 1 World Championship. Infuse some character into every race so I feel like I have something to show racing fans that they will never forget. Even if I lose the race, I want to still be looked on like I've given my best effort as the fans appreciate all that I do. If they do all of this, then mission accomplished with this semi-pure race sim deal.



All of this came from my own mind and is completely true and real. It isn't like I got buzzed on something and all of a sudden think I'm a smart ass. I basically talked about what it would be like if the next Gran Turismo moved more in a direction towards a pure racing sim. Do you like my vision and ideas? What would you change? about my views of a more hardcore sim model?

I don't think that would work, it would be against the spirit of Gran Turismo. Since the beginning this series has been more about driving, collecting and tuning the cars than actual racing. Someone once said that GT is the Pokémon for car enthusiasts and that pretty much sums it up. Racing is only there to make money available to buy new cars, and naturally to receive cars as prizes.

- R -

I think the idea for creating a true professional racing sim would be great in Gran Turismo, but it won't be Gran Turismo as I know it. I love to collect and play with cars. I wouldn't want to have that disturbed by the professional racing thing at the same time.

That isn't to say I wouldn't enjoy a professional racing sim, but not as a part of or replacing Gran Turismo Mode. Part of Gran Tusimo's model is to have an Arcade Mode with quick races, time trials, two player races, etc. and then the Gran Turismo Mode based on being a car collector, being able to buy every car of every type.

So, why not add Professional Mode? You have to start by qualifying to earn a racing license and do small amateur leagues in small race cars and work your way up. Depending on how well you do will determine what kind of rookie offers you get for different series and teams. From here you get to choose what kind of racing you want to go into. Your choice limits you to those types of teams and those kinds of cars in a specific championship. Your career builds for a few seasons until you become an icon and then you get the option to jump series for occasional premier races and over time earn the money and prestige to start your own team. From here you can choose to drive or not, switch car affiliations, and move to a different racing league or after your team grows succesful have multiple teams in different leagues.

Pretty much it would be its own mode that allows old GT fans a chance to play what they liked or something new and can bring in new sim fans.

Foolkiller stole my post.

The huge attraction Gran Turismo has for the racing fiend is as said above, the extremely wide variety of racing available with countless cars, and the ability to collect cars as much as you want. Superimposing a Career or Professional Mode on top of this would be a disaster and it wouldn't work. That's why I proposed last year that GT5 expand with its own Career Mode alongside Arcade and GT Mode.

Making it separate would still give would-be racers quick access to the excellent gameplay and the much loved car collection aspects of GT, while Career/Pro Mode would be there for those of us who would like to live out Kazunori's vision of the virtual racing life. The game within a game aspect of Toca and possibly Forza 2, giving you access to many different levels of racing and allowing you to jump around to an extent as you wish while giving it that sim aspect of a career is a bit limited to me. It's fine, just as Gran Turismo has always been an excellent game series, but with the advanced capacity of the PS3, why not take it to a much higher level?

I like both Toca and GT/Forza models, but the scope of Gran Turismo makes it very well suited to giving us all three modes. GT5 may not have as many tracks as Toca 3, but it may, it could have more for all we know. Suppose GT5 has as many tracks as GT4 with the addition of Eiger from GT HD. That would give us a wide variety of courses to build a racing season out of, for whatever league you wanted. And each time you advanced a level, from the SCCA league where you had a modified 240SX or Mustang, to where you were sitting behind the wheel of a Formula 1 car, the track would have its own approach of racing associated with it, and its own challenges and fun. And you wouldn't be trapped in this situation either, as at any point, you could hop out and toot around in Arcade and GT Mode for entirely different styles of racing and your car collecting fetish. Options could make Career Mode as gamer friendly or professionally challenging as you wanted, so that if you liked, an unlucky wreck could end your race.

I think it would work well. Blu-ray has the space, and the Playstation 3 has the power. Those of us who made fantasy posts like yours have had enthusiastic support. I say go for it.

