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chuyler1
I enjoyed racing for 8th place...I did not enjoy getting driven off the track in the reverse grid races...if I filed a report for every time someone hit my bumper or rear quarter panel I would have filled up the incident report sheet. I consider myself a no contact driver and have encountered mostly that from D5 through D2 but there was more contact last night than my entire (short) career in SNAIL. Most of them the driver backed off but when you get hit repeatedly turn after turn it wears on your concentration and you start paying more attention to what's behind you than what's in front of you.

I understand that there was some close racing Sunday night back in the pack...but its hard to continue those battles when the grid is reversed if the alien drivers are pushing their way through the pack and splitting up the drivers.

I also understand I was placing around 4th in D2 and the 3 drivers who usually beat me moved up...but I was usually qualifying mid pack if everyone showed up so I was always chasing someone. My higher scores was more based on fewer incidents than faster lap times. In D1 I basically felt like a road block for everyone.

Anyway, I'll give D1 another shot...but if there isn't improvement I'll likely opt for the D2 route.
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When I first joined this league my first race in D1 was so overwhelming. I didn't have the pace to keep up and I felt like I was just a back marker. It wasn't easy but I stuck with it and eventually my pace picked up and I grabbed some wins. Just stick with it and it will get better I promise. As for the abnormal amount of contact this last week. We had a lot of new drivers. And some of them. Seemed to sacrificed race craft for outright speed. This has happened before and it will get better. D1 is a great division when everyone is comfortable with each other.
 
chuyler1
I enjoyed racing for 8th place...I did not enjoy getting driven off the track in the reverse grid races...if I filed a report for every time someone hit my bumper or rear quarter panel I would have filled up the incident report sheet. I consider myself a no contact driver and have encountered mostly that from D5 through D2 but there was more contact last night than my entire (short) career in SNAIL. Most of them the driver backed off but when you get hit repeatedly turn after turn it wears on your concentration and you start paying more attention to what's behind you than what's in front of you.

I understand that there was some close racing Sunday night back in the pack...but its hard to continue those battles when the grid is reversed if the alien drivers are pushing their way through the pack and splitting up the drivers.

I also understand I was placing around 4th in D2 and the 3 drivers who usually beat me moved up...but I was usually qualifying mid pack if everyone showed up so I was always chasing someone. My higher scores was more based on fewer incidents than faster lap times. In D1 I basically felt like a road block for everyone.

Anyway, I'll give D1 another shot...but if there isn't improvement I'll likely opt for the D2 route.
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If you want it to get cleaner file incident reports. Otherwise you are condoning the behavior and deserve to get rear ended week after week. You have the power to change that behavior. Please use it!
 
jobyone
If you want it to get cleaner file incident reports. Otherwise you are condoning the behavior and deserve to get rear ended week after week. You have the power to change that behavior. Please use it!
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That being said, I feel sometimes some roughing between cars will be seen at the highest level of racing, a slight tap on the rear puts you off your rhythm but it will not cost you a race or a position, I see it also as a kind of tactic racing in real life with fendered cars, it goes to another level with it being somewhat a psychological warfare which is what I crave most in racing above all racecraft.
 
Neovre
That being said, I feel sometimes some roughing between cars will be seen at the highest level of racing, a slight tap on the rear puts you off your rhythm but it will not cost you a race or a position, I see it also as a kind of tactic racing in real life with fendered cars, it goes to another level with it being somewhat a psychological warfare which is what I crave most in racing above all racecraft.
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Agreed. But if that is the racing that someone wants then they should not complain about being bumped. If they want ultra clean racing then they should file incidents.
 
Neovre
ALSO IN HONOR OF THIS WE SHOULD HAVE THE GTR GT3 IN ONE OF OUR COMBOS THIS WEEK!!!!!!!!! Hopefully my squeaky little WC opinion for a faster car in a combo be heard by the prize winners .......:nervous:
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As a GT-R fanboy, I would like to show my support for this with some video.







Oh, that last one? That was something Nick (nice name BTW) posted a few years ago.
 
intoflatlines
D3 data has been entered to the Results Doc for 4/6/14

Pole Lap Honors:
Round 1 (Lancia Delta @ Deep Forest): @LeoStrop 1:34.094
Round 2 (Mazda Roadster TC @ Tsukuba): @AG07WRXTR 58.755
Round 3 (M3 CSL @ Apricot Hill): @LeoStrop 1:28.499

Fast Lap honors:
Round 1 Race 1 : @LeoStrop 1:34.092
Round 1 Race 2 : @JoeW 1:33.720

Round 2 Race 1 : @Dragonwhisky 58.182
Round 2 Race 2 : @AG07WRXTR 58.326

Round 3 Race 1 : @Dragonwhisky 1:28.705
Round 3 Race 2 : @dabneyd 1:28.225

Total Times/Wins:
Round 1 Race 1 : @JoeW 11:10.423
Round 1 Race 2 : @Schmiggz 11:15.495

