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[Rallywagon]

I feel d3 is sort of the fudge room division. Its obvioius when someone should be running in d1 and d2, and same for d5, and a bit for d4. but when you are not quite sure if they belong in d2, or if they might be a little fast for d4, maybe, we then get the racer. I have to say, more drivers move out of d3 then any other division. Probably a middle child symptom... I think we also have had more mid season moves as well.

To comment a touch more on my above statement, I also think that d3 blends more then the other division as well, by that I mean, the top half of d3 can probably run well with d2 and d1. And the lower half is the same with the lower two divisions. But that is just, like, my opinion, man.

 

[dabneyd]

I vote 2, but I also would like to add that we should think about not allowing new members to win a prize until their second month. I think this would allow new drivers to more accurately be placed amongst their equals and give them time to ensure they mesh with the league.

 

[JLBowler]

They are learning to drive. I won prizes about 5 weeks in a row at one point and I was in the right division up until that point. I sucked before I was snailing and alot of us can probably say the same

I would beg to differ with this point. If anyone wins their division five weeks in a row, they were not in the right division at the beginning of that streak. They should have started higher than they did.

If it's really the case that guys are not putting the effort into the time trial then the data from all of our time trials is probably not the best thing to use to place new drivers.

My gut tells me that if a guy runs his time trial and starts in D5 and he is running times in the races that are on par with D2 right off the bat, something isn't right with that.

I vote 2, but I also would like to add that we should think about not allowing new members to win a prize until their second month. I think this would allow new drivers to more accurately be placed amongst their equals and give them time to ensure they mesh with the league.

I though about saying this but didn't want to deal with the crying I thought might ensue. Since you said it, I wholeheartedly agree with this. Call it a new driver evaluation period and make sure they are in the right spot.

 

[zer05ive]

I vote 2, but I also would like to add that we should think about not allowing new members to win a prize until their second month. I think this would allow new drivers to more accurately be placed amongst their equals and give them time to ensure they mesh with the league.

I though about saying this but didn't want to deal with the crying I though might ensue. Since you said it, I wholeheartedly agree with this. Call it a new driver evaluation period and make sure they are in the right spot.

I'm in favor of this too. In a way, it reminds me of our ol' Rookie Rule.

 

[Handlebar]

Having been smoked by grossly misplaced drivers, I completely agree.

Finish 18 races (3 nights) without penalty to become combo-eligible... Or something similar.

 

[zegrated]

I agree with that as well.

 

[dangerzone641]

They are learning to drive. I won prizes about 5 weeks in a row at one point and I was in the right division up until that point. I sucked before I was snailing and alot of us can probably say the same

I for one know exactly what you mean. When I first joined SNAIL, I could barely keep up with the D5 guys, but after a few weeks I decided to practice more often and I started to do well, I wasn't able to race every Sunday night so I stayed in D5 for a while. Some people had been saying that I was placed in the wrong division from the time trial but people can improve and they aren't fast right when they join SNAIL. So just keep that in mind

 

[soundtiger95]

I disagree with not allowing new drivers to win one of the prizes. We're all here because we love racing and we want to have fun but we also want to win. What's the point of racing for a win if you know you aren't going to receive a reward? You're going to have a lot of unmotivated racers and many people will not want to join if they know they will not be able to select a prize if they have a great night. I for one would be pretty mad if I won prize A but because I was new the prize didn't even go to me. Prizes should be given to the best drivers on that night, not to the person who was in the league longer.

Maybe instead of something that drastic we could have all new drivers send all of their lap times for the time trial instead of just one?

 

[Dragonwhisky]

With all this in mind, please submit your vote by replying with one of these two choices:

1. current multiplier
2. new formula

I will abstain.

What zer0? Alright, Okay! Point that thing some other way, would ya?

2

If voting for a New Driver Prize Probationary Period is open, I vote yes for it. Don't really care what form it takes, as long as there is one.

It's always been in the back of my mind that some, not all, folks, sand bag, just a little bit, when submitting their entrance TT results.

I disagree with not allowing new drivers to win one of the prizes. We're all here because we love racing and we want to have fun but we also want to win. What's the point of racing for a win if you know you aren't going to receive a reward? You're going to have a lot of unmotivated racers and many people will not want to join if they know they will not be able to select a prize if they have a great night. I for one would be pretty mad if I won prize A but because I was new the prize didn't even go to me. Prizes should be given to the best drivers on that night, not to the person who was in the league longer.

Maybe instead of something that drastic we could have all new drivers send all of their lap times for the time trial instead of just one?

