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[Apmaddock]

Is there anything being done about it (im asking because i dont know, not a Steward). Saying its flawed and needs to be changed doesnt seem to be heard.

The system was just changed. In fact, not a single complaint has been analyzed under the new penalty system, so we have no idea how well/poorly it's working. Save your arguments for when there's a problem with it. Right now it's going to fall on deaf ears because we just instituted it on Saturday, and it took weeks to get there.

(Edit: Not to mention the manner in which you're staging your "protest")

God forbid i bump into someone, i get docked 1-4 points!

Apparently you misunderstood that bit (or I miswrote it, I'll go back and check). A penalty will never be assessed for contact deemed to be incidental and not race-altering. If there is contact in a pass you're not expected, nor required, to give up the pass unless your contact is in poor racecraft or causes an incident.

We actually re-wrote the ORL to make it a bit more lenient in this (and several other) areas. Did you bother to look it over?

Example? Ok.

Section 4
D:
Some contact through a corner or through a pass may not be avoidable and may be deemed "incidental" should it not appear to affect the likely outcome of the section in question.

 

[JLBowler]

Ninja'd by AP and he said it better.

 

[Rallywagon]

Wow, what a pissing contest we have going on here! I bet mine is bigger!
I remember when what Mopar was talking about transpired. I remember the only two people that felt like you Mopar, were you and devious, and I remember that allowing the driver to take the first position for the 2nd race was the way it was and is, and will be.

 

[irmopars]

We actually re-wrote the ORL to make it a bit more lenient in this (and several other) areas. Did you bother to look it over?

Yes Fully

Ninja'd by AP and he said it better.

^Said something about do i have a perfect system, no i dont.

 

[Handlebar]

Yippee... watchin' axes being ground down. Fun.

Fun?

I would want to look at the track combos voted for in D3 vs D1. If you don't see a disconnect, then I'm confused, I suppose. Learning vs. Skilled... or maybe that's not what the results may indicate.

I joined SNAIL as what I thought was an "intermediate" league. That's what I aspired to become. I wonder if it has become something more than that. Mopar and Devious (and others) have given numerous hours to help many D2 and D3'ers. and I offer them, and others, my grateful thanks. Many drivers have improved, markedly. Some, marginally.

I understand. I still stink. I've improved, but only a bit. Mind you, my Odyssey is now smokin' the apex at the local grocery store and soccer field, but that's beside the point... ish.

My frustration has been the weekly beatdown weekly from Johnny-Joined-This-Week-He'll-Move-Up-Next-Week-And-Now-Not-Show-Or-Communicate...Then... He's-Relegated-To-Continue-His-Uncommunicative-And-Occasional-Beatdown-of-Regulars

Seriously. This blows big, fat, wet, frat-boy, chunks. Look at the disparity from the top 3 in any division and the rest of the field in the last 3 months. How many postions 1-6 or 7 are close? How about postions 3-7 or 8? How does that shake out vs. those differences in D1, D2 and D3? How about those placings based on folks who have raced 2+ times in that division?
I wonder what 'close racing' is observed there? I imagine a generalized collection of No-shows, weekly pinatas, and the "I wanna be moving up" drivers. Not much room for the learners other than to be a blocking dummy.

I once heard that growing most organizations involved going from the ground up. If SNAILs only wants top level racers, be blunt and say it. If you want D3 to be for beginning drivers, then D3 should look like beginning drivers. I ask you to look at results for 3 months.

(not really Rhetorically...) In your opinion, do the results in D3 represent a place to grow driving skills over time... or run one-and-done... or to be relegated for lack of time, communication, insufficient driving skills?

I look at how this has gone and think of most D3 drivers representing over that time as the mighty Washington Generals, facing Meadowlark Lemon and crew. Again. And again. And again.

I hope to learn enough to move out spot of a perennial cellar dweller - forget winning the race - having to create a 'goal' of not getting lapped or actually seeing another care after lap 1 or 2, isn't really "close" racing for me.
This game - GT5... racing - the online version is new to me. I like racing. I want to learn more. Personally, with less work on the agenda for a couple of weeks, I can try to do more in SNAIL.

I don't want to be D4 (Losers like Me), but I also don't want to be constantly racing against people who are NOT like me. When 2/3 of my field shouldn't be IN the D3 field, that ought to be clear to non-sadists. I think the current system doesn't do enough to dissuade ... people... from dropping by (as they may see fit...) long enough to pummel the wanna-learns. Glad their ego is boosted, but I'm sick of it.

