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[GlennGolfer1]

Got a question, but before I ask it, I want to preface it with a disclaimer, lol, I don't want to use driving aids, ok, everybody hear that? Ok, with that said, I'm wondering why driving aids are not allowed, don't driving aids make you slower? Last night there was a gentleman who obviously had problems, and left the room saying something about driving aids, and it made me think, most people would get embarrassed if they get beat like I do, I don't like it, but I'm trying my best and I'm not a quitter, but wouldn't most do what that guy did last night and just leave to never return? I would think with seat time, like Sharkie said, these folks, would want to turn their aids off in order to compete, am I missing something? I may be, I'm new at this game, and this club, but I'm thinking the no aids thing really limits this group, I am thinking maybe a fourth room for newcomers that is aids allowed, and if they win with no aids they can advance, I don't know, not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand.

 

[dudeondacouch]

There you go.

Tell your employer to stop being so anal.

Department of Defense,

Please stop being so anal.



V/R

dudeondacouch





Think this will work?

 

[dudeondacouch]

Got a question, but before I ask it, I want to preface it with a disclaimer, lol, I don't want to use driving aids, ok, everybody hear that? Ok, with that said, I'm wondering why driving aids are not allowed, don't driving aids make you slower? Last night there was a gentleman who obviously had problems, and left the room saying something about driving aids, and it made me think, most people would get embarrassed if they get beat like I do, I don't like it, but I'm trying my best and I'm not a quitter, but wouldn't most do what that guy did last night and just leave to never return? I would think with seat time, like Sharkie said, these folks, would want to turn their aids off in order to compete, am I missing something? I may be, I'm new at this game, and this club, but I'm thinking the no aids thing really limits this group, I am thinking maybe a fourth room for newcomers that is aids allowed, and if they win with no aids they can advance, I don't know, not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand.

I'm not driving this flying umbrella, but if I were a host, I doubt I would even consider allowing aids (or any concessions, really) for someone who was acting like an eight year old.






(no disrespect toward actual eight year olds, btw)

 

[dabneyd]

Department of Defense,

Please stop costing so much.



V/R

everyone

 

[dylansan]

Driving aids will prevent you from driving at the fastest pace possible, so when you're a competitive driver it definitely will slow you down.

When you're not driving as competitively, however, they give you added stability and consistency, and can actually make your laps much faster than they would be without aids. In that case, it could be considered an unfair advantage if the racing is at a level where drivers using aids can keep up with the rest.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

Got a question, but before I ask it, I want to preface it with a disclaimer, lol, I don't want to use driving aids, ok, everybody hear that? Ok, with that said, I'm wondering why driving aids are not allowed, don't driving aids make you slower? Last night there was a gentleman who obviously had problems, and left the room saying something about driving aids, and it made me think, most people would get embarrassed if they get beat like I do, I don't like it, but I'm trying my best and I'm not a quitter, but wouldn't most do what that guy did last night and just leave to never return? I would think with seat time, like Sharkie said, these folks, would want to turn their aids off in order to compete, am I missing something? I may be, I'm new at this game, and this club, but I'm thinking the no aids thing really limits this group, I am thinking maybe a fourth room for newcomers that is aids allowed, and if they win with no aids they can advance, I don't know, not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand.

I personally don't mind allowing traction control. It has a real world counterpart, and on the few times that I've tested, I've been faster with it off.

I'm not a fan of SRF. It is just arcade. I'm not even sure what ASM does. I assume it is like SRF.

 

[JLBowler]

Department of Defense,

Please stop being so anal.



V/R

dudeondacouch





Think this will work?

Department of Defense,

Please stop costing so much.



V/R

everyone

How about this?

Department of Defense,

Please stop spending money blocking photo bucket.

V/R

Common Sense



Traction control has a real life counterpart and I woldn't care if it was allowed. The way if functions in the game it's more of a security blanket that will slow down the faster drivers if used.

ASM (active stability management) is also a thing in real life. It is there and tied to the computer systems of real cars and its main purpose is accident avoidance. In the game it just acts as an auto brake if you try and take a turn too fast. It also will just slow down the faster drivers.

Skid Recovery Force is a purely fictional thing that exists in the GT5 world. I'm not sure exactly what it was designed to do, but it is the easy button for this game. It gives more grip, keeps you from losing speed in corners and is completely artificial. Anyone can run faster lap times with this turned on and it really just is there to reinforce bad habbits.

 

[dylansan]

SRF is an aid which essentially modifies the physics engine to make the car more stable and less likely to wipe out. ASM does essentially the same thing but by regulating the inputs of the car rather than modifying the physics. As a result, SRF often results in much faster times, but ASM, at competitive speeds, tends to hold back drivers.

