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[qwietstorm]

I agree, it doesn't matter how many laps are in the race, aggressive drivers will be aggressive no matter what.

We've all been on the highway and there's hardly any traffic but there's always one asshat driving in an overly aggressive manner. It's like that...there's no need to drive aggressive. There's no traffic, but it's in that driver's nature so he's going to do it naturally.

Qualifying going over 10 minutes is a bit much to me too and personally I wouldn't be mad if we did away with it completely.

My main point, when I first joined S.N.A.I.L. and said it would take an awful lot for me to file a complaint, there were quite a few of you who made it a point to call me names, say I was stupid for thinking that way, etc. Now you same 🤬 are doing exactly what you were pointing the finger at me for. Bunch of hypocrits...you know who you are.

 

[jobyone]

Your director needs to get some people moving then. In D2 we are right at the 10 minutes most of the time. Sometimes while waiting for track change and regulation change, we get up to 11 minutes.

On a seperate note, I would like to change my color combo to Sublime for the body and black for the wheels.

What color is sublime?

 

[JLBowler]

What color is sublime?

It's the lime green from the '70 Dodge Charger. I already checked the color wheel and it's not a conflict. The only other green in D2 is DrGreenThumb and his dark green.

 

[Apmaddock]

It's the lime green from the '70 Dodge Charger. I already checked the color wheel and it's not a conflict. The only other green in D2 is DrGreenThumb and his dark green.

…and a great color at that! It's just one spot away from my Green Go! It was a tough choice between the two for me.

Funny, I'd actually consider switching to your old silver/red colorshift now that it's open…but I probably won't. The John Deere cars have become a bit of an institution. (and I've no interest in duping)


I would always be for less qualifying and more racing and I've posted ideas on such before. That's mostly, though, because I'm not much good at hot laps.

 

[Luv2Coach]

Like some others here I strongly disagree with longer races will still result in aggressive drivers being aggressive. With more laps drivers will have more patience working they the field.

And finally, I use the stick too and have run the Aspect endurance races with no problems cramping. I am sure I am in the minority on that.

 

[saxplayer1998]

I think this could be necessary. I will only be able to race on days where I do not have school on the in-suing Monday. Like this week. But this week, I am sick, so I may or may not be able to participate. You could put me down as "pending further notice" or this week and time-to-time in the long term

 

[jobyone]

It's the lime green from the '70 Dodge Charger. I already checked the color wheel and it's not a conflict. The only other green in D2 is DrGreenThumb and his dark green.

Updated

 

[Chiochan]

From PSN site:


During this maintenance period, you may receive a message that states “PlayStation Network is undergoing maintenance” when attempting to access the PlayStation Store or PlayStation Home. As long as you have signed in to PSN within 5 days prior to the start of maintenance (meaning: any time since October 11th), you WILL be able to play games online and enjoy apps such as Netflix, HULU Plus and Music Unlimited during this maintenance period. So if you haven’t signed in to PSN in the last few days, we suggest you do so before the maintenance period begins Thursday morning.


Heads up.

 

[z06fun]

One thing about GT5 that tends to create over aggressive driving is the draft. I know in D1 we have very consistent drivers with very similar speed, so what tends to happen is the draft almost insures we all end up nose to tail (even on weak setting), but at the same time it makes it very hard to pass. Its very hard to pass someone who is in the draft when you are not, and if you are all single file you of course can't be in the draft while passing. This can easily lead to aggressive driving because it can be so hard to pass if you are the 3rd car back or more.

And then trying to out-drive the draft, that can be a huge exercise in frustration, and can easily lead to over aggressive driving by the leader, although it may not affect others as much.

Not much we can do about the draft though.

As for the reverse grid vs other options, my vote would be for a separate Q session for each race. I personally like quali because its the only time you can really see how you are doing vs. others since its draft free.

Great racing with you all last night, so glad I found this no-tuning races, wish I had more free time to join up.

 

[AMWeaver47]

(meaning: any time since October 11th)

?

Did maintenance begin that long ago?

 

[dabneyd]

As for the reverse grid vs other options, my vote would be for a separate Q session for each race. I personally like quali because its the only time you can really see how you are doing vs. others since its draft free.