If you're here for "rewards" outside of the joy of racing and the heat of competition, you may want to re-evaluate whether you're in the right place. While I agree, winning is more fun than losing, I will qualify that with, I would rather lose by one than win by 100.

I was in the exact opposite of some folks who blasted up through divisions. I ran my TT as hard as I could at the time and got placed in D2, where it was plainly evident after the first night, I did not belong there. I'm not sure what steps we could take as a league to get a truer representation of a person's skill, with the tools we presently have, to get a body placed in the appropriate division in a timely fashion, for their first night. Short of requiring a replay submission anyway.

 

[Xradkins]

1 = Current formula. I like the formula to stay the same for all of GT5 SNAIL. Wait until GT6 to start changing.

 

[Nicktune]

Anyone play world of tanks?

Yes

Vote 2 (new formula). It's the right time to experiment before GT6 is released.

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Progress waits for no one.

 

[chatva]

I was curious as to how the prize distribution had broken down over the last few months and I found something else in the process. I had to back to April 7 to find that last time that the winner of D5 didn't win a prize. Most of the time it was won by a driver that was new to S.N.A.I.L. and would be moved up at the end of the month. Am I alone in thinking that maybe some of these new guys are not being placed in the right division? Are they really learning that fast or are they maybe not putting in the full effort on their time trial? Is the time trial that we have not accurate in placing drivers in the correct division? Maybe we should place new drivers one division up just to see if they can hang there? I'll admit, I haven't studied the mountains of data, I've only done the eyeball test on the results.

They sandbag? They're time trial!

 

[DrKronin]

I like the new driver probation period, but I have a question: What happens when a new driver ends up with a score that would have won him Prize A? Do we just strike the score and move to the next highest adjusted division winner score? If so, that still disadvantages the rest of his division. It protects the other division winners, but 1/5 of SNAIL still loses out on a chance for a prize.

Alternatively, you could add one point to everyone's score that finishes behind that driver in each race he competes in. That allows second place in that division to achieve the score they theoretically (roughly speaking) would have had if the new driver wasn't there.

In any case, I like the idea. The devil's in the details.

 

[JLBowler]

They sandbag? They're time trial!

I didn't say that. I might have meant that but I didn't say it.

As for not changing until GT6 comes out. GT6 is going to be a big enough change in of itself. Any changes we can make and iron out before it's release will only put us ahead of the game when GT6 does launch.

 

[kcheeb]

There seems to be a focus on looking at the new drivers that stay in S.N.A.I.L. and when they win, deciding they've been placed in the wrong division. I've recently been looking at it from a different perspective. We have many, many more people that I feel were placed in too high a division. I don't have numbers (for shame, for shame) but being close to the placement of drivers, points etc. I notice many more drivers join, don't do well in one or two weeks of racing and disappear. We follow up with most, but seldom get a reply.

The drivers that tend to stick around seem to have a few things in common (remember I'm talking generalities here):

1. They do reasonably well in their first few weeks.
2. They have some experience racing with real live people in GT5 (not just AI or time trials)
3. They find a group that they have something in common with (personality, interests etc.) and want to continue.

There have been very few people that were obviously placed in the wrong division and when they were identified, they were moved. The rest were marginal and deserved a chance to outright win the division.

Let's face it, placing unknown drivers into divisions is a black art at best, no matter how you measure them. The ones without much racing experience will not do well right off the bat, the ones that have some experience will do ok, the ones that didn't put much effort into the time trial will likely have a good run at their division. We run fairly intense sprint races and most people aren't prepared for S.N.A.I.L. Sunday night right off the get go.

I think we've set up a good simple system for getting new drivers placed and we're flexible enough to make changes as they are needed. No system is going to be foolproof when it comes to figuring out where new drivers should be placed.

 

[Dragonwhisky]

I didn't say that. I might have meant that but I didn't say it.

You may not have. But I did.

So cheeb, you trying to say you and zer0 are master black magicians? The entire placement system is fully at the mercy of the honesty and integrity of the individuals submitting their results. To be brutally honest, that as many get properly placed as happens might be something more than simple black magic.

 

[bandit0627]

Yes

I posted that couple days ago... but I now know someone who plays it...

 

[chatva]

You may not have. But I did.

So cheeb, you trying to say you and zer0 are master black magicians? The entire placement system is fully at the mercy of the honesty and integrity of the individuals submitting their results. To be brutally honest, that as many get properly placed as happens might be something more than simple black magic.

Ditto!

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Anyone have a broken in Citron they can put on share for a few minutes?