I suggest 2 weeks with no communication at all as reason to not report if they show/no-show, and if they deign to re-apply, it should be with caveats on what showing up means.

 

[irmopars]

Ok AP we will see how the new system pans out.

We'll change the track to Cape Ring south.

Not sure if this is possible or not, as i havent heard word back on it, but for now lets go with it.

 

[Handlebar]

London, is there a problem with making contact? Racing is all about running door to door, rubbing and bumping is it not? Or are we all wanting to be driving on eggs now that the new Penalty system is in place? God forbid i bump into someone, i get docked 1-4 points!

QUOTE]

Glad to know you want to waive the OLR. Good to note. Thanks. For those who actually avoid hitting someone, why are we penalized for trying to learn to avoid the *&$% who choose to ignore the rules, hope they don't get the penalty, and maybe win.

I thought SNAIL was clean racing. If not, let me know otherwise. The assumption that a track/car combo trumps OLR is a new concept to me.

 

[Apmaddock]

For you, Handlebar (cuz you look so good with that 'stache)

Div 1
Combo 1: 4 Votes
2: 1
3: 3

Div 2
1: 2
2: 5
3: 1

Div 3
1: 2
2: 0
3: 5


Div 1 and 3 are actually more similar than 2 is to either of them. Dunno what that means…

is there a problem with making contact? Racing is all about running door to door, rubbing and bumping is it not? Or are we all wanting to be driving on eggs now that the new Penalty system is in place? God forbid i bump into someone, i get docked 1-4 points!

Since you quoted that again it made me think of something else…

Under the old system, if you had a bump that was deemed penalty-worthy, you would receive at least a race DQ for a penalty. Wouldn't you rather take the 1-4 points for something light like that?

At the same time, someone who ran three cars off of a track, through sand, and into a wall got the same penalty. Sound fair?

 

[Handlebar]

For you, Handlebar (cuz you look so good with that 'stache)

Thanks! I have to trim it up this week for the pool, but, yes, it's not insignificant. ;-)

I meant the voting differences on tracks/cars as a pattern over time. Looking at how the D1 vs. D2 vs. D3 (esp D1 vs. D3) voted was... interesting.

Those who could handle technical tracks, high torque cars vs those who were learning to race... I think that's the division.

 

[fzappa]

OKAY PEOPLE!!!!!

I'm going to change the subjuct for a minute and post some pictures in D1 last night.

GHOST?????

I hope I didn't go overboard but pics of the race are to see and its fun doing it!

 

[JLBowler]

London, is there a problem with making contact? Racing is all about running door to door, rubbing and bumping is it not? Or are we all wanting to be driving on eggs now that the new Penalty system is in place? God forbid i bump into someone, i get docked 1-4 points!

QUOTE]

Glad to know you want to waive the OLR. Good to note. Thanks. For those who actually avoid hitting someone, why are we penalized for trying to learn to avoid the *&$% who choose to ignore the rules, hope they don't get the penalty, and maybe win.

I thought SNAIL was clean racing. If not, let me know otherwise. The assumption that a track/car combo trumps OLR is a new concept to me.

We didn't waive the OLR. We adjusted it so that obvisously incidental contact isn't necessarily grounds for a penalty. Think of a situation where driver A is on the inside and driver B is on the outside. Driver B moves down in the corner slightly and Driver A pushes up the track slightly. There is slight contact between the two cars and they both continue on. Under the GTP OLR, this would be a penalty. With our changes to the OLR, this can be considered a case of incidental contact with no adverse effect and there is no penalty. It's racing, and it happens at almost every level of racing in cars that have fenders.

 

[irmopars]

Nice pics, that red viper looks good in some of the shots.

 

[kcheeb]

Awesome pics tcrash! thanks!

P.S. never too many

 

[fzappa]

Nice pics, that red viper looks good in some of the shots.

Didn't notice that.

 

[Handlebar]

Interesting.

When I asked about "rubbin' is racin' " awhile back, I belive I received a different response from zer0 and others.

I admit, I may be wrong, but I thought that contact with another car was BAD and you should avoid it. Should we amend the OLR perhaps?

Learning racing with rules that are malleable is not easy.

I know I've been very defensive this evening. Based on the "it happens.." should I affix the Viking Horns to cars to the hood and go berserk? Sounds... crazy. And not really my style (despite Norwegian heritage).

 

[DrKronin]

I know I'm a bit late to the party with the no-show penalty discussion, but here's my $0.02:

The major problem with the current system is that D1 or D2 drivers that no-show come back at some point and steamroll whatever division they've been relegated to in the interim. These drivers, along with new drivers destined for higher divisions, cause D3 and D2 to often feel uncompetitive for drivers that belong in those divisions.