Actually, since 2.08 (I think) there is draft during qualifying. It's either all on or all off.

 

[the2armedmen]

Why don't you guys just make a sloppy drivers division, where instead point penalties if a person gets a complaint they get moved into division sloppy to drive with all the other sloppy drivers. That and I think oshawas idea for all races to be reverse grid is great. Have one qualifying period for the first race and have that first race fastest first but every race after in reverse. That would add 5 minutes to every race and be fair at the same time since the reverse grid will basically create a random starting position (in relation to your own and other drivers skill) when the combo changes.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

That was supposed to be a joke because I was the catalyst for the testing Wednesday night.

 

[the2armedmen]

That was supposed to be a joke because I was the catalyst for the testing Wednesday night.

I know it was supposed to be a joke but once I started thinking about it it actually sounded good.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Yes it does.

 

[Apmaddock]

That's been tried before (for completely different reasons). It obviously didn't happen.

 

[Rallywagon]

Is that a joke joe?

Anywho. While i agree the draft causes issues coming into corners, its mostly by those that haven't learned to adjust their brake points. I don't think it causes aggressive driving. Most tracks only have one big straight, and perhaps a shorter second straight. But after that its all moot, since the draft really doesn't have an effect during corners. The fix its simply in changing peoples mindset and racecraft, and perhaps a reconsideration of how we go about assessing penalties. I think we rely to much on people policing themselves. The issue though is that we would need more, active, stewards. When sometimes acting a donkey, its usually verbally made known in a race. People say "hey dude, that's not cool" our some such comment. At that point, a steward or the race director should make note of that race and racer, and then at the directors meeting at the end of the night, everyone comes with their lists of disruptions and the stewards go to work. Obviously the system wet have now is not curbing bad racecraft like we want. Maybe instead of points we do a tally system. We could use a revised level system, and for every level, that amount is added to the tally. You get 10 marks. At say 5, you have to do remedial training, at 8, you get suspended for a time, at 10 you get the boot.

 

[IceWarden]

I think people just don't want to be the guy to file a complaint publicly. Maybe if complaints were anonymous then we would get more of them. We could then go through the replays with a more discerning eye on certain drivers as opposed to just "watching the replays" in general. Drivers get so spread out in some races that you'd have to watch the replay 5 times to cover what happened during the race.

Maybe let drivers send PM's to the stewards but not to the offending driver. Basically saying that they saw that driver do this and that. We could then watch that driver and make the assessment.

 

[IceWarden]

I also have a suggestion for the promotion/relegation process. I honestly don't know the actual process because none of it spills into the steward forum. But all the talk of fast drivers and promotions has me thinking there should be more to it (promoting drivers)than there seems to be.

I think the current process needs to be tweaked a bit to put drivers up for promotion under the microscope a bit more.

I don't think drivers on probation should get promoted. I personally have seen drivers get penalized for transgressions one week and get promoted the next. We have recently seen a driver get promoted one week and banned the next.

Instead of looking at race results and lap times. Maybe you could watch a few replays of his driving...especially when he starts in the back of the pack. This can alert you to bad driving habits that other drivers just don't feel like reporting (which may be cured if complaints/driver alerts were anonymous).

I know yesterday was a practice. But we should all still drive like human beings. I saw some moves attempted last night (a few by drivers whose names have been recently mentioned as going super fast) that were just horrendous. Practice or no, we should still drive like SNAILS. Maybe watch some of the drivers up for promotion on a wednesday night when they drive with people in higher divisions. This might help evaluate racecraft with people as fast as or faster than them to determine if they are ready to move up to a higher division.

Maybe the higher-ups could throw out the names of the people up for promotion in the steward forum. Then some of us could watch him during practice night or race night.

Just thinking out loud on my keyboard. It's easy to be faster when you disregard others, cut the track etc.

 

[Handlebar]

One thing to consider is one person's view of over aggressive driving is another person's version of decisive action...

If a driver has been hit with penalties, then others should not see repeated, level 3+ penalties in a replay.

To be frank, if you do see it, and do nothing, you are part of the problem.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Unfortunately the decisions made are aggressive and involve margin racecraft. We aren't talking about accidents. It's an attitude or mindset that borders on lack of respect and bullying. Someone was banned this week because of it.

