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[chuyler1]

I agree @Dragonwhisky which is why I sort of lay back and watch things unfold in these reverse grid races. My closest opponents are usually right in front of me and we're all waiting in line to get around a slower driver ahead. When cars are running single file you don't get any help with the draft. If you succumb to the fact you will not be able to out race someone you'll let the adrenaline pass and simply put your car in a position to capitalize on mistakes rather than force passes that are not clean or earned.

Now that I'm in a division among peers, passing is no longer the goal. Staying close is my goal as well as preventing others from getting opportunities to pass me. In practice, one of the D1 drivers said my car was as wide as the track. I held off about 4 cars at Spa that night by being fast in the only two places on the track that count: Turn 1+Eau Rouge, and Turn 15 (Stavelot). If you build a 2-3 car gap exiting those turns, you eliminate the draft...and that eliminates any clean passing as long as you put your car on the right part of the track for the rest of the turns. I think I was running defensive 2:28s among drivers that could run 2:25-2:26.

 

[intoflatlines]

The fact that passing is difficult, if not almost impossible, when the driver in front of you doesn't make a mistake, is how it ought to be and a testament to one of the main goals of this league, and proof that Promotion and Relegation work to meet that goal.

I would rather follow someone around the entire race, and if neither of us makes even the smallest mistake, finish behind them and know we both drove our best. This is not to say, after pressuring someone and they make that little squiggle or miss a corner entry, that slows them just enough for me to get a better run to the next corner, and for that moment, I did it better and was rewarded with a higher finishing position, is not equally as satisfying as the former.

I think I misspoke when I was talking about the drawbacks to Ascari. It's not exactly that you can't pass without a mistake by the person in front. It's more that it seems like the racing line through the corners is particularly unforgiving or something... where going for a pass or defending near a corner leads to disaster.

But yes I agree that it's incredibly fun being on someone's ass the whole race, or holding off someone to the rear for many laps, even if no passes are made.

 

[RinnFah]

West Coast Report

It was a bit of a mixed Bag. I was late so held everyone up and I apologize for that. It shows we still need a Host. I think @RevStar-9 said he might be able to help out. If so awesome and it was fun having you back. We also had some new guys (@RinnFah, @vitalik79, @Jose Torres) with us and I hope you had a good time. Unfortunately some of them did not make it the whole night.

Big downsides were that @NDRK1088 was having lag issues and ended up having to bail out. We hope next week is better. @Neovre also did not make it a night which is a real Shame because @GranStand Bill was on fire and giving him a good run.

Bill went on to win the night which is awesome.

Over all I had a good night with a win, a second and two thirds. I had no terrible races and recovered well from the few mistakes I made. The Redbull suited me very well. I think I had a 1:08.6 but will need to check that. My goal all night was to just relax and try not to make mistakes. I think I managed that.

Less good was the 4 "Dust Bunnies" I had to self report in the first race. Luckily my second race was clean. Those chicanes at Ascari suck!

@tezgm99 seemed to be complaining a bit but got a well earned third overall

Hopefully next week will be a bit better with no connection issues. The new guys will have a week to settle in and get past the first week nerves. And hopefully we will all finish the entire night. We started with 9 West Coasters which is awesome!

To all the new guys. Please be sure to file an incident report if you feel that someone caused an incident with you. Also if you have any questions or thoughts about last night let me know. Just make sure not to discuss any incidents in the main thread.

Finally @RevStar-9 Stick with that Redbull. It can be a lot of fun. Just remember High Downforce means it works best when going flat out!

Thanks guys

Joby

It was a real treat racing with you guys last night. And Joby, it was nice trailing you in the Bull. Up until I bit the kerb of course.

See you guys next week!

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Whoever heard of such a thing?


I would also like to publicly thank @daan for cleaning up the recent mess that was made in our thread. I appreciate your efforts there. Thank you.

 

[Azure Flare]

Bing is a better search engine, I know that because I Googled it.