 

[BeRandom]

From trying them both out, this is how I figure they work.

SRF: provides additional grip on demand to prevent loss of vehicle control.

ASM: utilizes the brakes to maintain stability and intended direction. (almost like GMs Stabilitrack system)

 

[Apmaddock]

Want to be more competitive without aids? Ask Sharkie for tutoring. She can help you control the car so that you don't have to leave it up to the car to control itself.

And, yeah. That Ford guy last night was acting rather foolishly.

 

[GlennGolfer1]

I hope my friend Joe looks at this because to be honest I'm thinking, why in the world would he drive against anyone in the online lobbies who use aids, when he uses none every time and trust me he wins a lot. So my thought is, if a skilled guy uses aids against himself using no aids, I would have to think the guy with no aids would win, or why would he even do that? Again I don't care one way or the other, maybe this club only wants so many members, I don't know, and if that's true, cool, or maybe this is just the way it is, and that's cool too, but if you want to have this club grow, I'm thinking the no aids thing, makes guys leave, and I'm not so sure he was acting like an eight year old, I am embarrassed too, wouldn't you be if you were getting beat by almost a lap? I'm guessing 75 percent of drivers that get beat that bad leave and don't come back, you guys know more than me, has anyone ever stayed getting beat like I do? Just wondering, and again, I don't want driving aids for me, I would like better tires though

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

Got a question, but before I ask it, I want to preface it with a disclaimer, lol, I don't want to use driving aids, ok, everybody hear that? Ok, with that said, I'm wondering why driving aids are not allowed, don't driving aids make you slower? Last night there was a gentleman who obviously had problems, and left the room saying something about driving aids, and it made me think, most people would get embarrassed if they get beat like I do, I don't like it, but I'm trying my best and I'm not a quitter, but wouldn't most do what that guy did last night and just leave to never return? I would think with seat time, like Sharkie said, these folks, would want to turn their aids off in order to compete, am I missing something? I may be, I'm new at this game, and this club, but I'm thinking the no aids thing really limits this group, I am thinking maybe a fourth room for newcomers that is aids allowed, and if they win with no aids they can advance, I don't know, not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand.

I'm not 100% sure how the divisions work out, but I would hope D3 would be where new guys can learn to drive without aids. I'm average type skill but I hate driving with Skid Force or ASM. With them on all of a sudden it feels like I'm playing Mario Kart throwing the car around corners trying to avoid bananas. Maybe a D4 is needed if the skill level in D3 is too high that new guys don't enjoy it? I dunno.

Skid force makes you faster for sure. I wouldn't use ASM if you paid me.

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

Hey Devious, do you get down on other Racing sims? or anyone else that uses a g27? I ask cause Im curious if the clutch sucks because of the wheel itself or if GT5 implemented it horribly.

It's GT5 and the way it has programmed the clutch to work. It's frustrating, I know!

Got a question, but before I ask it, I want to preface it with a disclaimer, lol, I don't want to use driving aids, ok, everybody hear that? Ok, with that said, I'm wondering why driving aids are not allowed, don't driving aids make you slower? Last night there was a gentleman who obviously had problems, and left the room saying something about driving aids, and it made me think, most people would get embarrassed if they get beat like I do, I don't like it, but I'm trying my best and I'm not a quitter, but wouldn't most do what that guy did last night and just leave to never return? I would think with seat time, like Sharkie said, these folks, would want to turn their aids off in order to compete, am I missing something? I may be, I'm new at this game, and this club, but I'm thinking the no aids thing really limits this group, I am thinking maybe a fourth room for newcomers that is aids allowed, and if they win with no aids they can advance, I don't know, not trying to stir the pot here, just trying to understand.

Most driving aids will make the car safer but not faster. A GT5 driver who uses the aids will usually be slower than the rest of the field. However there times (although rare) when a driving aid is of great help to a GT5 driver. Just to pick one of the driving aids out of the group, I'll pick the TCS. If a new GT5 driver were to use the TCS to help them with driving a high HP car in one of the races we do, then the TCS could help them keep the car from going into an "Oversteer" situation (rear of car steps out) due to "Power-Over" (too much throttle input) This would be huge benefit if the other drivers are having the same issues with the car. The New SNAIL member now has a clear advantage over the rest of the field, and that advantage was not earned through skill or discipline.

My understanding of the SNAIL group (and I could be wrong about this) is that we want to test the driver skills of the drivers, rather than the tuning skills of the drivers. I love the SNAIL group because I know that when I get beat that it was because of my driving - period. I know that I didn't get out tuned, or out spent - I was out driven. That's driver skill. Driver skill isn't enough by itself, so this group employs rules to make sure that drivers play nice with each other. Driver skill isn't going to do any good if someone is going to use you as a rolling guard-rail or use your rear bumper as their method of braking for turns. These rules help to ensure that Driver Skill is promoted. Also, drivers are promoted up and demoted down in the league based on driver performance, so all division rooms use the same aids for consistency.