 

[DrKronin]

I think people just don't want to be the guy to file a complaint publicly. Maybe if complaints were anonymous then we would get more of them. We could then go through the replays with a more discerning eye on certain drivers as opposed to just "watching the replays" in general. Drivers get so spread out in some races that you'd have to watch the replay 5 times to cover what happened during the race.

Maybe let drivers send PM's to the stewards but not to the offending driver. Basically saying that they saw that driver do this and that. We could then watch that driver and make the assessment.

I like this, but I think it has a fatal flaw. If the complaints are anonymous, it doesn't give the target of the report the opportunity to explain themself because the stewards won't be able to tell them where exactly the problem was without giving a pretty strong indication of who filed the complaint. This also makes it nearly impossible for them to improve, since they won't know what they did wrong.

I suppose it might work on the premise that there's a small chance that the complainer was a 3rd party to the incident, but I don't know.

 

[jobyone]

I also have a suggestion for the promotion/relegation process. I honestly don't know the actual process because none of it spills into the steward forum. But all the talk of fast drivers and promotions has me thinking there should be more to it (promoting drivers)than there seems to be.

I think the current process needs to be tweaked a bit to put drivers up for promotion under the microscope a bit more.

I don't think drivers on probation should get promoted. I personally have seen drivers get penalized for transgressions one week and get promoted the next. We have recently seen a driver get promoted one week and banned the next.

Instead of looking at race results and lap times. Maybe you could watch a few replays of his driving...especially when he starts in the back of the pack. This can alert you to bad driving habits that other drivers just don't feel like reporting (which may be cured if complaints/driver alerts were anonymous).

I know yesterday was a practice. But we should all still drive like human beings. I saw some moves attempted last night (a few by drivers whose names have been recently mentioned as going super fast) that were just horrendous. Practice or no, we should still drive like SNAILS. Maybe watch some of the drivers up for promotion on a wednesday night when they drive with people in higher divisions. This might help evaluate racecraft with people as fast as or faster than them to determine if they are ready to move up to a higher division.

Maybe the higher-ups could throw out the names of the people up for promotion in the steward forum. Then some of us could watch him during practice night or race night.

Just thinking out loud on my keyboard. It's easy to be faster when you disregard others, cut the track etc.

While I agree with the thought the reality is more complicated. Why should say division 3 have to suffer a driver that is significantly faster just because they are on probation? How does that help the S.N.A.I.L.s in D3?

Also I feel that sometimes promoting a driver on probation can actually bring the issue out
In a way that would not show up if left in the same division when the majority of the time the driver is out front with know one to interact with.

I also feel that the race craft score/reward could be used as a way to anonymously report smaller incidents and leave the larger complaints to the existing system.

 

[Apmaddock]

Your first two thoughts were demonstrated exactly this week.

 

[ExoSphere64]

So much to cover...

As far as the reverse grid goes, I am for keeping it as it is. It was interesting to try something different last night but just a little too quiet and boring. I am a regular fixture at the back and as a result, I often find myself at the very front on the reverse grid. That's when it really gets exciting for me. I know most of the field is faster than I am and I really enjoy running for my life out in front while I can. I have even managed to stay ahead of the wolves just long enough on a couple of occasions to see me some checkers!

Racecraft... There may be an element that hasn't really been brought to light yet. So far what I have read is that poor racecraft is a result of aggression, poor judgement and lack of character. Although in some instances this may just be the case. There are other reasons for sloppy racing like lack of knowledge, confidence and skill. You can memorize the OLR and still drive like Mr. Magoo. Take me for an example. I really take driving clean VERY seriously but there are times it may not appear that way. When I am neck deep in the pack I really try to keep my paint to myself but in most cases the harder I try the more contact I make. It is not out of aggression or a sense of urgency to get to the front, it is purely lack of skill that gets me into trouble. I would be willing to bet that a larger percentage of incidents are due to lack of training than just intentional dirty driving. Take a look at all of the GT games to date. The actual game itself teaches us that banging around is how you play the game. Even the seasonals encourage rough driving. Unless you are a GT Academy level driver, you almost HAVE to be a little pushy to win. Yes, punish those that are clearly breaking the rules on purpose but maybe we could train all of us other offenders. (Teach a man to fish and all...)

