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[Apmaddock]

If you can out-brake the ahead guy and establish overlap before turn-in then you have rights to your lane. If not, you don't.

I've done both of what Joe's quote recommends. Pulling into a different lane isn't always an attempt to get ahead in that turn, just to guarantee that you won't rear-end him during braking. It just gives you some cushion. Like cheeb said, too, you can gain almost as much ground at the end of the braking zone as the beginning, so don't be afraid to slow down early.

If drivers are side by side through a turn (or several turns) the track isn't split right down the middle. Both drivers should be giving room to the other, but both should be on their own racing line.

Think of it in terms of dividing the racing line, not the track. The racing line would still be out-in-out in most cases, so there would be two lanes doing that. As the inside driver, allow room on the outside for the other car, make your apex tight, then go outside on the way out of the turn, but still expect to have to leave room for the other car outside of you.

 

[Chiochan]

In a rare event I am actually home and will be online from 4:30-6:00 est. anyone likely to be around for practice/fun?

sounds good.

 

[Luv2Coach]

In a rare event I am actually home and will be online from 4:30-6:00 est. anyone likely to be around for practice/fun?

Likely but not absolutely positive

 

[jobyone]

sounds good.

Are you done with you antics with Panda

 

[Luv2Coach]

If you can out-brake the ahead guy and establish overlap before turn-in then you have rights to your lane. If not, you don't.

I've done both of what Joe's quote recommends. Pulling into a different lane isn't always an attempt to get ahead in that turn, just to guarantee that you won't rear-end him during braking. It just gives you some cushion. Like cheeb said, too, you can gain almost as much ground at the end of the braking zone as the beginning, so don't be afraid to slow down early.

I use this technique as well. It also helps in very a run on front car out of corner.

Think of it in terms of dividing the racing line, not the track. The racing line would still be out-in-out in most cases, so there would be two lanes doing that. As the inside driver, allow room on the outside for the other car, make your apex tight, then go outside on the way out of the turn, but still expect to have to leave room for the other car outside of you.

To make sure I understand, you are saying the outside driver drive toward the "outside edge" as he exits which in turn allows the inside guy to do the same type of exit. Basically both cars can exit toward outside. Correct?

 

[zer05ive]

I might have been on the last chance list, but I was off of probation as I drove enough weeks with no complaints to kill my - I don't know? - 6 week probation.

No. You weren't.

According to a PM you sent to me, I had two weeks left, I THEN raced two sundays in D3, then got promoted to D2 so I wasn't on probation anymore... don't tell me 1+1 != 2. Obviously I don't have the PM anymore, else I would've quoted it.

Then I must have told you wrongly…*perhaps I thought the list hadn't been updated yet when it had, because you're still on the probation list.

Maxime,
During the November 4th races, you received multiple penalties (while already on probation) and therefore your probation remained at the maximum six weeks. After many PM"s between us discussing your driving, I decided to create the Last Chance List and I put you on it.

On December 12th, you PM'd me asking about probation and I replied with this:

...probation weeks don't go away unless you drive an entire Sunday night without incurring any penalties. So if you were on probation when you stopped racing, you'd have the same number of weeks left to "clear out".

With that in mind, here is your racing history since your were put on the Last Chance List:

November 11 (only 4 out of 6 races)
November 18th (only 3 out of 6 races)
December 2nd (only 4 out of 6 races)
December 30th (entire night)
January 6th (entire night)

As you can see, you only raced five times after being put on the Last Chance List. And out of the those five times, you only completed the entire night twice. Therefore, you were still had four weeks of probation remaining when you raced on January 13th. Therefore, you were banned from the league based on the stipulation at the very bottom of the Last Chance List:

Drivers on the Last chance List can get off the list by simply getting off probation. In other words, if a driver drives penalty-free for enough weeks to have their probation lifted, they will be removed from the Last Chance List as well.

edit: Yesterday's practice wasn't so much different than being in D3...
round 1: 1st, 1st
round 2: 1st, 2nd (lost control at some point)
round 3: 1st, 1st
Most passes were too easy to make...

Last night, the Blue Room raced in the D1 lounge only because we were recording our qualifying procedure and didn't want Open Lobby racers ruining the footage. As you know both rooms are usually in the Open Lobby so please join the Blue Room instead of the Red Room if you want to try to prove to us that you can drive cleanly versus other drivers that are of a similar pace.

 

[Luv2Coach]

Reply in ref. to my post with Ap. Provided there is room to do so, track width permitting.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

That's what I thought, but according Joe's post from his resource it seems to conflict our way of racing. In any case, I will continue to err on the side of caution and make sure of overlap.