 

[BayouSimDrifter]

Ascari and the Clio were not liking me all week, so much so i raged and unplugged my wheel and used my DS3 only for that race...........

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Bing is a better search engine, I know that because I Googled it.

I didn't get that error when using google as a search engine.

 

[intoflatlines]

I get that same error when checking the Google Docs. Seems to be affecting my personal Drive docs as well so it must be a Google drive/docs outage.

 

[LeoStrop]

I believe Ascari provides many passing opportunities, but positioning the car for it is very important, slow in fast out before the straights to build speed is the way to go. I understand the different opinions because the other driver has to be very clean for things to work, but i think it gives a great battle! Nothing compared with the Jr, like you guys said, you just have to sit and wait, and sometimes it is you that end up making that mistake

Spa is the best for sure, but that Megane always bites me.

 

[JLBowler]

View attachment 129178 Whoever heard of such a thing?


I would also like to publicly thank @daan for cleaning up the recent mess that was made in our thread. I appreciate your efforts there. Thank you.

Good to know someone else is getting the error. I assume you're getting that when attempting to view the incident reports.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Good to know someone else is getting the error. I assume you're getting that when attempting to view the incident reports.

Any spreadsheet I try to load is punking out. Other documents, not spreadsheets, seem to be opening just fine.

 

[fizzer]

I agree @Dragonwhisky which is why I sort of lay back and watch things unfold in these reverse grid races. My closest opponents are usually right in front of me and we're all waiting in line to get around a slower driver ahead. When cars are running single file you don't get any help with the draft. If you succumb to the fact you will not be able to out race someone you'll let the adrenaline pass and simply put your car in a position to capitalize on mistakes rather than force passes that are not clean or earned.

While this is true, I think sometimes people can be a bit over-cautious when behind a slower car.

Remember, you have to have sufficient overlap prior to the car in front's turn-in point. This is key. If you have a long enough braking zone to work with, you could be up to a car-length behind and still make a safe and fair pass. You have to be cautious yes, but safe and aggressive can coexist.

Plan the pass. Study your opponents braking point. A good pass can turn into a divebomb if you aren't careful. In order to out-brake someone without initial overlap, you must be sure you can brake almost a full car-length later than them and still maintain your line. You can only know this if you've followed them through that particular corner at least once, preferably multiple times.

Make your intentions clear. Pull out of line long enough before the braking point so the driver in front has a good idea what you're doing. Too early and you'll lose the draft, dart to the inside immediately before their braking point and you're asking for trouble. This isn't F1.

Stay close to their side. This seems counter intuitive, but the closer you are to your opponent, the safer the pass (within reason, don't try to rip their side mirrors out). There's a couple reasons for this. First, by staying close, you minimize the time you are in their blind spot and they in yours. In GT6, this also means the little opponent arrow goes away if you are too far. Second, no matter how well you may outbrake, if you're too far to the inside, you're not going to make the corner without drifting out and probably having contact. Finally, the less separation, the less effect any incidental contact does have. If something goes wrong and you're 6 inches away, there's only so much closing speed that can be generated. If you're car-widths away, the possibility of a serious collision is greater.

If you have the confidence, make the move. Realizing of course that if there's contact before you've developed overlap or you outbrake yourself and carry too much speed to hold your chosen line, it will be 100% your fault.

Sorry, that got a little long winded, but the discussion reminded me of some things I've learned from friends who are SCCA instructors and comp license holders.