All this would be solved if you had really good AI racers , there reasons races get boring is you can easly win , they need to restucter they way you enter races (Classes , rules...ect )....ect , give more importance to tuning a car and driving and it would be perfect. If a race isn't easy you won't get bored from it . If you do a 100 lap race while you are leading by 10 sec each laps it gets boring , but if you have a wheel to wheel race you for 100 laps that would be much more interesting

I'd have to agree. The main reason why GT gets so boring, in my mind, is because of how out-right STUPID the AI is

When it gets itself stuck against a straight piece of wall, that should really tell you that something's wrong

Make them smarter. Make them more "aware" of what's going on. Don't just have them follow the same line and mindlessly plow into everything.

GT5 should be about doing what car enthusiast really wish they could do. I, as a car enthusiast, would love to take a car and gradually turn it into a race car, have fun racing with it, drive it on the 'Ring, etc. Then I would want to get a new one and do the same thing. But, I would also like to take any car and tune it as much as I like, in Arcade mode. I believe this would appeal to both sides; the people who want to work on one car at a time and earn more and more, and the people who just want to race a Mazda 787B at Sarthe and take some pictures of it as they enjoy the awesome sound. I personally would be in the first group, as I want to actually have a goal, but some people just want to have fun, so arcade mode would be more attractive to them.

About AI:
This is something GT needs to concentrate on, as well as more cars in a grid. Wether you prefer Arcade or GT mode, in order to have much fun, there needs to be a challenging, realistic opponent to face off with. In GT4, it's too easy to win a 200 A-Spec points. Even with a grossly under-powered car, you can often win easily just by having a good line. I can just imagine how fun a race could be if I could take a car, tune it how I wanted, pick my 20+ opponents, tune them to my liking, and race. (That would be arcade mode) I can also picture buying a slow little 5000 credit car, pushing hard to win some slightly difficult races, tuning it, winning harder races, getiing a new car, etc. (GT mode)

All I'm saying is that they can put both ideas into two different sections of the game.

BMW318ciC

All this would be solved if you had really good AI racers , there reasons races get boring is you can easly win , they need to restucter they way you enter races (Classes , rules...ect )....ect , give more importance to tuning a car and driving and it would be perfect. If a race isn't easy you won't get bored from it . If you do a 100 lap race while you are leading by 10 sec each laps it gets boring , but if you have a wheel to wheel race you for 100 laps that would be much more interesting

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I agree with this for the most part, especially in sprint races, but if you make everything 100% equal you risk getting like NASCAR. Looking at ALMS you can see that the Audis will win the endurance races by multiple laps, and sometimes even the sprint races end up being measured by the difference in laps.

Definitely keeping things better held within a certain class would be nice. I shouldn't be able to drop a stage 4 turbo in an already powerful car and then enter a beginner class race. But expecting an endurance to come down to the wire is somewhat unrealistic.

I wonder if this isn't partly up to the player by design (the ease, not the AI), hence the A-spec points. Less skilled drivers can do 1 point races all they want, but I purposely aim for nothing less than 50 and usually close to 100, As I get better with my DFP or the individual car I tend to work to increase my points totals. I can guarantee you that guys with insanely large amounts of A-spec points will tell you it wasn't a cake walk.

Now, if there were a true profesional or career mode then it cannot have any leeway left up to the player. It has to be a professional difficulty. If that means practicing in arcade or GT mode for months before you start then so be it.

All of this was inspired by my deal regarding taking some inspiration. I'm not asking for PD to copy others. I'm more about "is there something PD can learn from its competition that they can use to be much better than
=
Yes. This is a more intimate model towards what a more realistic model would be like for GT. Thing you have to keep in mind is that I tend to do is read and listen to what people say. The thing that's bugged me often times is that Gran Turismo has been the best racing game series of the modern era. Well if that's true, then why are there statements about stuff in the general context of "this game is good, but could be much better?" I read what you all say, even if they are quote-on-quote... "walls of text." I was just remembering something I read in the past about how this series isn't all that presumably great because it isn't a pure racing sim. I used this thread to post what I think GT would be like if it were a hardcore sim and if it could work without destroying the current formula.

