2016 Formula 1 Petronas Malaysia Grand PrixFormula 1

[prisonermonkeys]

There really needs to be a chart showing "type of incident" on one side and "type of penalty" on the other. What determines if something is either a drive-thru penalty, time penalty added on, or grid spot penalty? This needs to be defined and then they can work on the severity within each type of penalty.

The incident ruined Rosberg's race, even if he was able to keep going and recover to third, so a grid penalty was justified.

As for the contact with Räikkönen, both drivers were able to continue without damage, so the stewards gave a less severe penalty.

 

[sems4arsenal]

'Blaming God' added to list of Racing driver excuses heard in my lifetime.

 

[Dhalism]

Where are the sources? All I've heard Prost say is that Senna got preferential treatment from the Honda engineers who gravitated more towards him. Whether he's actually said it or not, I've never heard anything about the engines being out of Prost's favour, and Ron Dennis has flatly denied anything to that nature. Prost has said he'd see engines "for Senna" but that doesn't at all mean they were better than what Prost was getting (he even admitted it didn't mean that either, but said it made him feel odd seeing that). And I'm not sure about an advantage when all of Senna's engines (and gearboxes and other things) were blowing up...

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/october-1998/28/ayrton-senna-alain-prost

"Then we went to the French Grand Prix – at Ricard – and suddenly the engine was just as I had wanted! You understand what I'm saying? Ayrton and I raced for two seasons together in the McLaren Hondas, and at both the French Grands Prix I was on pole position and won the race. Everyone said, 'Oh look, it's Prost in front of his home crowd,' and that sort of thing. It was nothing like that; it was just that at those races I had something which enabled me to fight...

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's not the first time "conspiracy!" has been breathed in hushed tones. Remember when Hamilton had a string of mechanical failures in mid-2014? His brakes went in Germany and the engine ignited in Hungary, which led to accusations that Mercedes were favouring Rosberg because it was in the German team's interests to have a German driver win.

'Blaming God' added to list of Racing driver excuses heard in my lifetime.

It sounds like a load of rubbish to me. Admittedly, I don't think much of religion, but reading Hamilton's comments, it sounds like he's trying to mend some bridges. The media were quick to downplay his comments as "we all say things in the heat of the moment", but even if that's true, it's easy to inadvertently say what you really think. And like I said, Hamilton has a history of using the media to put pressure on the team.

 

[Conquerer]

http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article/october-1998/28/ayrton-senna-alain-prost

"Then we went to the French Grand Prix – at Ricard – and suddenly the engine was just as I had wanted! You understand what I'm saying? Ayrton and I raced for two seasons together in the McLaren Hondas, and at both the French Grands Prix I was on pole position and won the race. Everyone said, 'Oh look, it's Prost in front of his home crowd,' and that sort of thing. It was nothing like that; it was just that at those races I had something which enabled me to fight...

I've seen that as well and it doesn't confirm the idea either. Prost won multiple races and beat Senna to pole on other occasions (even if rarely). And sure, Prost won both those French races but had a late pass on Senna in traffic to take the lead in '88, and in '89 Senna got off the line ahead of Prost but suffered a mechanical failure before turn 1. So it's not as simple as that quote makes it, as if he dominated those races and barely competed in the others. And furthermore, if he could beat Senna to pole and in the race in 1988 in what would be an equal engine (since 1988 was equal and fair), why shouldn't he be able to do it again in 1989?

To suggest that an engine manufacturer would shoot its own foot by giving one of its drivers an inferior engine -- and that for some miraculous reason they'd give him an equal (or superior) engine for his home race -- does not compute. Senna, Mansell, and I believe Piquet often blasted Prost for never admitting to being at fault and always blaming the car. It seems more reasonable here that it was more of that than a conspiracy against him.

 

[Samus]

I'm also not religious however I don't see why it's hard to understand that someone who does have beliefs might question whether outside forces were at work in their misfortunes, even if I thought it was a load of nonsense. I've not seen any statement from Lewis where he actually suggests or insinuates he was scuppered, on purpose, by Mercedes team members. That is merely how some interpreted his "someone" statement.

 

[Dhalism]

I've seen that as well and it doesn't confirm the idea either. Prost won multiple races and beat Senna to pole on other occasions (even if rarely). And sure, Prost won both those French races but had a late pass on Senna in traffic to take the lead in '88, and in '89 Senna got off the line ahead of Prost but suffered a mechanical failure before turn 1. So it's not as simple as that quote makes it, as if he dominated those races and barely competed in the others. And furthermore, if he could beat Senna to pole and in the race in 1988 in what would be an equal engine (since 1988 was equal and fair), why shouldn't he be able to do it again in 1989?