I don't really like the idea of forcing no-shows to sit out a weekend. It might be fair to them, given the trouble they've caused SNAIL administrators, but it denies their division another competitor for the week, not to mention potentially turning off someone for good that just made a mistake.

I think the penalty should be on-track, the next Sunday the no-show races. Starting from the back once or twice for each week someone no-shows would, I think, provide as much of a deterrent as necessary. To be honest, it doesn't seem to me that anything works very well as a deterrent anyway. People who no-show usually either encountered an unavoidable, unexpected event in their personal lives, or are people would have no-showed no matter the consequences.

 

[Handlebar]

Unexpected, I hear ya, Dr. K. That's not typical.

It's the group who beats ya, does it again, gets promoted, gives zero commo for a few weeks, gets relegated, bothers to come back and beat on the D3 again...

Sure, it doesn't bother D1, D2, (they're outta here, baby!), but this isn't fun to race against better racers as a race of comparable skill or levels.

 

[tezgm99]

Unexpected, I hear ya, Dr. K. That's not typical.

It's the group who beats ya, does it again, gets promoted, gives zero commo for a few weeks, gets relegated, bothers to come back and beat on the D3 again...

Sure, it doesn't bother D1, D2, (they're outta here, baby!), but this isn't fun to race against better racers as a race of comparable skill or levels.

That's why I suggested either last week or the week before about having a S.N.A.I.L. 'racing series' as well as the 'club/league' group to break up those who are here just for fun and those who take their racing more seriously

 

[Rallywagon]

Handle. We aren't giving way for another Monday mayhem night here. The goal is still to race as clean as possible. The rules weren't changed to allow all and any contact, but rather, to provide a means to measure and weigh each incident individually, and assign a proper points penalty. In the old scheme, if 5th place somehow managed to take out 4th, 3rd and 2nd. But gave back the position, then no penalty would have been assessed. However, with the new system, we will be able to now assess the situation wholly on the intent of the driver and the situation, and not just whether the offending driver gave position back or not.

 

[dylansan]

In that case rally, I think some of the concern may be for how those situations are assessed and by what guidelines are in place to deal with them. I think the goal should be to eliminate as much vagueness as possible from the rules, and any changes should focus on allowing everyone to participate competitively as often as possible.

I for one agree that perhaps the combos should not be solely for Division 1 to decide. I don't think it's a matter of sour grapes, but simply a recognition of the fact that people in lower divisions are just as much participants in the series, and their input into what makes a fun combo is just as valid an anyone else's. I understand that giving D1 the choices is their prize, but they are not inherently more qualified to make those selections. That said, I can't think of a solution at the moment that would please everyone. I think it needs more thought, which several people seem willing to put in.

 

[dabneyd]

Speed bump, just to make Vol jealous.

 

[irmopars]

Finding at Indy, with practice tonight, cars would "ghost" for no reason going into the corners. Not all cars would do this tho. Nothing we can do about it, just bring it up.

 

[ExoSphere64]

OK... My turn at the wheel... I think we all need to step back for a minute and take a deep breath! Let's not lose sight of why we are all here in the first place... RACING! Simple and clear rules are all that need be and let the stewards sort out some of the grey.

Maybe we need to change our approach to how we market the league and change some "perceptions" from the beginning. "Promotion and Relegation" instantly tells all (new and veteran) drivers that the goal is move up the ladder or if you can't keep up you will be demoted to a "lesser" division. The concept is good but maybe the verbiage could be improved. The two reasons I chose this league was for "Clean Racing" and the advertised "For Any Skill Level". I think the divisions should be more appropriately named and advertised as such:

Division 1: Expert (Expert to Alien)
Division 2: Amateur (Intermediate to Expert)
Division 3: Novice (Beginner to Intermediate)

If marketed in a way that promotes the classes for close competitive racing and not so much a goal we could remove the stigma of a higher or lower class, nothing more than a skill level placement.

As new drivers apply, maybe give THEM the choice of what class to start in. Thoroughly explain the level of racing in each class and see how they fare their first Sunday. Yes, there may be a little mayhem in ALL classes but it would spread the love between all 3 divisions instead of D3 getting hammered week in and week out. It would be very clear if a new driver chose the wrong class but Sunday nights race numbers would help get them placed in the correct class eliminating the need for the extra work running practice night numbers or hot laps etc... The over all goal should be to race with those who are closest to your skill level.