Artificial intelligence has been the key topic mentioned here. I played GTR over the weekend at Estoril in the game's only Corvette (great handling car). I would say that GTR would be the dream emphasis for AI. In addition, maybe something like (going into my other recent thread) rFactor's configuring of AI aggression and strength to compliment that. I've always said that "Pro Race Driver" and "ToCA Race Driver 3" have some of the worst AI. People talked about GT AI like it's the worst of any game. Well, I've played worse. GT's AI banged into me often times. But not to the point of intentionally ramming me off the road like in the two previous games I mentioned earlier. I even been banged up a bit in rFactor in recent times. Still, there have been worse games.

You are still liable to debate as to if a professional model work. I am thankful of all of you to extend this debate. You all are great individuals, and I honor you for your opinion making. So continue to state your claim in this thread. Never be afraid to speak your mind in my threads or anyone else's threads. Keep this discussion going, please.

JohnBM01

Thing you have to keep in mind is that I tend to do is read and listen to what people say. The thing that's bugged me often times is that Gran Turismo has been the best racing game series of the modern era. Well if that's true, then why are there statements about stuff in the general context of "this game is good, but could be much better?" I read what you all say, even if they are quote-on-quote... "walls of text." I was just remembering something I read in the past about how this series isn't all that presumably great because it isn't a pure racing sim.

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I think that it is possible that either you are witnessing conflicting opinions by different people or cases like myself where I think it is the best racing game, for me, but I can definitely see where it needs improvements. Where some people complain that it isn't a pure racing sim they are looking for something that isn't exactly what Gran Turismo ever was.

I used this thread to post what I think GT would be like if it were a hardcore sim and if it could work without destroying the current formula.

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If it were to ever be a purely hardcore sim it would lose some fan base as some people are looking for what Gran Turismo is, which is why I think the only way to do it without destroying the current formula is as a separate mode.

So with this professional mode, how do you all like the ideas I've proposed towards are Career type of mode for GT? What would you change? Or is everything fine as is?

Maybe "ToCA Race Driver 3" had the best model in terms of three different modes. Simulation Mode was more like your arcade fanfare of quick action. World Tour is quasi-career in which you do a number of races to clumb up the latter. It is not required you beat every race in that tier of competition in ToCA RD 3, but it helps if you want to unlock more content. I cleared the World Tour mode except for the final championship after getting 100% completion (the Williams races). Professional Mode is a mode in which you compete in EVERY race of every season. You aren't required to complete silly tasks and such. This game's Professional Mode is sort of the direction many of you "just have it in a seperate mode" people see such a thing happening. Three modes of play can be quite doable. Please offer your opinions and comments.

To be a professional racing sim it would have to have a very organized laid out syle. I was kind of thinking about how Madden's franchise mode works where you work toward setting up for the season and then do some preseason stuff and whatnot.

The difference would be where Madden goes from a professional only mode a racing sim would either have to make you start out small, even qualifying for a racing license with track times and whatnot. Or it would have you jump in as the rookie driver in a series.

The difficulty in planning it is that GT has so many cars that it would be very easy for them to have multiple different types of championships you can enter and then even cross over, like NASCAR drivers do with the Rolex 24 Hours at Daytona or occasional F1 drivers do for 24 Hours of LeMans.

How in-depth your micromanagement goes depends on whether it is laid out as a driver/owner or just driver. A driver can have input, but not make any decisions. Driver/owner can make input and even jump series with a new car and whatnot.