 

[tezgm99]

@tezgm99 seemed to be complaining a bit but got a well earned third overall

I was trying to pump myself up but given I've already filed 4 self reports, it obviously didn't work at all

 

[K1utch]

Hello everyone. Ive decided. im no longer going to be racing for a win anymore. Hell I could care less about winning any race right now. My primary focus is racecraft. Ive been working on it but it seems to be very difficult when it comes to people just making a lot of mistakes and you capitalizing off of it correctly without making it worse. I normally I want it to improve but it seems its just not good enough cause people seem to get unnervally pissed off with me. I Im trying to get it right and not be brute. IM trying to be patient. I just hope ive improved but it seems like im not aat all apparently. I have no idea what to do. Frankly it makes me feel like quitting the snail racing league and go rogue before I came here. MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

 

[TEX36]

MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

Similarly, I'm not sure what to do about the "Start Pack" - a lot of bumping is the result of everyone wanting to at least "stay close" to the leaders. Once we get around the first lap, things seem to get stretched out ...... but even then (particularly with Combos 1 and 3 last night) staying close behind someone "and waiting for their slip-up" can be dicey as well. Tried to anticipate early braking and would still tag the car ahead.
I don't know what the answer is for narrow tracks. Maybe the Snail Brain Trust will have some suggestions.

 

[BayouSimDrifter]

Hello everyone. Ive decided. im no longer going to be racing for a win anymore. Hell I could care less about winning any race right now. My primary focus is racecraft. Ive been working on it but it seems to be very difficult when it comes to people just making a lot of mistakes and you capitalizing off of it correctly without making it worse. I normally I want it to improve but it seems its just not good enough cause people seem to get unnervally pissed off with me. I Im trying to get it right and not be brute. IM trying to be patient. I just hope ive improved but it seems like im not aat all apparently. I have no idea what to do. Frankly it makes me feel like quitting the snail racing league and go rogue before I came here. MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

be less aggressive and try following. I have pretty horrible lines but once i start following someone i just wait for an opening i never force it............except for that one time against @Piler on silverstone



EDIT: can we please take a break from MR cars lol

 

[Rallywagon]

Hello everyone. Ive decided. im no longer going to be racing for a win anymore. Hell I could care less about winning any race right now. My primary focus is racecraft. Ive been working on it but it seems to be very difficult when it comes to people just making a lot of mistakes and you capitalizing off of it correctly without making it worse. I normally I want it to improve but it seems its just not good enough cause people seem to get unnervally pissed off with me. I Im trying to get it right and not be brute. IM trying to be patient. I just hope ive improved but it seems like im not aat all apparently. I have no idea what to do. Frankly it makes me feel like quitting the snail racing league and go rogue before I came here. MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

Racecraft is just like racing. In that, in order to be good at it, you need to practice it. When you hot lap and you are used to turning as fast a lap as you can, on the brink, its hard to dial it back to race speed. Especially if you don't practice at race speed as well. I would suggest going into open lobby rooms, and do just that. get behind a group, and just follow them. Don't try to win, don't let the ego take over. Just follow the group around the track. You will start to find a different rhythm I think. You will also start to see different styles and get a better understanding of how and where clean passing can be acomplished on a given track when racing agaisnt different styles. I was trying to get a sort of racecraft practice started a while ago, using boost to keep everyone fairly bunched up and tight, but at the time we were only between 3 and 5 divisions. Maybe you guys can get something like that started now? With boost on, it helps to allow everyone the ability to race up and in the pack. Since the purpose is just that, to race in a pack, not to win, you get to focus better on racing cleanly.

 

[rob1nh000d]

While this is true, I think sometimes people can be a bit over-cautious when behind a slower car.

Remember, you have to have sufficient overlap prior to the car in front's turn-in point. This is key. If you have a long enough braking zone to work with, you could be up to a car-length behind and still make a safe and fair pass. You have to be cautious yes, but safe and aggressive can coexist.

Plan the pass. Study your opponents braking point. A good pass can turn into a divebomb if you aren't careful. In order to out-brake someone without initial overlap, you must be sure you can brake almost a full car-length later than them and still maintain your line. You can only know this if you've followed them through that particular corner at least once, preferably multiple times.

Make your intentions clear. Pull out of line long enough before the braking point so the driver in front has a good idea what you're doing. Too early and you'll lose the draft, dart to the inside immediately before their braking point and you're asking for trouble. This isn't F1.