On a personal note, I like Joe's quoted resource provided the drivers understand that it would then divide the track into inside/outside lanes throughout the turn into the straight. However, I understand our rule and will abide as such.

The quote I made from the iracing site is explaining that the faster driver should not be on the slower drivers arse heading into the braking zone or through the corner, but instead let off a bit (a la kcheeb's explanation ) or move off the race line to take advantage of late braking. Either way, if overlap is not established prior to the lead car turning in / end of braking zone, then the car making the attempt needs to fall back, skillfully maintain higher apex speed (not something I can do) and execute the pass cleanly on exit or down the straight.

The track is only " split in two" if the driver attempting the pass has established full overlap by end of the braking zone. In this situation the cars are considered to have equal rights to the corner, effectively splitting the track in two; one driver taking the inside line and one taking the outside line, leaving each other space the entire time.

The difficult part to judge on the track and possibly even to understand is that there is a gray zone where a late braking pass starts to feel a lot like a dive bomb on a slower driver. Some drivers really push this marker getting themselves into dangerous situations and getting others upset. There was a post about being courteous to drivers during blue flags as such. There is probably nothing more courteous than giving the lead car a bit more space in this "gray area" of late braking in attempt for overlap /pass that separates a good pass from a dive bomb. Leave the blue flags for the lapped traffic. If maxime understands this he would have no problems because he is obviously highly skilled in other respects.

Here is a good video.

 

[JLBowler]

Overlap at entry only applies to who has the corner rights. If you don't have overlap, you are still allowed to try a pass but the lead car is allowed to take whatever line they desire and don't have to leave you any room. If the trailing driver had overlap, then the lead car must give room. If the trailing driver goes for the apex late and didn't have overlap, they shouldn't be surpised if the lead car comes down and there is contact. It would be the fault of the trailing driver and he should expect the lead driver to not be too happy and expect a penalty.

It is possible to execute a pass without having overlap at turn in. All of the responsibility falls on the trailing driver to avoid contact in that situation. Basically, if you don't have overlap, it's on you to avoid all contact at all costs.

 

[Apmaddock]

Basically, yes. It would be the most economical for both drivers. If you cut the track width too much you're both going to lose way too much speed. I'm not advocating that you try to leave exactly one car width for the other guy. That's impossible (especially in sim racing). Just leave enough that lets the other guy race safely.


Put another way: The outside guy should leave room on the inside at the apex, and the inside guy should leave room on the outside at turn exit.

 

[Luv2Coach]

Overlap at entry only applies to who has the corner rights. If you don't have overlap, you are still allowed to try a pass but the lead car is allowed to take whatever line they desire and don't have to leave you any room. If the trailing driver had overlap, then the lead car must give room. If the trailing driver goes for the apex late and didn't have overlap, they shouldn't be surpised if the lead car comes down and there is contact. It would be the fault of the trailing driver and he should expect the lead driver to not be too happy and expect a penalty.

It is possible to execute a pass without having overlap at turn in. All of the responsibility falls on the trailing driver to avoid contact in that situation. Basically, if you don't have overlap, it's on you to avoid all contact at all costs.

This is exactly what I thought but I fear a lot of drivers fail to recognize this. Hence, the complaints. Thing is this is not understood by all, as mentioned. Especially the part where lead car does not have to give room. Therefore I don't press this issue.

 

[OwensRacing]

Fwiw on the dirt tracks we've raced at the Blue with yellow diagonal stripe is flown to a lapped driver. Indicating the lead cars are coming and move up the track to allow them by.

They will black flag you if you don't respect this.

As mentioned holding up an extremely fast racer doesn't help you. Letting them by cleanly and sucking off their draft will greatly increase your lap time. Spreading your gap from a behind driver or allowing you to catch one in front.

It's all about respect and integrity. Race how you want to be raced.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

This is exactly what I thought but I fear a lot of drivers fail to recognize this. Hence, the complaints. Thing is this is not understood by all, as mentioned. Especially the part where lead car does not have to give room. Therefore I don't press this issue.

That really confused me coach.

 

[Handlebar]

I beg some of you... Please do not quote and requote walls of text. It does little to clarify many of the responses posted after the quotation.

If the part is relevant, I see the point...

 

[JLBowler]

Fwiw on the dirt tracks we've raced at the Blue with yellow diagonal stripe is flown to a lapped driver. Indicating the lead cars are coming and move up the track to allow them by.

They will black flag you if you don't respect this.

As mentioned holding up an extremely fast racer doesn't help you. Letting them by cleanly and sucking off their draft will greatly increase your lap time. Spreading your gap from a behind driver or allowing you to catch one in front.