It would be so complex to lay out that it is hard to explain, but for me I imagine if it is to be career oriented it should make me start as a nobody having to pay money to get track time and build a reputation to getting sponsored by Jo-Bob's Cars and Trucks until a professional team makes you an offer, which you can refuse if it isn't a type of racing you want to do. Then you work on your professional reputation and during off seasons your amount of practice and testing deteremines how reliable your car is in during the season. Over time you build up money and get the opportunity to become an owner. There would be no unlocking, but over time your team may switch manufacturers/cars. Basically it has a limited scope based on how you perform. Heck, you could even have a fantasy driver feature to start out so it is you, or whoever you want to create, actually in the car and standing on the podiums.

PD would need to be very clear about how they would lay out the career mode, and FoolKiller is absolutely right. If they don't keep it simple and clear, it will end up hopelessly complicated.

@ John - I like your ideas. I had thought about the benefits of layering a career mode as a separate part of the game to GT mode and Arcade. There is a lot of room for flexibility and a unique/random career progression with each new game. For example, if you wanted to save and exit between races in a championship, or in the middle of a long enduro, and then drop back to arcade mode or GT mode and just bum around for a while, I don't think that should be a problem. It is a game, and even though you can amp up the realism and challenge, it doesn't have to become too rigid.

Maybe as one other member suggested - in GT/Arcade mode you would have the car that is currently being used in career mode blacked out so it can't be used, but allow the player to access other cars in their garage/s and do time trials, test and tune, small championships and so on. Keep the gameplay of GT/Arcade mode separate so that if you want to go back to career mode it just loads back up where you exited at last play.

It would be a fair challenge to have to start as a self-funded amateur privateer and work your way up through the formulas to get up to you desired class of racing. The idea of then gaining sponsorship or a place in an established team and racing a season would be nifty, especially as you could race as an 'employee' for as long as you want, and then when you are ready you could start out with your own racing team.

The idea here is that you would have to part-fund it yourself as a professional privateer, and also gain sponsorships. You could set up that the better your reputation from team driving, the easier it is to get sponsors, and the bigger the sponsorships. From there you really could build your way up to a multi-billion dollar F1 racing team if you wanted to, or run a WRC team, or even a JGTC, V8 Supercar or British Touring car team. What about having more than one class of racing? Complicated, yes, but interesting.

The other thing you could do (just a thought that bounced into my head) - if you were going to have online, the possibility would exist to actually allow real GT team owners to advertise and hire real up-and-coming GT drivers. Yes, the system could be subject to massive abuse, but the possibility is still there. You could have several friends combine to form a big racing team, in which each person can either run in the same race, or different races around the place. There is plenty of potential there... Online career mode.

Anyway, just some thoughts.

The idea here is that you would have to part-fund it yourself as a professional privateer, and also gain sponsorships. You could set up that the better your reputation from team driving, the easier it is to get sponsors, and the bigger the sponsorships. From there you really could build your way up to a multi-billion dollar F1 racing team if you wanted to, or run a WRC team, or even a JGTC, V8 Supercar or British Touring car team. What about having more than one class of racing? Complicated, yes, but interesting.

The other thing you could do (just a thought that bounced into my head) - if you were going to have online, the possibility would exist to actually allow real GT team owners to advertise and hire real up-and-coming GT drivers. Yes, the system could be subject to massive abuse, but the possibility is still there. You could have several friends combine to form a big racing team, in which each person can either run in the same race, or different races around the place. There is plenty of potential there... Online career mode.

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That was what I was thinking!

How about taking the entire mode online? Instead of having to create a seriously complicated feature on disc, the whole idea would work fine online. All raceseries possible, managements, recruiters, even real sponsors could be implemented. A virtual racingseries, or even multiple series!
Basicly, if you want to be a manager, you contact a recruiter, some sponsors and then buy a car or two and get your team going. This could proove expensive, but if you´ve done things right, you´ll be well off. Real money? I don´t know... how about A-spec points?

If you don´t want to be a teamboss, you contact a recruiter and say:
-Hey! I´m a driver! Try me out!
If he finds you to be worthwhile, he´ll effectivly become your agent, and get you a racingseat.