To suggest that an engine manufacturer would shoot its own foot by giving one of its drivers an inferior engine -- and that for some miraculous reason they'd give him an equal (or superior) engine for his home race -- does not compute. Senna, Mansell, and I believe Piquet often blasted Prost for never admitting to being at fault and always blaming the car. It seems more reasonable here that it was more of that than a conspiracy against him.

Oh i was just being sarcastic, i thought my Senna avatar would make it obvious where my allegiances lie. I am well aware that Prost has complained about every car he has been in.

 

[Conquerer]

Oh i was just being sarcastic, i thought my Senna avatar would make it obvious where my allegiances lie. I am well aware that Prost has complained about every car he has been in.

I figured your first reply was sarcasm but responded since I have heard the claim before. At least from one ridiculous user on Youtube who, out of blind fandom, perpetuates the idea that Prost was receiving inferior engines in the comment section of just about every single Senna or Prost video. For me it's not about allegiance but logic and sense. I respect Prost tremendously and see him as a top five driver of all time in the sport, but I don't believe the claim (by him or anyone else) that he received inferior engines. And to clarify, I don't believe Prost has ever made that claim, but rather that he received lesser attention and treatment from Honda engineers.

 

[Dhalism]

I figured your first reply was sarcasm but responded since I have heard the claim before. At least from one ridiculous user on Youtube who, out of blind fandom, perpetuates the idea that Prost was receiving inferior engines in the comment section of just about every single Senna or Prost video. For me it's not about allegiance but logic and sense. I respect Prost tremendously and see him as a top five driver of all time in the sport, but I don't believe the claim (by him or anyone else) that he received inferior engines. And to clarify, I don't believe Prost has ever made that claim, but rather that he received lesser attention and treatment from Honda engineers.

Yea i agree. Part of the reason I brought it up is that these conspiracy theories are not unique to LH or his fans but can also come from a respected driver aptly nicknamed "The Professor" many year after the fact(instead of the heat of the moment).

 

[mustafur]

It's not the first time "conspiracy!" has been breathed in hushed tones. Remember when Hamilton had a string of mechanical failures in mid-2014? His brakes went in Germany and the engine ignited in Hungary, which led to accusations that Mercedes were favouring Rosberg because it was in the German team's interests to have a German driver win.


It sounds like a load of rubbish to me. Admittedly, I don't think much of religion, but reading Hamilton's comments, it sounds like he's trying to mend some bridges. The media were quick to downplay his comments as "we all say things in the heat of the moment", but even if that's true, it's easy to inadvertently say what you really think. And like I said, Hamilton has a history of using the media to put pressure on the team.

It's easy for us to say this or that but he just got screwed out of a win on the most exhausting race on the calender who knows what any of us would say in the same position.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It's easy for us to say this or that but he just got screwed out of a win on the most exhausting race on the calender who knows what any of us would say in the same position.

And if you viewed these comments in isolation, that would be understandable. But view it in the context of previous episodes where he has manipulated the media to put pressure on the team, and I think they have to be regarded with careful scepticism. After all, he was keeping a running tally of the engines - that Mercedes produced forty-three engines and all the faults and failures have struck him. It illustrates his point, but it's an odd statistic to simply know off the top of his head. It wasn't "Mercedes have produced over forty engines" or "Mercedes have produced, what ... forty, forty-five engines?", but "Mercedes have produced forty-three engines". I just find that to be an incredibly specific detail to use for a man who is very upset.

After all, I'm not playing mind games. But if I was playing mind games, then "I'm not playing mind games" is the first thing I would say.

 

[sems4arsenal]

I'm also not religious however I don't see why it's hard to understand that someone who does have beliefs might question whether outside forces were at work in their misfortunes, even if I thought it was a load of nonsense. I've not seen any statement from Lewis where he actually suggests or insinuates he was scuppered, on purpose, by Mercedes team members. That is merely how some interpreted his "someone" statement.

I am but If I was him I'd look at other reasons as well, maybe his driving style is the issue. And it's not like his engines explode every race, how many times has that happened to him during the 3 years he's been with the team?

 

[ShiftingGears]

The backpedaling from Hamilton begins!

 

[tribolik]

The Germans are very professional and extremely honest. They wouldn't fiddle with an engine just to fool the public, make some profit or to have a German driver win in a German car.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I am but If I was him I'd look at other reasons as well, maybe his driving style is the issue. And it's not like his engines explode every race, how many times has that happened to him during the 3 years he's been with the team?

What's so unusual about this failure is that there was no warning. Normally, the team get some indication that something is amiss, but this time the first sign of trouble was a loud bang as Hamilton came onto the main straight, and it was all over by the time he got to the first turn. It appears to have been a spontaneous blow-out and it is likely that there is nothing that Hamilton or Mercedes could have done to prevent it.

