2 Simple question for tuners

[Mixxer]

1.
Does a numerically higher extension value on damper settings mean
less control over the spring ie quicker extension - soft
or
more control over the spring ie slower extension - hard.

2.
Does a numerically higher compression value on damper settings mean
less control over the spring ie quicker compression - soft
or
more control over the spring ie slower compression - hard

Thanks

 

[praiano63]

1.
Does a numerically higher extension value on damper settings mean
less control over the spring ie quicker extension - soft
or
more control over the spring ie slower extension - hard.

2.
Does a numerically higher compression value on damper settings mean
less control over the spring ie quicker compression - soft
or
more control over the spring ie slower compression - hard

Thanks

higher extension value = more resistance over the spring ie slower extension - hard.


higher compression value = more resistance over the spring ie slower compression - hard

 

[Mixxer]

Thanks Praiano.

 

[nomis3613]

Mixxer,
They're such fundamental questions, but surprisingly there's no definitive answer!

I think most people agree that for compression, higher = stiffer. It is extension where there's a school of thought that higher=softer.

FWIW, I believe that higher = stiffer for both settings. But dampers have minimal effect on bumps compared to spring rates. Handling effects aren't much clue either, since I've seen various tuning methods- often based on conflicting beliefs about what the settings do- work well

 

[CSLACR]

I agree with Praiano, higher is stiffer, as the game says.
100% positive lower is softer for both.

I found this for 100% while testing the Stratos at the Nurb, with lower numbers on ext, which should make the suspension extend quicker, over some of the "jumps" my car was no longer even losing contact with the road at low settings.

For Nomis - I'd say swaybars seem to have the greatest effect on bumps, over spring rate, imo.

 

[Winters Noble]

This is my take on dampers. I'm relatively new to tuning them so bare with me. For example, If the Front Extension is higher than the rear, the weight will go to the rear faster during acceleration (good for rear wheel drive cars). This appears to take the same affect during deceleration(compression). So in a nutshell, the weight goes on the lower number first. Higher numbers in general make the suspension tighter and vice versa. If I wrong, please correct me.

 

[MTLclllutch]

dampers and rollbar transfer weight to other areas of the car, springs do not.

 

[Motor City Hami]

dampers and rollbar transfer weight to other areas of the car, springs do not.

??? Really ??? Care to explain? When I put my real race car on the scales and adjust the spring perches, weight most definately moves around the car. Now GT5 isn't programed with individual spring adjustments on each corner, but some weight would move front or rear depending upon spring settings.

 

[praiano63]

This is a very clear explanation for me:

http://f1-dictionary.110mb.com/shock_absorbers.html

Bound is the rate at which the shock compresses.
Rebound is the rate at which the shocks decompress.

Bound damping affects how far and fast the suspension travels up. When the suspension is on its way back down, rebound damping affects how far and fast it goes the other way. More precisely, bound damping affects the compression rate, while rebound damping affects the expansion rate.

If you make your bound damping too stiff, your car will be skittish over rough surfaces. Rebound damping also affects your steering as you transition into and out of corners.

In general, stiffer absorbers are better suited for flat tracks with sharp turns. They prevent your springs from coiling too quickly, which decreases the dip you have when cornering and braking. Softer adjusted absorbers are better suited for winding, coiling tracks, but they'll also lengthen your braking distance.

So having bound at (for example) value of 9 and rebound at value of 2, make the car stiffer when absorbing a bump, compression is harder. The suspension on rebound will not return as fast. This suppresses weight transfer. Not very good because the tire won't make contact with the ground fast enough causing slip, that induce oversteer.

On the other hand, bound at 2 and rebound at 9, absorbs more bumps, but returns the shocks the opposite way to fast. You'll find the car literally jump over small bumps. This is also undesirable, as the tire is not in contact with the road. Bound at 7 and rebound at 6, keeps the tires stiff and return to the ground slower. Having bound at 6 and rebound at 7, will result in a good stiff compression of shocks and a higher bound means the tires return a bit faster to the ground but not too fast. This is the ideal configuration, a slightly higher rebound.

 

[Mixxer]

Wow - Can of worms opened - Yep I can tick that box.
But seriously thanks to all who have replied.

I did think that a higher values resulted in more control over the spring/more resistance to the springs motion but I just wanted to check with the guys who know.

Praiano, I've been using your tunes online for a while and I found that some of the tunes suit me perfectly where some of the others are way off.

I use a ds3 and I also use the buttons for the accelerator and brake as I could not get the hang of using the L2 + R2 buttons as people say to use for more control, so that is probably why some tunes work and some dont, which leads me into why I asked the question as I'm tweaking some of your tunes to suit my style.

I'm also using Motor City Hami's guide to "tuning for the non tuners" with some success as a base setup for cars I havent been able to find tunes for and then making changes to suit my style.

I use cape ring, trial mountain and nurburging F in my online lounge to test and I do 5 lap runs at each to see if my changes have any effect.

I have read both yours and Motor City Hami various threads and bookmarked the guides you have both posted so my thanks goes to both of you for the work you have put into the tuning side of things.

 

[Mixxer]

Oh boy now I am really confused

Praiano in your earlier post you said

higher extension value = more resistance over the spring ie slower extension - hard.
higher compression value = more resistance over the spring ie slower compression - hard

Which to me is the opposite to what you posted below with reguard to the statements about the rebound/extension dampening ie lower values restrict the springs extension motion more than higher values.

So having bound at (for example) value of 9 and rebound at value of 2, make the car stiffer when absorbing a bump, compression is harder. The suspension on rebound will not return as fast. This suppresses weight transfer. Not very good because the tire won't make contact with the ground fast enough causing slip, that induce oversteer.