Or be a recruiter! This would in that case be a way to participate online without risking your own points, but still manage a great deal of them. You´d be a contactperson between teams and drivers, and agent to those you think have potential enough.

Thoughts?

Well, chaps, GT5 is going to be a better sim for racing. I've just seen a trailer I had on my hard-drive, and GT5 is gonna rule. There was this JGTC race at the Nurburgring and there was every single JGTC car there. It was totally spectacular. Then there was a JGTC race at the Twin Ring Speedway. A Xanavi Nissan Skyline pulled into the pits and I was washed away by the detail. Fully 3D tyres on racks behind the wall. About 200 people and race officials moving about, talking to one another and stuff. All motion captured to a better extent than the guys at GT Auto in GT4! It was totally stunning. Each car had individual pit crews (all motion-captured of course), all visible at one time. It was just truly stunning.

PM me with your email address if you want the file....

Ethan

I've seen it, and no to knock you but that was not GT5, that was GT:HD Classic, a game that was canned not that long ago. The vids of GT5 so far just show one of selected cars on one track, theres not much to see of GT5 yet, but what there is, looks stunning, better than GTHD classic, I just wonder how many cars will be in each race, I doubt it will be as many as that GT:HD CLassic vid showed, it could still be 6, but I'd like to think it will be more.

Take the whole mode online? What... you want GT5 to be Forza (no disrespect to either game)? Could THAT actually work? My only recommendation is that you aren't required to go online if you want full completion. But what do you all make of this claim?

JohnBM01

Take the whole mode online? What... you want GT5 to be Forza (no disrespect to either game)? Could THAT actually work? My only recommendation is that you aren't required to go online if you want full completion. But what do you all make of this claim?

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It can make it more interesting, but not everyone likes to play online (I'm the one guy that doesn't).

If I were to like the idea then I would have one question, which is the same make or break deal I have for all online games: Will it cost me money? The previous idea of GTHD Classic or whatever it was turned me off real quick because I wasn't paying more on top of my purchase price. That is just the way I roll.

Now, if it is free then some of you guys better form a team with me because I only have a couple of friends that play GT and they aren't as die hard as I am.


But I would rather leave online to head-to head or other type of modes because a professional racing sim where I have to have a team or participate in races against other players means that I have to submit to a schedule, and can't just decide to plop down with my DFP and play another race in my championship.

An online championship series is not a viable idea for people with jobs, families, and large social lives. I like my money, I like my wife, and I love my beer. I wouldn't be able to do a properly formed online racing series. I could see it now, where it is scheduled for just after I get in from drinking with my friends. My wife hauls me out of the car and I get online just to turn the race into a demolition derby because it was funny. I would only work around an organized schedulke if I won money in the end, which means I would possibly have to pay to enter, which means I wouldn't do it anyway. I think online just isn't logistically plausible. Besides, who wants their fun time to be on a schedule that isn't flexible?

Online races that you can do whenever is fine, but a schedule professional style racing sim won't work.

^^ Why not? An online team could be way larger than a real team, so that scheduels are not needed. You simply put your name on a list for when you are available, and the Team decides if you will participate. Of course this recuires that you have a multiple choice, with several teams, in case you don´t get picked at the time.

Team666

^^ Why not? An online team could be way larger than a real team, so that scheduels are not needed. You simply put your name on a list for when you are available, and the Team decides if you will participate. Of course this recuires that you have a multiple choice, with several teams, in case you don´t get picked at the time.

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What if you get picked twice for the same time?


Maybe it is just me, but yesterday I worked 11 hours, went home, ate dinner, watched Heroes, and passed out. Today it will be about 9-10 hours of work, and I won't be nearly as exhausted. Once my new project gets worked out in a couple of weeks I probably won't be doing more than my usual 8 hours a day. I don't have the leeway to schedule a racing series and I want to see my wife, family, friends or beer on the weekend. I play games when I feel like it. If it has been a maddening day I tend to shoot stuff. If it has been a stressful day I play Wii Sports. If it has been a great day I play GT. If I decide I want to continue my championship in GT today, I don't want to worry whether the rest of my team, or competitors, is online. I just want to sit down and play.