Round 2 Race 1 : @AG07WRXTR 10:56.021
Round 2 Race 2 : @JLBowler 10:53.408

Round 3 Race 1 : @LeoStrop 10:30.878
Round 3 Race 2 : @JLBowler 10:32.231

It was a fun night in D3! We had some new drivers to D3 and were missing some old rivals that have been moved to other Divisions. There were no particularly dominant drivers tonight, which is evident because there were only 3 points separating 1st and 3rd place, and only 10 points between 1st and 7th! Furthermore, with 11 drivers last night, 10 of us got onto the podium at least once! The unofficial winner of the night, @Dragonwhisky, did so despite not finishing in P1 once. Consistency is huge!

Thanks to @nmcp1 for the nice layout!
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Didn't jlbowler secure pole in round 2? I know he was disco'd before the race got going and didn't appear on the grid. I qualified 3rd and was surprised to find myself in 2nd place on the grid.
 
chuyler1
I really don't feel I earned anything. I haven't won a race since I was back in D5 (January). I was perfectly happy in D3 where I at least had a shot at winning and could show up, do a few warmup laps and go racing. That was fun. Getting rammed repeatedly by D1 drivers is not fun....at least not if I appear to be the only one on the track who isn't prepared.
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This is as much to Chuyler as to anyone who "gets hit" and wonders if an incident should be filed...

I won't say you deserve getting hit, but you are entitled to the culture of acceptance that you allow. If you got hit and didn't file, you have made it clear that you accept being rammed. Don't complain if you accept it. Even better, find a series that accepts this.

If you did file, it will be addressed as best we can. Once those "Wheels of Almighty Steward Justice" begin turning, then things change, or people are asked to leave.

It is not a perfect system, but it is hard to blame the legislative branch here. The judiciary doesn't review what the executive branch doesn't enforce. The executive branch is every driver here. Act when necessary.

On a second note, @Neovre - I do not think that repeatedly tapping or hitting the driver in front of you is "psychological warfare or gamesmanship." It is a failure to follow the OLR, it should be punished as such. If you are the hitter, use the pedal called a brake, and adjust your brake point instead of hitting the car in front of you over and over.
 
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All I can say is, and have always said, welcome to D1. Be careful what you wished for :)

The lap times may be top drawer but the race craft...ack...Lord Vader...ugh...I have always served you well...ack...ugh...please don't kill....ugh...spittle...meeeeeee....
 
I feel like this chuyler. There are alot of people in this league who have been in it for quite a while now.( Me included. ) That have been in the same division we started in or even been relegated to a lower division. With that being said, you on the other hand in just a short amount of time have moved from I believe d5 all the way up to d1. Some of the guys have never won a race much less an overall win for the night or a monthly championship. You have done all the above if im not mistaken. So dude, my point is you have most definitely earned
Your place in d1. I dont know how long youve been in snail exactly, but I do know ive been here for ten months and I am no where near d1. Heck I just made it to d4 this past sunday ( which was awesome by the way) all im saying is give it a couple of sundays to settle in to your new awesome division let the guys
Your racing with get used to your style of driving as well as you get used to theirs and im sure you will have a great showing and even a win or two. Anyway thats my two cents. Yall have a wonderful day im going to bed. Third shift blah.
 
Oshawa-Joe
Someone once said we should have a division 1.5:odd:
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We already do. At the moment division "1.5" is spread across divisions 2 & 3. There are drivers in both divisions at the moment that have visited Area51 for however long. My only hope of being competitive with any of them is their lack of practice.

I practiced with Oshawa-Joe a couple weeks ago. Historically, whenever he is on the same track I am, I can count on him being in front and pretty much walking away from me. The practice I speak of was a couple weeks ago, after Joe had been on a few weeks of hiatus. Initially, I was pleased to note that I was getting faster lap times than him and wondering where my speed might be coming from. It wasn't me. It was frightening how quickly Joe picked up where he was slow and very suddenly, we were right back to what I remembered. Me being slower than him. There are several drivers in D3 at the moment I have the same relationship with. If they managed to practice for just an hour a week, I'd be hunting for positions elsewhere, they'd get promoted or I relegated. It's just that simple. You want to get better, be the best, put in the time. Sacrifices will have to be made whichever way you go. It's up to you to decide which ones to make.
 
@chuyler1 ill take my initial D1 spot back, trade? :P

Here is my two cents. Had i been given a third week in it, im without a doubt sure it would have got better, as my second week went much better than the first.

You have publicly expressed alot of concern for someone who has only spent two hours with the guys, give it some time. :)
 
Try to get some practice and enjoy D1. I would think you will learn a lot there, even though you may not be fighting for a win every race.