On the other hand, bound at 2 and rebound at 9, absorbs more bumps, but returns the shocks the opposite way to fast. You'll find the car literally jump over small bumps. This is also undesirable, as the tire is not in contact with the road. Bound at 7 and rebound at 6, keeps the tires stiff and return to the ground slower. Having bound at 6 and rebound at 7, will result in a good stiff compression of shocks and a higher bound means the tires return a bit faster to the ground but not too fast. This is the ideal configuration, a slightly higher rebound.

 

[MTLclllutch]

??? Really ??? Care to explain? When I put my real race car on the scales and adjust the spring perches, weight most definately moves around the car. Now GT5 isn't programed with individual spring adjustments on each corner, but some weight would move front or rear depending upon spring settings.

rwd often dont need anti roll bars in the back cause you dont want to transfer the load to the inside tires. harder springscan be used to prevent excessive jacking. Hard dampers would would load the other tires during corners. i could be wrong

 

[Johnnypenso]

Changing spring rates on individual tires in real life will change static weight distribution. If you increase for example the spring rate on opposite corners, you will increase the weight supported on those corners because in effect the suspension on those corners is pushing down harder against gravity.

But changing the static load in GT5 I don't think is possible because you can only change the front together and rear together. The only way to change the static load would be to dramatically change the rake of the car and even then, since we're usually only dealing with an inch or so on a lot of cars, it won't make much difference, on the static load, if any.

Now the dynamic load is different of course, as the car can change pitch and roll dramatically under braking and acceleration with changing spring rates and dampers front and rear.

 

[praiano63]

Oh boy now I am really confused

Praiano in your earlier post you said

Which to me is the opposite to what you posted below with reguard to the statements about the rebound/extension dampening ie lower values restrict the springs extension motion more than higher values.

Yes you are right, sorry , i copy and paste,but this guy on the link i give you invert the things by mistake , i understand like this, anyway.
-So number 1 low resistance and 10 big resistance. I see the dampers settings numbers like a proportion not a force unit.
-This resistance work against the mass transfer during accel or deccel , on bound and rebound of both front and rear dampers.
So like i've said:
-higher extension value = more resistance over the spring means slower extension / hard.
-higher compression value = more resistance over the spring means slower compression / hard

 

[Mixxer]

Ok thanks for the clarification

 

[Johnnypenso]

Bigger question would be has anyone done extensive testing to determine the effects in handling of higher/lower/equal extension damper settings, not only in terms of feel, but most importantly, does it affect lap times, one way or the other? Maybe that'll be my project for the day...lol.

My experience in GT5 has occasionally been that some changes make the car feel better but don't decrease lap times and sometimes things that make the car feel a little more sluggish, actually lower the lap times.

 

[praiano63]

Bigger question would be has anyone done extensive testing to determine the effects in handling of higher/lower/equal extension damper settings, not only in terms of feel, but most importantly, does it affect lap times, one way or the other? Maybe that'll be my project for the day...lol.

My experience in GT5 has occasionally been that some changes make the car feel better but don't decrease lap times and sometimes things that make the car feel a little more sluggish, actually lower the lap times.

The dampers are not influencing directly on more speed and consequently better lap time. I'm tuning actually 500 pp cars with hard sport tires, and this configuration is very sensible with weight displacement. When you set front and rear low value dampers ,compression and extension, you have a sensible small gain of grip under braking in straight and entering in a turn.
The problem is that this gain is difficult to maintain during a lap, because it turn also the car more difficult to control, it need a constant attention.
During a succession of turns for example, the weight is balanced at the 4 corners very quickly and if you loose the timing and don't stay smooth on the wheel , you will loose control easily.
So the way i've found is to increase the dampers value till i feel enough comfortable to be fast and constant during my lap. Higher value make the car safer but too much is bad for grip.
I never use to much different value between compression and extension on the same side front or rear , maximum 2 points difference.
It work for me like this.

 

[CyKosis1973]

I found this for 100% while testing the Stratos at the Nurb, with lower numbers on ext, which should make the suspension extend quicker, over some of the "jumps" my car was no longer even losing contact with the road at low settings.

Ah ha, you may have just put me onto something for the Touge Shootout. I'm having really problems with the track camber. Seems like I can apply almost any (sensible) spring rate to the car, with little or no effect on my times. However, going in hot on the brakes and through some of the off-camber corners, I'm having problems getting the car to stick. Throughout, my dampers have been set so that Ext is slightly stronger than Comp and the front slightly softer than rear. Maybe I need to leave the Comp alone and focus on Ext...

{Cy}

PS - For the record, I'm using an Impreza 22B ... love that car 👍 ... shame I'm struggling to do it justice... 👎

 

[Rotary Junkie]

I'm going to open my mouth and say something stupid.

I've found higher extension numbers to mean faster extension not only here but in GT4 as well. Actually thought it was the right way around when I first started GT4 drag racing... Then I tried the other way around and magically my car launches quicker!

@Cy: Front extension is too low. Also, try running identical front/rear dampers, I've found in most cases it results in a bit more predictable of handling.

 

[CyKosis1973]

I'm going to open my mouth and say something stupid.

I've found higher extension numbers to mean faster extension not only here but in GT4 as well. Actually thought it was the right way around when I first started GT4 drag racing... Then I tried the other way around and magically my car launches quicker!

@Cy: Front extension is too low. Also, try running identical front/rear dampers, I've found in most cases it results in a bit more predictable of handling.

Thank you Sir, I'll have a look at that later. I've tried different combinations of Comp/Ext and F/R, but haven't found the magic number yet. I think you could be right, running all 4 at the same number...

{Cy}