I think having to rely on others all over the country, or world even, in order to progress can become maddening. Having one race runs online works best because someone can organize a series (which I guarantee will happen here) and those who like it or find it feasible can do it.

But look at our debates here on GTP. We had problems with people being busy and having trouble making a 3-day window.

Now, I am not saying that it wouldn't be cool to have an online racing championship. I am just saying it doesn't work for me and too many people who want a professional sim but have busy or unpredictable schedules won't be able to enjoy it. If it is on disc everyone has a chance to use it. If you make it both ways then it will be fine because I will be able to play mine when it fits my schedule while you and your team can work out your set schedule.

I’m also one of the guys in the "three mode" crowd, but I think that both the existing modes need some tinkering as well. I’ll start with arcade mode, get ready for a wall of text...

Arcade mode:
I think that arcade mode needs to be changed so that all the cars and tracks in the game are available from the start. Think about it, arcade mode is for the casual gamers, and that right there would capture ALL the casual gamers. You pick up GT5, bring it home, pop it in your PS3 and bang, you’ve got a choice of 700 cars to hop in and 50 different places to drive the wheels off of em. That’s the epitome of instant gratification for a car enthusiast.

GT mode:
The only thing that NEEDS taken from GT mode is the one make races. GT mode caters mostly to the collectors and the tuner crowd, the races exist for one reason only, and that is that racing makes the most sense as a way of earning cash in a game about cars. Having to buy 20 cars you don’t even like to complete 20 different races really doesn’t make much sense. The other thing I’m 50/50 on is prize cars. I think you should be able to buy every car in the game but if they do away with the one make races then prize cars will be tolerable.

Simulation mode:
yeah, here’s where it gets good. Simulation mode will focus mostly on race cars. You will have all the normal race team type stuff to worry about like sponsors, licensing, (I think the race licences should be moved to this mode) and tuning (not modifying) your car to try to get an edge on the competition. In the beginning you may start out with lightly modified street cars in some sort of one make cup series. You would race that cup for as many seasons as you like, each season being maybe 15-20 races. As you won championships you would get opportunities to move up to the bigger series. If they choose to include nascars perhaps you could enter into the nextel cup and run a full season in your shiny nextel cup stock car. Give a go at a GT class lemans title in your M3 race car or go for the overall win in a GT1 class racer. You could even try your hand at the F1 GP. Which series you chose to enter or not would be up to you entirely, each time you entered a season the races would be different and you would eventually work your way up to being a veteran racer in any series you chose to commit many seasons to.

I've always had some criticisms of online play. Most of you know I'm not an online gamer. The criticism in this sense is that the level of difficulty in online games can be significantly higher or lower depending on who you go around and who you actually go up against. Are you going up against first-timers with low experience in racing games, or are you going against Gran Turismo veterans (like myself) who know every intricacy(?) of GT games? I usually go by "never assume anything." Never assume that if GT5 had an online model like the full online career mode in Forza that the game will be easier or more fun online. You may go up against "Pro Race Driver" or "ToCA Race Driver 3" rejects that intentionally ram you off the road and give you hair-pull after hair-pull. I always say that if you want to introduce an online career, make it seperate from this Career Mode. Online play has always been a secondary option. I don't want to make online usage a factor to 100% completion of GT5. Think about the people who don't have broadband service and want to play online with the PS3. I'm still using my reliable (albeit outdated) 56K modem speed. Never touched the ethernet port with a broadband connection. Multiplay is always secondary/optional regardless of what most people think.