I hope that has answered your question.

BTW, there are a lot of GT5 drivers that will use the driving aids for racing, and that's ok, but even when some of those drivers get better, they will not turn off those aids. This is more common than you may think. Some of those drivers are now in their comfort zone and feel like they are ready to "race" kick some butt, but they later realize they are not as fast as they thought, get frustrated and leave. This group has clearly stated in the original post what the setting are for entire group, prior to any driver joining. This helps to ensure that the drivers who do request to join at least know how to handle their car, and what kind of competition they are about to join.

That's my 2 cents, but the best person to answer your inquiry is Zer05ive.

 

[dudeondacouch]

SRF is a nonsensical cheater aid. With that out of the way...


ASM/TCS are real world vehicle systems that have benefits for all but the VERY best drivers. (Of course "very best" is a relative term that is inversely proportional to the maximum performance of the vehicle.)

I personally think there is no reason that ABS/ASM/TCS should ever be disallowed from use on vehicles that have such systems. Unfortunately, PD inplemented it incorrectly, making them seem like add-ons that aren't organic to the car. Go to a dealership and see if you can get a new sportscar without any stability/traction control.

Fortunately, in the game, you can work around the removal of the TCS/ASM systems by adjusting the brakes and LSD. (Except not the LSD when tuning is disallowed, like here.)

Aditionally, traction problems are greatly magnified by the mysterious change in the physics model when racing online. Especially for DS3 users, some vehicles become literally undriveable. (Yellow Bird, NSX, Alpine, etc.) Even some normally well-behaved cars like the S2000 become very unpredictable in certain corners. Other cars, however, like the 86GT are rock solid on every turn, without any aids or LSD adjustment.

 

[Apmaddock]

Yes. He was acting like an 8 year old.

Him: What car can I use?
Me: Any of the three you see people in right now.
Him: Can I use tuning?
Me: No. Read the post for the rules.
Him: I'm not asking you. I'm asking the host.
Me: Who do you think the host is?
Him: Who is the host?
Me/Others: Vol
Him: Can I use a Chromeline car? It's the same but with a stripe.
Several People: No
Him: Speak up. I can't hear you.
Several People: We're not talking right now. There's nothing to hear.
Him: Can I use tuning?
Others: No

He then went on to get into the race before the track was changed. Then the track changed, he got in before parity announcements. Somehow he got in at, presumably, the right PP. The race started, he raced not-so-cleanly then fell to the back.

Someone: I kept locking up my brakes
Someone else: ABS?
Him: ASM?
First Someone: Yeah. I'm on ABS1. Just pushing it too hard.

...that about sorted it, as he then said something about being tired and having a long day tomorrow so he wanted aids on.

 

[Apmaddock]

Oh, and it has been said that some aids are available in D3. You just have to ask. BUT you can't advance if you win with them on.

 

[dudeondacouch]

Did you memorize that? DVR the race?

 

[Oshawa-Joe]

I hope my friend Joe looks at this because to be honest I'm thinking, why in the world would he drive against anyone in the online lobbies who use aids, when he uses none every time and trust me he wins a lot. So my thought is, if a skilled guy uses aids against himself using no aids, I would have to think the guy with no aids would win, or why would he even do that? Again I don't care one way or the other, maybe this club only wants so many members, I don't know, and if that's true, cool, or maybe this is just the way it is, and that's cool too, but if you want to have this club grow, I'm thinking the no aids thing, makes guys leave, and I'm not so sure he was acting like an eight year old, I am embarrassed too, wouldn't you be if you were getting beat by almost a lap? I'm guessing 75 percent of drivers that get beat that bad leave and don't come back, you guys know more than me, has anyone ever stayed getting beat like I do? Just wondering, and again, I don't want driving aids for me, I would like better tires though

To that guy begging for aids:

Aids are like drugs - they are bad for you and the sooner you get off them the better you will feel. Cold turkey is best. It will be rough for a couple of days. Just remember that you have people that care about you and are willing to help.

 

[Psycho Turtle]

I don't think I've ever seen a snail elf before.

Are you serious? We see them all the time in South Texas. It is the Stylommatophoraelf.

 

[GlennGolfer1]

Thanks for the responses all, I was just wondering, if that's the way it is cool, let's change the subject, lol

So AP, you remembered all that or did you write it down

 

[M1SS-D3V10US]

To that guy begging for aids:

Aids are like drugs - they are bad for you and the sooner you get off them the better you will feel. Cold turkey is best. It will be rough for a couple of days. Just remember that you have people that care about you and are willing to help.