It's all about respect and integrity. Race how you want to be raced.

That's how the flag is used on the dirt tracks I run as well. It's also used this way on short tracks around the country. Outside of multi class racing, I have never been around any style of racing that will show the blue flag to a driver who is racing for position. It's there to let the driver being lapped know that the leader is behind them and they should not interfere with the race for position that is coming up behind them that they are not a part of.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I think you guys are a couple pages behind today.

 

[JLBowler]

Too many conversations going on over the top of each other. That's why I've been quoting what I'm responding to. Hopefully it makes it a little easier to follow.

 

[jobyone]

Having some fun...

closed

... I hope

Thanks Goat, Luv, Weaver, Tex. We had a good time practicing. We started running single lap races to practice starts and running on cold tires. I would highly recommend this. We all spend a lot of time running fast laps and racing but may only get a few starts on cold tires. The repeated short laps races really helped me know where to brake on the first lap. I wonder if doing something like that rather than practicing qualifying on wed would be worth a try:idea:

We eventually started running 2 lap races to lengthen it out a bit. Thanks for the racing guys.

 

[Wolfsatz]

Am I the only person that uses the large, full course, fixed position map? Everyone makes a big deal about it, but I don't use it for close proximity racing at all. If I get a big lead or run off I can use it to judge gaps and that's it. The rest of the time I use the look back, left, right, listen, and my prior knowledge of the racer to judge their position and most likely move. That's why I race more conservatively around unfamiliar racers, but have no problem following (or being followed by ) Goat lap after lap within two feet of him.

It was my understanding that this is the expected awareness/effort you were to put into racing. Either a lot of people are slacking or I'm doing a lot of extra (but IMO necessary) work.

Here's an answer to your question:

Someone yesterday told me that they never use the map, when i ask why you didnt hold your line when you made it 2 wide into a tight corner? 'I didn't see you so i assume i passed you'
It is obvious that reading the OLR is just an illusion.

I like the idea of filing complaints on Wednesday Practice so Racecraft and enjoyment of all racers is improved.

Many seem to think that because is practice Racecraft is not important! Or at least they drive that way.

'Dude we are just practicing

This is where I have issues: The breaking zone. Say I do this (pop inside...) before the zone but do not have overlap. Has the track now been divided into two parts; inside line & outside line? If so, the inside driver must stay inside throughout the entire turn into the straight: correct?

In my experience overall, when I am the outside driver, I get pushed out by the inside driver because he doesn't stay inside throughout the turn all the way into the straight. I have done this and been accused of dive bombing. Therefore, I don't even attempt it anymore.

This is exactly what I am referring to.

 

[moutonguerrier]

Thanks for clarifying all of this. You couldn't be more right.

Regarding yesterday's room, I thought you actually made it in a Division lounge so I couldn't come into it. Why? Because I was told that I was banned from the Division lounges and thus cannot have access to.

Maxime,
During the November 4th races, you received multiple penalties (while already on probation) and therefore your probation remained at the maximum six weeks. After many PM"s between us discussing your driving, I decided to create the Last Chance List and I put you on it.

On December 12th, you PM'd me asking about probation and I replied with this:


With that in mind, here is your racing history since your were put on the Last Chance List:

November 11 (only 4 out of 6 races)
November 18th (only 3 out of 6 races)
December 2nd (only 4 out of 6 races)
December 30th (entire night)
January 6th (entire night)

As you can see, you only raced five times after being put on the Last Chance List. And out of the those five times, you only completed the entire night twice. Therefore, you were still had four weeks of probation remaining when you raced on January 13th. Therefore, you were banned from the league based on the stipulation at the very bottom of the Last Chance List:

Drivers on the Last chance List can get off the list by simply getting off probation. In other words, if a driver drives penalty-free for enough weeks to have their probation lifted, they will be removed from the Last Chance List as well.



Last night, the Blue Room raced in the D1 lounge only because we were recording our qualifying procedure and didn't want Open Lobby racers ruining the footage. As you know both rooms are usually in the Open Lobby so please join the Blue Room instead of the Red Room if you want to try to prove to us that you can drive cleanly versus other drivers that are of a similar pace.

 

[AJKVail]

Thanks to Bowler, kcheeb (the 2 voices of reason) Ice, appmadock and the others that keep trying to enlighten drivers to the OLR regarding corner rights and the "golden rule". The lack of respect for what our administrators have put together for us to enjoy continues to place a black cloud over this league! Bottom line, if you have not established the over lap before the turn in, you have no right to the turn.
This is very simple and clear! Read it, learn it, and get in line!
And now onto something completely different, when will we see the "post of shame" from last Sunday!
Thank you and good day!