Its interesting how many guys fight their way into D1 and disappear after a week or 2.
 
I have no doubt the driving will get better eventually...or they'll just consider me the incident reporter and stay clear of me like a whistleblower at a major corporation... What I don't expect to happen is for me to get any faster. I have been behind a few guys that moved up with me for a while now...I can blame my equipment...but the fact is I cannot extract the same level of precision out of the DFGT pedals that these guys can out of their G27s and what not. Can I get a pole on Area 51? Who's using what device?

Maybe given time I'll get lucky and score a win...but for that to happen drivers will have to either not show up or get involved in a big mess that puts me ahead enough that by the time they catch back up there is no time to pass. My point being, I will likely never win on lap times.
 
JoeW
All I can say is, and have always said, welcome to D1. Be careful what you wished for :)

The lap times may be top drawer but the race craft...ack...Lord Vader...ugh...I have always served you well...ack...ugh...please don't kill....ugh...spittle...meeeeeee....
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Some people don't understand what race craft means.

I'll give you a hint, it does not mean "the ability to get through a whole race without hitting anything".

I personally appreciate some contact from the rear, I call those little taps "go faster reminders" and they're pretty common in all forms of professional tin-top racing. Bump drafting is a valid tactic as well. Love taps are only acceptable while on the throttle of course, using someone to augment your brakes is a big no-no.

Side contact that is hard enough to slide someone off their line (let alone off the track) is completely unacceptable however. Doing data and watching some replays last night, I know exactly what incidents chuyler is talking about and they are not representative of typical D1 conduct. Such side contact can occur occasionally, but concessions need to be made. If you divebomb someone off the track and they spin in the dirt, you need to wait until they get back in front of you, period. Apologies are not enough. Replays will be uploaded for steward reviews a little later today.
 
turnupdaheat
Didn't jlbowler secure pole in round 2? I know he was disco'd before the race got going and didn't appear on the grid. I qualified 3rd and was surprised to find myself in 2nd place on the grid.
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He disconnected before the completion of qualifying, as shown by screenshots I took immediately after qualifying before we got to the grid. He was sitting in P1 before he disconnected though.

chuyler1
I have no doubt the driving will get better eventually...or they'll just consider me the incident reporter and stay clear of me like a whistleblower at a major corporation... What I don't expect to happen is for me to get any faster. I have been behind a few guys that moved up with me for a while now...I can blame my equipment...but the fact is I cannot extract the same level of precision out of the DFGT pedals that these guys can out of their G27s and what not. Can I get a pole on Area 51? Who's using what device?

Maybe given time I'll get lucky and score a win...but for that to happen drivers will have to either not show up or get involved in a big mess that puts me ahead enough that by the time they catch back up there is no time to pass. My point being, I will likely never win on lap times.
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Does every D1 driver use a G27 or better on race day? I wouldn't be surprised if at least 1 person is using a DFGT or even a controller.
 
fizzer
Some people don't understand what race craft means.

I'll give you a hint, it does not mean "the ability to get through a whole race without hitting anything".
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Maybe not in real life racing. Actually, in SNAIL, it does mean exactly that. Incidental contact that doesn't affect either driver, or, doesn't affect the driver that got hit, is only acceptable if the driver being hit deems it so. So far as I'm concerned, being tapped anywhere else but where draft bumping is beneficial is unacceptable. It depends greatly on the relationship between the bumper and the bumpee. For instance, in last Sunday's last race, I was chasing JLBowler at Apricot, dabney was running us down, I was able to close on JL in sector 2 and tucked on his bumper and hoped we could get away from dabney. I couldn't stay there safely long enough to benefit and gave it up. I trusted JL to keep it together and I hope he trusted me to do the same. When I couldn't trust the car and track to help me any more, I backed out, to make sure there wasn't bumping go on where it shouldn't be. Dabney did run me down and the only reason I got second behind JL was dabney overpowering his exit out of the chicane, or he would have passed me on the final straight.

Contact is certainly not acceptable anywhere near a corner entrance.
 
chuyler1
I have no doubt the driving will get better eventually...or they'll just consider me the incident reporter and stay clear of me like a whistleblower at a major corporation...
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Ha! This was me when I was D1. I was a steward and I would take it upon myself to review the replays of whatever division I was in at the time and go over OB penalties and obvious driver infractions that were not reported. Well, you can imagine how they felt about that in D1 ;) Blah blah I could REALLY go on but I won't...

I feel for ya @chuyler1, you get there and think it's going to be a great learning experience and super fun driving with the top hot lappers in SNAIL. But then you realize that the first rule of Fight Club...

fizzer
Some people don't understand what race craft means.