A few pages ago, Goat brought up something that I have had in the back of my mind for quite awhile. Set up training night that focuses on driving in the pack. Start with a group of willing drivers. Set boost all the way up to gee whiz and start the run. The idea would be to stay together and not fucus on "winning". Make the rules simple: ANY contact, however slight, you fade to the back. Work your way to the front clean, fade to the back and so forth. Having one of our premier drivers (or several) there for pointers, tips and tricks would be a bonus. The whole idea is to learn how to drive in close proximity, get comfortable, learn the skill. Maybe this would be the way to really foster great racecraft.... IMHO

 

[IceWarden]

Promoting someone who already can't drive safely with others is counterproductive.

 

[Rallywagon]

hmh, I've been on the penalty system train, I forgot about the report card zer0 mentioned. I like the idea, but not to just one set question of rate their racecraft. Like someone some odd posts back said. Some questions along the lines of how they hit brake points, how in control they keep the car, how clean did they pass? And maybe add "how is there race craft in general?", for the people that you see for a lap or two then vanish as they move to the front or rear of the pack. Also have perhaps a comments box on the bottom, so they can get some critiques.
Not trying to get out of hand, but it would be rad to have some kind of website that would allow each driver to make a little custom SNAIL profile, and set up a rating system that would allow others to make one rating report for each driver in their division a week, anonymously.
My concern though with even a simple system like this will be lots of datalogging, but also require max participation. I mean to be fully effective, we would need no less then 85% of every division in order for this to be acceptably unbias from division to division and even racer to racer. because this something that may be rated by peers in a racers division, this system will be displayed league wide, not divisionally.

A few pages ago, Goat brought up something that I have had in the back of my mind for quite awhile. Set up training night that focuses on driving in the pack. Start with a group of willing drivers. Set boost all the way up to gee whiz and start the run. The idea would be to stay together and not fucus on "winning". Make the rules simple: ANY contact, however slight, you fade to the back. Work your way to the front clean, fade to the back and so forth. Having one of our premier drivers (or several) there for pointers, tips and tricks would be a bonus. The whole idea is to learn how to drive in close proximity, get comfortable, learn the skill. Maybe this would be the way to really foster great racecraft.... IMHO

This is a great idea! Maybe this is something that can be incorperated into Wednesday night practices.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

It did however get the job done this week.

Anyway, I think most of the issues involve corner rights, contact in corners and such. Maybe the OLR needs to better define and explain what is and isn't acceptable.

 

[zer05ive]

A few pages ago, Goat brought up something that I have had in the back of my mind for quite awhile. Set up training night that focuses on driving in the pack. Start with a group of willing drivers. Set boost all the way up to gee whiz and start the run. The idea would be to stay together and not fucus on "winning". Make the rules simple: ANY contact, however slight, you fade to the back. Work your way to the front clean, fade to the back and so forth. Having one of our premier drivers (or several) there for pointers, tips and tricks would be a bonus. The whole idea is to learn how to drive in close proximity, get comfortable, learn the skill. Maybe this would be the way to really foster great racecraft.... IMHO

This is a great idea! Maybe this is something that can be incorperated into Wednesday night practices.

I'm not sure how something like that could be incorporated into Wednesday's practice simply because we try to simulate Sunday's format as closely as possible. What about doing it on the 4th Monday of every month, or just Mondays in general if there's nothing else scheduled that night?

That being said, I like the idea of incorporating practice into this. Therefore, we could simply run the combo that got the least number of elimination votes on the night before. After all, on Monday night the only thing we know about the next week's line up is the one combo that will remain unchanged.

 

[hillracing]

I think one thing we could do to improve things is if you get a penalty instead of just "you've got a Level 2 5 point penalty", have a PM sent to the offending party saying you got this penalty because you were to far behind at turn in to have position which was decided to be the cause of the contact. In the future you should either establish better position before turn in or back out of a similar pass attempt. Any questions you have on this can be sent to your steward who'd be more than happy to answer your questions.

This would help handle the education part of it in a simple way that would also give the offending driver some options on what to do next time so the mistake isn't made. I think the point that most drivers don't intend to crash others out is valid. I think this can help with those that intend to race well but don't have the knowledge yet.