Stay close to their side. This seems counter intuitive, but the closer you are to your opponent, the safer the pass (within reason, don't try to rip their side mirrors out). There's a couple reasons for this. First, by staying close, you minimize the time you are in their blind spot and they in yours. In GT6, this also means the little opponent arrow goes away if you are too far. Second, no matter how well you may outbrake, if you're too far to the inside, you're not going to make the corner without drifting out and probably having contact. Finally, the less separation, the less effect any incidental contact does have. If something goes wrong and you're 6 inches away, there's only so much closing speed that can be generated. If you're car-widths away, the possibility of a serious collision is greater.

If you have the confidence, make the move. Realizing of course that if there's contact before you've developed overlap or you outbrake yourself and carry too much speed to hold your chosen line, it will be 100% your fault.

Sorry, that got a little long winded, but the discussion reminded me of some things I've learned from friends who are SCCA instructors and comp license holders.

Wow, good advice, I really appreciate this inner detail on what must be one of the top five most necessary skills of winning a race, 'the pass'.

 

[rob1nh000d]

Racecraft is just like racing. In that, in order to be good at it, you need to practice it. When you hot lap and you are used to turning as fast a lap as you can, on the brink, its hard to dial it back to race speed. Especially if you don't practice at race speed as well. I would suggest going into open lobby rooms, and do just that. get behind a group, and just follow them. Don't try to win, don't let the ego take over. Just follow the group around the track. You will start to find a different rhythm I think. You will also start to see different styles and get a better understanding of how and where clean passing can be acomplished on a given track when racing agaisnt different styles. I was trying to get a sort of racecraft practice started a while ago, using boost to keep everyone fairly bunched up and tight, but at the time we were only between 3 and 5 divisions. Maybe you guys can get something like that started now? With boost on, it helps to allow everyone the ability to race up and in the pack. Since the purpose is just that, to race in a pack, not to win, you get to focus better on racing cleanly.

Sounds like a very good idea Rallywagon, I would really like to participate in this. Let me know if you start a room like this! Thanks

 

[chuyler1]

Plan the pass. Study your opponents braking point. A good pass can turn into a divebomb if you aren't careful. In order to out-brake someone without initial overlap, you must be sure you can brake almost a full car-length later than them and still maintain your line. You can only know this if you've followed them through that particular corner at least once, preferably multiple times.

Yes, yes, YES! Following someone for one lap can help you learn their weaknesses and be ready the next lap. This is part of the reason I chose the short Silverstone track a few weeks back. More laps = more time to study your opponent and plan your pass. It also teaches you where your ow weak points are.


@K1utch I think you simply don't give the other drivers on the track enough credit. Sure, some (maybe most) are slower qualifiers than you, but that doesn't mean they don't know where to brake or how to run a proper line. When following slower drivers you can lift off early and brake early with less brake pressure and still exit the turn right on their bumper. Leave some space and the draft will allow you to make up any ground lost.

Using the braking points you would use on a qualifying lap while following a chain of cars that are drafting is the biggest mistake drivers make. In the draft, you have to brake earlier because you are driving faster. In a pack, cars will slow down more for the turns for a number of reasons. Coming in full speed does not account for the accordion effect of cars in traffic, the slight bumps that cause drivers to lift mid corner, or the side by side racing that slows everyone down. If you lift early and brake early to match speed with the cars ahead, you can close gaps and occasionally capitalize on mistakes...but if you come in hot, you are more likely to be the mistake than make a clean pass.

@Rallywagon I like the idea of boost nights but I've tried it before and it actually makes things worse. It gives drivers the ability to attempt passes at unsafe locations and carnage usually ensues as drivers carry more speed than they are expecting into turns. The racing eventually turns even dirtier than without boost.