ROTFLMAO!!!!

AWESOME!!! Well Said!

 

[Apmaddock]

I remembered it. Unfortunately, I have this place in my brain that focuses on irritating things and keeps them in my memory. Of course, that only makes me more irritated.

 

[GlennGolfer1]

I have the same problem, but it's usually horrible songs that my daughter makes us listen to.

 

[Apmaddock]

I just noticed that we're five posts from having the second most in the Clubs & Leagues section of the forum.

Well done, jabbermouths!

 

[dudeondacouch]

I've only posted a couple times, so it's not me that's to blame.

 

[zer05ive]

Most driving aids will make the car safer but not faster. A GT5 driver who uses the aids will usually be slower than the rest of the field. However there times (although rare) when a driving aid is of great help to a GT5 driver. Just to pick one of the driving aids out of the group, I'll pick the TCS. If a new GT5 driver were to use the TCS to help them with driving a high HP car in one of the races we do, then the TCS could help them keep the car from going into an "Oversteer" situation (rear of car steps out) due to "Power-Over" (too much throttle input) This would be huge benefit if the other drivers are having the same issues with the car. The New SNAIL member now has a clear advantage over the rest of the field, and that advantage was not earned through skill or discipline.

My understanding of the SNAIL group (and I could be wrong about this) is that we want to test the driver skills of the drivers, rather than the tuning skills of the drivers. I love the SNAIL group because I know that when I get beat that it was because of my driving - period. I know that I didn't get out tuned, or out spent - I was out driven. That's driver skill. Driver skill isn't enough by itself, so this group employs rules to make sure that drivers play nice with each other. Driver skill isn't going to do any good if someone is going to use you as a rolling guard-rail or use your rear bumper as their method of braking for turns. These rules help to ensure that Driver Skill is promoted. Also, drivers are promoted up and demoted down in the league based on driver performance, so all division rooms use the same aids for consistency.

I hope that has answered your question.

BTW, there are a lot of GT5 drivers that will use the driving aids for racing, and that's ok, but even when some of those drivers get better, they will not turn off those aids. This is more common than you may think. Some of those drivers are now in their comfort zone and feel like they are ready to "race" kick some butt, but they later realize they are not as fast as they thought, get frustrated and leave. This group has clearly stated in the original post what the setting are for entire group, prior to any driver joining. This helps to ensure that the drivers who do request to join at least know how to handle their car, and what kind of competition they are about to join.

Thanks for the thorough explanation you provided for GlennGolfer1. Sums it up nicely. 👍

That's my 2 cents, but the best person to answer your inquiry is Zer05ive.

Why do so many of you capitalize the "z" in my handle? I am confounded by this.

Oh, and it has been said that some aids are available in D3. You just have to ask. BUT you can't advance if you win with them on.

GlennGolfer1, click here to see the rule that Apmaddock is referring to. Listed above the rule itself, you'll see a summary of the discussion that lead to the creation of it in the first place. Please note that, for easy reference in the future, this rule is also linked in the original post under Settings > Driving Aids

In a nutshell, that rule was created as a compromise to allow us to make sure we were accessible to all skill levels while still protecting the core principles of our Promotion and Relegation system (which is the key element of S.N.A.I.L. that sets us apart from any other club or league on ).

 

[Rallywagon]

Sunday nights, division 3 allows aids, however, part of the deal is that if your using aids you can't move up to the next division if you win.

 

[Psycho Turtle]

I'm not 100% sure how the divisions work out, but I would hope D3 would be where new guys can learn to drive without aids. I'm average type skill but I hate driving with Skid Force or ASM. With them on all of a sudden it feels like I'm playing Mario Kart throwing the car around corners trying to avoid bananas. Maybe a D4 is needed if the skill level in D3 is too high that new guys don't enjoy it? I dunno.

Skid force makes you faster for sure. I wouldn't use ASM if you paid me.

I am starting to think a D4 would be a good idea as well. That way D3 would be clean with all drivers competing equally.

D4 could have whatever aids make sense. I do not think SFR should be allowed because any driver that gets promoted out of D4 could be a real nuisance after turning it off.

It would be very inviting to new drivers and they would learn good race craft as well. All in all, a win win. 👍

 

[GlennGolfer1]

I've read that zero, thanks, but that pertains to Sunday night only, here's another thought I was thinking, keep Sunday like it is, like zero said, that's what separates this group from others. Then, change the weekly events to allow aids, these events, like last night, were for fun only, right? So why not let the ones who need aids, have them, I would be willing to bet the top guys and gals would never use them, and would still win the events. Just a thought.

 

[Rallywagon]

Smh. I missed like a whole page of posts! Yeesh! Super ninja'd