To carry the online argument further, it is extremely possible to come up with racing leagues with certain sanctions. One could set up an all-Japan tour to race at Tokyo R246, Fuji (any version), Twin Ring Motegi (full road course), Tsukuba, and end it with Suzuka (full course). The sanction could be only for Japanese automobiles including racing models. That sample championship could be taken note in terms of two seperate sections of a profile. A section would be for the regular game, then another section would highlight online races. Some others would say that the offline and online win/loss total should be combined because a loss online is a loss online. I just think for those who want to go online and race, I would make it a seperate total from the single-player game. Someone can be 245-25 offline and 15-30 online. That would total up to a win/loss count of 260-55 overall.

Let's continue to build this hypothetical Career Mode for GT5. Could this mode possibly be integrated into GT Mode without sacrificing copious amounts of the GT formula?

If GT5 does feature an online mode, the option to include a password for race entry is absolutely necessary for that exact reason-distributing the password to certain users that you already know so that only they can enter the race

I don't think GT should be changed it is the only game that is about having a whole bunch of cars. Why would it be changed it is the best racing game as it is. Although minor changes should be made as each new game comes out the idea should stay the same.

inferno

GT mode:
The only thing that NEEDS taken from GT mode is the one make races.

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While some of them annoy the hell out of me I don't see why when one make races are common in real life. You have entire racing series built around one makes. I even saw a bunch of BMWs racing at Lake Lanier(sp?) across from Road Atlanta when I went to the Petite LeMans in 2001. It is a realistic racing scenario so I think it belongs, even if I don't like it.

As for no prize cars I think you are making the game too open ended. Take away goals and the desire to play for non-hardcore car fans is gone. I have yet to get all golds, but I am determined to get that Model T. If it weren't for that I wouldn't be trying. Because it is there I have printed out the write-ups from GTP and keep them bound next to my PS2 for when I have one I can't shave that .5 seconds off of.

I think this is all opinion though and I suggest moving any further discussion about these things to PM so this thread stays on topic.

And back on topic.

JohnBM01

I've always had some criticisms of online play. Most of you know I'm not an online gamer.

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I didn't but it is nice to know I'm not alone on this. I agree with all of your reasoning, plus the occasional cheaters.

Let's continue to build this hypothetical Career Mode for GT5. Could this mode possibly be integrated into GT Mode without sacrificing copious amounts of the GT formula?

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Hey, if it doesn't stop me from driving around the ring in a Nissan Pao or a Midget or an R8 whenever I want then I will support it. I think it coudl work because the money you earn in GT Mode goes towards your costs of getting started or entry fees or however it could be laid out. You could even use your GT Mode cars to get started with or build up to a race car.

Most likely I think it would be a section like the beginners and whatnot and you have to select a real-life championship to race in and have one of the cars that matches that series. But that makes it a bit too arcadey and not real-life and that's the issue is that if they go for a professional career sim then I want to see a massive way to play the game out that would be too large to just be a side part of GT Mode. I think it woudl be too complicated to have it as a part of GT Mode without making it like the current professional series in GT4, but with actual series based completely on JGTC, ALMS, LMES, F1, DTM, etc. It woudl have an almost arcade interface, but then between races in the series you would have to make practice days and qualifying days and tweak your car for each individual track. And it has to have realistic damage. If you wreck in qualifying you start in the back of the pack and get no chance to set up your car more than you can do in the pits. Race lengths should be realistic (pit saves, PUHleaseee!) and make some sort of mini game for pit stops so that the pit times aren't all uniform. You can even have pit crew practices between races so you can improve your skills for the mini game. Actually this pit crew thing should be in all of GT Mode. I think it would be neat if you pushed the wrong button and your guy drops the air gun.

ANother idea is that on the GT Mode map you could have where you can visit individual professional race series in their home country/region. Like Indy/Champ Car/ALMS/NASCAR could be in the America menu. DTM, LMS, etc can be in the European menu. JGTC, JLMS (that is happening right?), whatnot would be in Japan. Formula 1 and a few other worldwide series could be on the main map.

There are probably a dozen ways it could be done, but I can't think of them all.