 

[FloydC3]

Sounds like a very good idea Rallywagon, I would really like to participate in this. Let me know if you start a room like this! Thanks

I wouldn't care to do that sounds. Like fun

 

[fizzer]

Following in @nmcp1 's footsteps, here is the D1 data summary. I like the idea of sharing some stats, so I'll continue to post the summary going forward. It's only a coincidence that I had a good night the first time I'm posting it

D1 data has been entered to the Director's Doc for 3/16/2014

Pole times:
Round 1 : @martin20az - 2:24.782
Round 2 : @fizzer - 2:25.140
Round 3 : @fizzer - 1:06.887

Fast Laps:
Round 1 Race 1 : @fizzer - 2:24.403
Round 1 Race 2 : @fizzer - 2:24.568

Round 2 Race 1 : @fizzer - 2:24.710
Round 2 Race 2 : @qwietstorm - 2:24.612

Round 3 Race 1 : @fizzer - 1:07.071
Round 3 Race 2 : @Nicktune - 1:07.518

Fast Race:
Round 1: 9:46.052
Round 2: 9:41.682
Round 3: 10:13.402

Highest Gap, first to last:
Round 1, Race 1: 43.837

Smallest Gap, first to last:
Round 1, Race 2: 7.776


Replays are uploaded and data will be available in the Results Doc once copied.

 

[rob1nh000d]

Yes, yes, YES! Following someone for one lap can help you learn their weaknesses and be ready the next lap. This is part of the reason I chose the short Silverstone track a few weeks back. More laps = more time to study your opponent and plan your pass. It also teaches you where your ow weak points are.


@K1utch I think you simply don't give the other drivers on the track enough credit. Sure, some (maybe most) are slower qualifiers than you, but that doesn't mean they don't know where to brake or how to run a proper line. When following slower drivers you can lift off early and brake early with less brake pressure and still exit the turn right on their bumper. Leave some space and the draft will allow you to make up any ground lost.

Using the braking points you would use on a qualifying lap while following a chain of cars that are drafting is the biggest mistake drivers make. In the draft, you have to brake earlier because you are driving faster. In a pack, cars will slow down more for the turns for a number of reasons. Coming in full speed does not account for the accordion effect of cars in traffic, the slight bumps that cause drivers to lift mid corner, or the side by side racing that slows everyone down. If you lift early and brake early to match speed with the cars ahead, you can close gaps and occasionally capitalize on mistakes...but if you come in hot, you are more likely to be the mistake than make a clean pass.

@Rallywagon I like the idea of boost nights but I've tried it before and it actually makes things worse. It gives drivers the ability to attempt passes at unsafe locations and carnage usually ensues as drivers carry more speed than they are expecting into turns. The racing eventually turns even dirtier than without boost.

But couldn't the host kind of talk that out of the group some?; Multiple starts, like a yellow, and with the right group of people who kind of make it their intent to learn what the purpose of this room would be?

 

[Dragonwhisky]

Hello everyone. Ive decided. im no longer going to be racing for a win anymore. Hell I could care less about winning any race right now. My primary focus is racecraft. Ive been working on it but it seems to be very difficult when it comes to people just making a lot of mistakes and you capitalizing off of it correctly without making it worse. I normally I want it to improve but it seems its just not good enough cause people seem to get unnervally pissed off with me. I Im trying to get it right and not be brute. IM trying to be patient. I just hope ive improved but it seems like im not aat all apparently. I have no idea what to do. Frankly it makes me feel like quitting the snail racing league and go rogue before I came here. MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

This right there is a good start on improving your racecraft. Make the win equal a pristine no contact race instead of a first place finish. With this in mind, your wins can be counted with every time your car is near another and you don't make contact. If you make a mistake and damage another's race, don't say your sorry, make your apologies with your car, right then. Just like that race at Silverstone last season, you could have easily finished first in, but chose not to.

Forget about winning the race and focus on doing it squeaky. No, that doesn't mean making your car squeak against another.