 

[the2armedmen]

I would beg to differ with this point. If anyone wins their division five weeks in a row, they were not in the right division at the beginning of that streak. They should have started higher than they did.

If it's really the case that guys are not putting the effort into the time trial then the data from all of our time trials is probably not the best thing to use to place new drivers.

My gut tells me that if a guy runs his time trial and starts in D5 and he is running times in the races that are on par with D2 right off the bat, something isn't right with that.

I didn't even know that there was a correct driving line before I was in snail, nor did I even know what breaking in cars means or that it makes a difference. You may be overestimating people's previous experiences with the game and racing in general. Gt5 is actually the second driving game that I have ever bought. The experience gained from driving with guys who are really helpful (a la Oshawa joe, skills, owensracing, and dare I say coach) taught me more about driving within a short timespan than I could have gained from anywhere else. Albeit you are probably right about people who start in d5 and are running d2 times right off the bat, not sure of how often that happens tho. It took me a few months for the "snail effect" to take place

 

[soundtiger95]

If you're here for "rewards" outside of the joy of racing and the heat of competition, you may want to re-evaluate whether you're in the right place. While I agree, winning is more fun than losing, I will qualify that with, I would rather lose by one than win by 100.

I agree 100%. For me, competition and racing is enough. For others, they may want to race because they are good and want to win.

I just don't see why we should punish new drivers. If someone has a good night then good for them. Reward them with one of the prizes. If they really are placed incorrectly then they will be promoted the next season. I would just hate to see changes made that would directly effect the standings.

By the way my vote is for 2 (new formula)

 

[chatva]

I didn't even know that there was a correct driving line before I was in snail, nor did I even know what breaking in cars means or that it makes a difference. You may be overestimating people's previous experiences with the game and racing in general. Gt5 is actually the second driving game that I have ever bought. The experience gained from driving with guys who are really helpful (a la Oshawa joe, skills, owensracing, and dare I say coach) taught me more about driving within a short timespan than I could have gained from anywhere else. Albeit you are probably right about people who start in d5 and are running d2 times right off the bat, not sure of how often that happens tho. It took me a few months for the "snail effect" to take place

👍 that's great for you! Great racers with tons of experience is who refer to.

 

[JLBowler]

@KCheeb

It needs to work the other way as well. A time trial with questionable time and effort put into it can only go so far to get a guy in the right spot. A driver may be great at a time trial but can't get out of his own way on a track with 10 other drivers. We should be looking closer at our new members and their performance on track. If they magically find speed they didn't show in the time trial then they need to move up. If they don't have the racing skills to handle traffic and be consistent then they might need to move down to find their legs.

I don't have a problem with a guy that runs for a few weeks and then gets some help and starts practicing the right way and gets faster. I have a problem with the new guy that comes in with a slow time trial and then shows speed that is three divisions higher than where they were placed.

By watching our new drivers, we can use the time trial as a starting point and use their first two or three nights to really figure out where they belong. Maybe they could win a prize during this time, but if they did, they would have to move up immediately.

 

[kcheeb]

@Bowler You reiterated what I said in my post, so I'm thinking you don't think I do a good enough job.

Have at 'er. I'll make the data available to you, enjoy 👍

 

[JLBowler]

@Bowler You reiterated what I said in my post, so I'm thinking you don't think I do a good enough job.

Have at 'er. I'll make the data available to you, enjoy 👍

I think you do a wonderful job. I was agreeing with you for the most part. I guess in my beating around the bush, I haven't really said what I feel the problem.

There have been a few drivers that have abused our system of division placement by sandbagging their time trial to get placed in a lower division and dominating the prizes. The only thing I want to do is try and prevent this from happening going forward. It really is the actions of a few that are creating a problem in this case but it is an issue (I feel) that needs to be addressed and dealt with.

So with no further beating around the bush, how do we deal with the sandbaggers?

 

[DrKronin]

Anyone have a broken in Citron they can put on share for a few minutes?

Done.

 

[soundtiger95]

I don't know about anyone else but for me personally, I am terrible at time trials and racing by myself but I do much better when racing against others. Maybe it's because of the competition or having to keep up with the field. but I've noticed that my best time during a race is, in some cases, 3-5 seconds faster than in qualifying. I don't belong in a higher division in my opinion. Maybe this could be the case for others?

 

[Wolfsatz]

Anyone have a broken in Citron they can put on share for a few minutes?

Done!


1 or 2 practice rooms for tonight?

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Have it. Thank you DrK and wolf.

My DFPro appears to be stuck in 200 degree rotation