Let me try something different for this thread. To formulate a career or team-specific model for GT5, let's look at some other past games.

Forza Motorsport Showdown
This entry sort of ties into the "Forza Motorsport Showdown" show on Speed Channel. I'm assuming you all in America (and Canada too?) got a chance to see the show. It is basically based on the upcoming (and I want to play this on an XBOX360 kiosk) "Forza Motorsport 2." The show is basically about six real drivers in six respective cars competing in a variety of events ranging from road racing to power and speed competition. The element of a team installing everything including teams of real people installing all the parts by exchanging credits in the game for shiny new parts. I think the team aspect that can be derived can be thought of as team chemistry among driver and a team principal (a crew chief or spotter in this sense). The show has Trans-Am veteran, Lou Gilotti and 17-year old "young gun" Jace Miller. Remember the first two episodes of the show? Gilotti was more like "he's not a great driver. We're willing to work with you, but you have to improve on your own." Something like this reminds me of one team leader in another game...

Ridge Racer Type 4
I say that RRT4 is the best arcadish racing game with a pro feel to it. My FMS example reminds me of racing for Team Solvalou in RRT4. I am a Ridge Racer veteran. Having to race for the leader of R.T. Solvalou in RRT4 is kind of like the deal between Gilotti and Miller. You don't get credits or whatever in this game as you would in Forza Motorsport or Gran Turismo. However, you represent 1/2 of your team as there are eight cars to a track. Your finishing position in this game as well as your overall performance determines what kind of cars you race with in the next heat. The easiest is Team Mappy while the toughest (believe it or not) is Dig Dug Racing. I say that Dig Dug is the toughest to work with because your team has a limited budget and can't afford the fanciest cars no matter how great you drive. The only team I haven't mentioned was Pac Racing (which I almost mistakenly said "Pac-West" racing back in the old CART days). Pac Racing is pretty cool with that punk team leader. What this game offered in terms of a team aspect is that you join a team, pick a sponsor (namely the car company you'll race with for the season), and go race. You're committed to race all eight races for the season in the game ranging from Helter Skelter to Shooting Hoops.

(American Name) Jarrett and LaBonte Stock Car Racing
I hate the NASCAR reference, but this is probably one of the best racing games on the PS1. This is a game made by the lovable blokes at British company Codemasters. You have every track available to you from the start including all of the different international championships. Some of the extra cars can be acheived by racing through the Championship Mode. You can unlock certain extras by completing tasks. For example, "win three races this season," "beat any Team xxxxxxxx rival four times this season," and stuff like that. Those incentives are there for all to behold. It adds a bit more to the table rather than just "set the car up and win the race. No excuses."


All of this is based on racing games I've played before and are ready to recall my experiences for this post. I think the team and career aspects should be put in a way in which there is no compromise as to taking away the GT experience. G4 TV show "X-Play" jokingly called GT4 as the "Pokémon of car collecting." Funny as it sounds, it's true. Who wouldn't want to fill their 1,000-car garage with at least one car from each of the countries represented in GT4? You wouldn't want to have a completely linear GT game now, would you? Call me crazy, but I think GT could probably benefit from the GTA series in tersm of how to go about a career/free play system. I'm not talking about picking up hookers and evading cops in GT5, but something like "you can go a variety of ways in this game... just be sure to clear your ultimate objective." The ultimate objective in GT5 is to (and I think PD needs to maybe change things up) win the Gran Turismo World Championship series. There has to be a sort of team or career model to help get people out on those who want pure racing for those who want to see it happen.

how about having online races that can be used to complete your carrear? i heard forza 2 is considering this...

Again, I don't want online to be a requirement. I know online play has really risen over the years, but I still think it should always be secondary or optional. I think the game should be able to be completed 100% without online play. Think of those who aren't online gamers. Do you tell them "too bad, live with it?" I don't have broadband or any sort of connection deal with Sony Online. So am I out of luck? So make this optional or secondary if you want to have an online-integrated deal.