 

[Rallywagon]

@chuyler1 , Sorry man, but I can't help but think then that you all were doing it wrong. The point isn't really to pass. The point is to practice racecraft. I understand that boost artifically raises grip and acceleration for the people behind. But the point isn't really to practice a combo. I would even suggest not using a combo for the week, jus tot avoid people getting used to one with boost on.
The point of the event would solely be to practice racecraft. Not to gain positions or try to win. Just to get comfortable with racing on a track in the group. If someone goes out into a run off, they don't have to scrap the race, they can easily catch back up and get back into practicing. The key thing that needs to be worked on is patience building, not really passing. If you have the patience to turn lap after lap waiting for a mistake, instead of being impatient and aggresive trying to force a mistake then you are surely going to come to a Sunday with better racecraft, and probably not get any penalties.

 

[ptslopoke]

Hello everyone. Ive decided. im no longer going to be racing for a win anymore. Hell I could care less about winning any race right now. My primary focus is racecraft. Ive been working on it but it seems to be very difficult when it comes to people just making a lot of mistakes and you capitalizing off of it correctly without making it worse. I normally I want it to improve but it seems its just not good enough cause people seem to get unnervally pissed off with me. I Im trying to get it right and not be brute. IM trying to be patient. I just hope ive improved but it seems like im not aat all apparently. I have no idea what to do. Frankly it makes me feel like quitting the snail racing league and go rogue before I came here. MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

I have been racing with you (@K1utch) for the past month now in d3 and now d2 typically I am one of your closest racers on the track most Sundays... You have improved like ONE MILLION times from the first weekend when we both started. You always had the speed, but your race craft is improving big time.

Beginning of last month if I saw you behind me i would just let you by, since I know you were going to take me out anyway.
Last night, I saw you behind me and was not worried and just drove my lines and it was nice to know that I wasn't going to get punted. I am working on my race craft too so i know we are on the same boat, patience and figuring out how/when to brake and following correctly without losing time is what I still need to work on.

 

[kcheeb]

The Directors doc sheets have been copied to the Results doc now. If you're a Data Specialist, please enter your numbers in the Results doc. Thanks!

N.B. We still need numbers for D8 in the Directors doc. Is someone able to take care of that?

 

[Dragonwhisky]

I really don't think boost is the answer for practicing. While it does help to keep everyone bunched up, it doesn't really help with learning no boost decision making. What might be considered for this kind of a practice is for whoever the fastest drivers in the room are to slow down some and let the not as fast drivers stay on their bumper, or get on their bumper and pressure them. The only way to learn what will work and what won't is to go out and see it and do it.

I've never liked boost. It just makes you think you're faster, when you really aren't.

 

[Sharkb8ii]

Hello everyone. Ive decided. im no longer going to be racing for a win anymore. Hell I could care less about winning any race right now. My primary focus is racecraft. Ive been working on it but it seems to be very difficult when it comes to people just making a lot of mistakes and you capitalizing off of it correctly without making it worse. I normally I want it to improve but it seems its just not good enough cause people seem to get unnervally pissed off with me. I Im trying to get it right and not be brute. IM trying to be patient. I just hope ive improved but it seems like im not aat all apparently. I have no idea what to do. Frankly it makes me feel like quitting the snail racing league and go rogue before I came here. MMMMM its very frustrating to me. Any tips guys?

Save your race replays, then in the next couple of days review them like how a football coach would review game films. That is how I have been learning. Trust me it works. If you feel good about a certain segment, cool, if you cringe at other segments, then ask yourself what you could have done differently.

 

[chuyler1]

@Rallywagon I know. I'm just saying I've tried it before and the racing is odd. Drivers are constantly shuffling between no grip and grip and have trouble running clean laps let alone practicing race craft. Only way it would work would be to force single file or something...but then it isn't really racing. Racecraft is about trying to pass and making the act of doing so as clean as possible. The only way to really practice that is to know the spots it is truely possible to pass. With boost on every corner is a passing opportunity.

Want to really practice racecraft. Turn full damage on. You'd be surprised how cautiously drivers become when the thought of their race being over with a single mistake is running through their head at each braking point. It will occasionally serve up some raw deals, but that's racing.