I'll give you a hint, it does not mean "the ability to get through a whole race without hitting anything".
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Well I do know what race craft means and in all my time driving here, albeit not with you or a few other drivers currently in D1, my experiences driving with D1 drivers have been, on the whole, the worst race craft experiences I have had in SNAIL. There are some really great D1 guys that have always had my utmost respect because they could actually drive D1 fast without making contact or caring about their own ego. @OwensRacing , @Nicktune , @qwietstorm, @kendawg, @JLBowler, @racefan78 are some really great examples. I probably missed a few because I haven't seen them in awhile...like @Worst_Driver I didn't drive with for very long and @Adventuruss who I have driven with a few times as well.

I know a few great racers that have left SNAIL D1 permanently because their experience in D1 was less than exemplary. I quit D1 for quite some time due to my experiences there as well. But I'm back just plugging along in "fun" mode.

But, on the bright side, I'm sure everyone there has a great respect for each other and a great time every Sunday ;) This post was not directed at anyone in particular but the D1 experience is a bit, different, than the other divisions because it is the top division. There are egos to be bruised and bragging rights to fight for so things are more intense and stress levels run high. All the GT Academy hopefuls need to show each other who will win next year and past Academy guys need to show why they made it. Reputations to uphold...pressure is high.

Anyways...all that is not for me. My racing buddies are my racing buddies ;)
 
Is there a possibility that a change in prize winners will change which combo will stay? Or am I free to drop a bunch of time into the Mazda at Tsukuba?
 
JoeW
I feel for ya @chuyler1, you get there and think it's going to be a great learning experience and super fun driving with the top hot lappers in SNAIL. But then you realize that the first rule of Fight Club...
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Oh I was never under any misconception about what goes on in Fight Clu--err-D1. I've known @Nicktune for years and watching him fall short of winning in points pretty much summed up my belief that I would never be competitive in D1. I actually entered D2 Sunday night not realizing I was in D1. So I don't really see this as a reward of any sort...more like a punishment for being too fast...you know the kid that gets to skip a grade but is now bullied by all the older kids.
 
intoflatlines
He disconnected before the completion of qualifying, as shown by screenshots I took immediately after qualifying before we got to the grid. He was sitting in P1 before he disconnected though.

Does every D1 driver use a G27 or better on race day? I wouldn't be surprised if at least 1 person is using a DFGT or even a controller.
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Hugh mentioned he's currently on a dfgt and looking for cheap G27s, I'd say he's fast enough. Plenty of people have made it to GT academy on DFGTs, though I hear the brake mod is very beneficial (adding more resistance to brake pedal). I'm currently on a fanatec setup which is great, but I still haven't fully adjusted to the load cell and its slowing me down a little. The new data logger feature visualized my issue there quite nicely :) Something to work on...

@Dragonwhisky - I agree with your statement that contact must be acceptable to the non-initiating driver. I haven't been in snail all that long, but in D1 it seems that a little "rubbin is racing" is generally acceptable so long that its done in a fair way and not consistently purposeful or reckless. I've had quite a number of great side-by-side battles with many drivers in D1 with very little contact. The trust needed for that kind of racing is high though and takes a few Sundays to establish.
 
I like my G27, but wasn't slowed down the few times I had to plug in my old DFPro. I actually think I may be faster with the older wheel; possibly due to longer brake pedal travel allowing for better control.
 
chuyler1
Really? I was watching your lap times at Tsukuba and I could have sworn I saw heal-toe downshifting. I've never noticed throttle blips from anyone using a DFGT.
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The cars blip themselves if you're not using a h-shifter, is that what you were seeing?

Replays in general can be misleading. Inputs are smoothed and interpolated (sample rate is kept low for bandwidth reasons I imagine), and lag can make braking points look later than they really are.
 
Troggy
Is there a possibility that a change in prize winners will change which combo will stay? Or am I free to drop a bunch of time into the Mazda at Tsukuba?
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The Roadster/Tsukuba combo had 3 more votes than the BMW/Apricot Hill combo. It looks like those that are next in line to be prize winners also voted out combo 1, so in my opinion, the Roadster/Tsukuba combo is safe.
 
fizzer
I've had quite a number of great side-by-side battles with many drivers in D1 with very little contact. The trust needed for that kind of racing is high though and takes a few Sundays to establish.
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I'm fine with a little side-by-side contact assuming the cars are about even on the track...it's the front quarterpanel to rear quarter panel contact that bugs me...that can easily be avoided by lifting up a little. You can't tell me that D1 drivers don't know where the corners of their cars are. A little love tap to upset the other driver eventually gives you the edge you need to make pass down the line. I got a few of those Sunday night but none turned into passes (except the ones I filed reports on)...they just wore me down to the point where I tried to avoid the next one by over driving my line. I'm guessing that was the intent...which is what D1 drivers appear to be saying is part of racing. I know it is...I'm just stating that I don't like it, it slows me down, and make me look like a worse driver than I am.
 

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