The no show debate has been going on for too long. Yes it is rude not to give notice for missing a race night but as had been said before, life happens. If a driver no shows, make it a 10 point penalty for each occurrence for the next night they show up to race. Relegation should not be an option. If a D1 driver flakes out for two weeks and then comes back, they are still a D1 level driver. Keep them in the proper class and dock points for no shows.

As for the prizes? Reward the 1st place finishers in all 3 classes.

Winner D1: Choose new car
Winner D2: Choose new track
Winner D3: Choose either new car or track for round with 2nd most votes.

All 3 winners could discuss combos and such and I think that would a pretty cool way the next weeks combinations and help foster unity between the divisions.


S.N.A.I.L.s !!!

 

[DrKronin]

Finding at Indy, with practice tonight, cars would "ghost" for no reason going into the corners. Not all cars would do this tho. Nothing we can do about it, just bring it up.

GT5 tries to detect when someone goes drastically off-line suddenly and ghosts them to avoid them ramming other cars. The problem is that it is absolutely horrible at figuring out when it should do this, and often ghosts unnecessarily. I'm guessing that this is what you're seeing at Indy.

Additionally, as Oshawa-Joe pointed out the other day, sometimes which car is ghosted varies depending on perspective (in other words, which driver's replay we're watching). I doubt it will be a big issue, but definitely something to keep in mind.

 

[irmopars]

GT5 tries to detect when someone goes drastically off-line suddenly and ghosts them to avoid them ramming other cars. The problem is that it is absolutely horrible at figuring out when it should do this, and often ghosts unnecessarily. I'm guessing that this is what you're seeing at Indy.

Additionally, as Oshawa-Joe pointed out the other day, sometimes which car is ghosted varies depending on perspective (in other words, which driver's replay we're watching). I doubt it will be a big issue, but definitely something to keep in mind.

Is this something turning off the penalty's in-game would fix? On a track like that, if you shortcut (possible, but its so obvious) your going to lose alot of grip and lose time for sure.

 

[DrKronin]

Is this something turning off the penalty's in-game would fix? On a track like that, if you shortcut (possible, but its so obvious) your going to lose alot of grip and lose time for sure.

I don't know, but I would guess it happens regardless of the penalty system, since the ghosted driver isn't penalized when it happens.

 

[zer05ive]

I think the penalty system is flawed, for this I chose the combo above. There will be contact made, and lots of penalty's given, due to the penalty systems flawed logic. It seems some people can be told over and over something is flawed but cannot see it, so they need to see it with their own eyes, in action.

Sorry for being a little late to reply, but I was so disgusted when I read this that I decided to watch Game 4 of the Finals and try to calm down. I didn't want to write something in the heat of the moment that I regretted later.

Case in point, the sliding point scale, concerns were brought up about its flaws, but were shot down due to the "rare" chances of said flaw happening were 1 in a million. 2 weeks later said flaw showed up, the "Oh you were right" came out, and it was adjusted, but it took nothing less than Devious to prove the the point to everyone by actions.

Is this really how you remember it? I remember it more like this. It seems to me that feedback was provided in a calm and constructive manner and it resulted in a positive change for the league. This is the proper way to go about seeking improvements to our league. What you tried to do with your initial car and track combo was just childish.

 

[zer05ive]

I admit, I don't like the penalty system. We've had a debate about it in the stewards forum, and it is going in a direction that I don't like.

That is said in the interest of full disclosure.

I must admit that I'm really confused by this statement. You were one of the main driving forces that convinced me that our old penalty system was flawed, which is why I sought to improve it in the first place. Please go to the stewards forum and read your comments in the thread titled Race Complaint - 6/10/12 - *****/*****

After you made those comments, I noticed that you didn't make any comments in the thread where we drilled down and worked out the new penalty system (it is the one titled This weeks complaints and the OLR). Were you aware that this discussion was going on, or did you check out because of the frustration you felt in the first thread? It seems to me that all of the objections you had stated previously were addressed by the new penalty system we came up with. Therefore, I'm really confused as to why you would say do don't like it.

 

[JLBowler]

If there are ghosting issues at Indy, turning off the penalties would fix the problem. With penalties off, there would be no ghosting at all. There are no shortcuts to take that would help you at Indy. Run it in practice tomorrow night and see if it's an issue. If it is, changing to no penalties for this race would not effect anything else.

 

[Vol Jbolaz]

I must admit that I'm really confused by this statement.

Don't be. I'm sorry. Ap cleared it up for me last night. My concerns were addressed, and I like this (v3?) much better than the previous.