 

[Apmaddock]

It took a long time to get some of the videos up. The post should be coming soon.

 

[zer05ive]

A couple of weeks ago I ran my first Wednesday practice since I joined Snail. I was wanting to check it out. The first thing I thought was there were waaay to many racers in here to be getting any kind of practice. I kinda figured Snail would have each division room set up with one race track.
For example:
Division 1 - first combo running races every 20 min.
Division 2 - second combo
Division 3 - third combo.

Then you could just jump into a room that you wanted to race. If you were having trouble running the third combo then u could go to division 3 and run there.

I like that idea but not as a replacement for what we currently do. That idea would be awesome if each room had a driving coach that would show proper lines and braking points, and offer tips etc. Maybe we only need one room.

Thursday tutoring?

this is a cool idea but i don't want to change the practice format. I think we should use this for impromptu practice sessions.

I like this idea too, but not to replace the Wednesday night format. For impromptu practice sessions, it certainly does seem to make sense at first glance. It's simply inevitable that not everyone wants or needs to practice the same combos as everyone else. Assigning each combo to a corresponding lounge would fix that.

However, I do see two major downsides.. First of all, managing the friends list for each of the divisional accounts is a complete PITA. I'm constantly having to power my PS3 on and off to add new drivers (and delete old drivers to make room for them). So assuming everyone would want access to all three of the proposed practice lounges, managing this would be three times as painful for me. Not to mention the fact that we'd have to reassign where all of our other events race since they all take place in the D2 lounge right now.

Also, with this proposed lounge structure, a driver would have to leave the D1 lounge if he's done practicing the combo for Round 1, and then go to the D2 lounge when he wants to practice the combo for Round 2. I'd say that creates about five minutes of downtime for the driver due to the tediousness of exiting and entering lounges and choosing the correct settings. Would anyone really be willing to do that instead of just changing the car and track when they wanted to work on something else?

I'd like to hear from the guys who practice in the D1 lounge regularly regarding this proposal. What do you all think about this idea? Would it be better to keep practice centralized in one lounge so that we can maximize the number of guys in there at any given time (usually not more than a handful at a time as it is). Or do you guys find yourselves disagreeing (out loud or thinking to yourself) on which car and track combo to practice to the point that it would be a good idea to separate things out? Please share your thoughts.

 

[Wolfsatz]

Everyone else, please join with your best racecraft the:
RED ROOM
SNAIL RED PRACTICE RM
1472 6118 3701 4253 6505

ATTENTION DIVISION 5,4 AND RED ROOM D3 DRIVERS

RED ROOM IS LOOKING FOR A HOST

If you have a fast internet conexion and want to host the RED PRACTICE ROOM on Wednesday nights please PM.

 

[IceWarden]

I would be against the separate lounge idea. Wednesday is basically a practice for Sunday...format and all. If someone wants to practice something in particular then there are 164 more hours throughout the week to do so (168 minus the 2 on sun and 2 on wed).

People practice around here all the time but Wednesday is the only time we all get together and do a Sunday simulation.

 

[fzappa]

I would be against the separate lounge idea. Wednesday is basically a practice for Sunday...format and all. If someone wants to practice something in particular then there are 164 more hours throughout the week to do so (168 minus the 2 on sun and 2 on wed).

People practice around here all the time but Wednesday is the only time we all get together and do a Sunday simulation.

Well said!

 

[kendawg]

I wasn't saying that we should replace this with the Wednesday night format. I was just thinking "practice"

I know when I raced when we had practice days there would be 30 minute practice sessions with your group. Kinda like your divisions in Snail.

I was just thinking this might help some guys that needed some practice with certain tracks and cars. Like me with the Caterham. I don't think you would need a stewart. I think anyone of us could set a room up and start races.

Just a thought that might help us.

 

[AMWeaver47]

I would be against the separate lounge idea. Wednesday is basically a practice for Sunday...format and all. If someone wants to practice something in particular then there are 164 more hours throughout the week to do so (168 minus the 2 on sun and 2 on wed).

People practice around here all the time but Wednesday is the only time we all get together and do a Sunday simulation.

That actually makes a lot of sense. I guess I could see it both ways. I don't see much point in practicing for something like the Caterham at Cape Ring since we raced there so much, although someone may really be struggling with it and be fine with the other combos. The person struggling would use the practice room with the Caterham.

I say leave it alone, practice on your own time ya' whiners...

 

[the2armedmen]

"We talkin about practice" - Allen Iverson

 

[Handlebar]

If you want him as a role model, you can have him...

:-)