 

[Dotini]

The Germans are very professional and extremely honest. They wouldn't fiddle with an engine just to fool the public, make some profit or to have a German driver win in a German car.

In the years leading up to WWII, and later in the fifties, Mercedes-Benz (and Auto Union prewar) employed Jewish, English and Italian drivers as well as Germans, , all in the effort to have the best drivers. BUT, the managers, such as the highly autocratic Alfred Neubauer, did give orders and stage manage the finishes. But back then the drivers didn't have the nerve to complain about it. There was a pecking order, and they were usually happy to serve in their appointed place.

It should be remembered that GP racing, begun in 1906, was initially all about manufacturers showing off their wares to folks who in some cases had never seen an automobile before. A commercial matter. It only became a partially sporting affair much later.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

And if you viewed these comments in isolation, that would be understandable. But view it in the context of previous episodes where he has manipulated the media to put pressure on the team, and I think they have to be regarded with careful scepticism. After all, he was keeping a running tally of the engines - that Mercedes produced forty-three engines and all the faults and failures have struck him. It illustrates his point, but it's an odd statistic to simply know off the top of his head. It wasn't "Mercedes have produced over forty engines" or "Mercedes have produced, what ... forty, forty-five engines?", but "Mercedes have produced forty-three engines". I just find that to be an incredibly specific detail to use for a man who is very upset.

After all, I'm not playing mind games. But if I was playing mind games, then "I'm not playing mind games" is the first thing I would say.

I mean I agree that perhaps he shouldn't have said some of it, but it wasn't unjustified, which seems to be the persuasion you're trying to get other to come to. By claiming this is some grand scheme rather than a very talented driver, having another year of mechanical issues while trying to retain WDC.

Not only that, but Lewis even before Mercedes was plagued with Mechanical and team failure issues and thus something like that becoming a mainstay of any drivers career is going to come to a head and cause them to vent frustrations publicly. Which is what happened today, then again I realize who I'm posting to and it becomes apparent you already see it one way. So take what you will from my writing after this.

End of, he was highly frustrated at a disappointing result after doing everything right, when interviewed thanked his team more than once, and yet people see it as something sinister. "Hey John did you see Hamilton throw Mercedes under the bus big time?" Like how do you even...

I am but If I was him I'd look at other reasons as well, maybe his driving style is the issue. And it's not like his engines explode every race, how many times has that happened to him during the 3 years he's been with the team?

Problem is it's happened to others too, like Nico, but the luck factor is usually during practice for him, Nico from my memory has only had it happen in race twice. I doubt it either of their driving styles cause if it was, there would be some warning rather than sudden failure. Sudden failure tends to just be a part at random letting go and the whole thing is gone. In the end it really is that simple as bad luck and he deserves to be as pissed off as he is, as would any driver in the same boat.

 

[Dotini]

Hamilton speaks.

"I still have faith and hope. That’s a powerful thing. It feels a little bit like the man above, or a higher power, is intervening a little bit...If at the end of the year the higher powers don’t want me to be Champion after everything I’ve given towards it, I will have to accept that. As long as I end the year knowing that I’ve given it everything, done everything I could possibly do and that we’ve done everything we could possibly do, that’s all you can ask for. Don’t forget that I’m World Champion."

In his heartfelt and revealing statement, Lewis reveals much about his innermost beliefs, hopes and fears. He fears that he has not given everything, not done everything, that he possibly could have.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I mean I agree that perhaps he shouldn't have said some of it, but it wasn't unjustified, which seems to be the persuasion you're trying to get other to come to. By claiming this is some grand scheme rather than a very talented driver, having another year of mechanical issues while trying to retain WDC.

I think that the truth is somewhere between the two extremes. I doubt that there is a conspiracy, but at the same time, I don't really buy the woe-is-me attitude.

I think Hamilton is planting a seed of doubt in the media and the minds of fans. He doesn't need to be right; he just needs people to believe that there's something when nothing exists.

I know I keep bringing it back, but look at his comments about swapping the mechanics about. He questioned the wisdom of the decision, and what was the end result? More attention, more scrutiny, more pressure on the team. But what was the actual impact of the decision by the team? We don't know - it's entirely possible that Hamilton was better off with Rosberg's mechanics. Reading his words in this case, there appear to be a few well-chosen comments that I struggle to believe are the response of a man who is purely upset.

I'm not cynical enough to believe that everything Hamilton said was targeted at the team and wrapped up in play-acting. But nor am I naïve enough to believe that he was simply reacting to his situation; he's a three-time World Champion, and has been under considerably more pressure in the past. Rather, I think that his reaction is genuine, but at the same time, he's taking the opportunity to voice some concerns that have been on his mind for a while.

From his position, it's a win-win. He's fighting for his fouth title, and if using the situation to put pressure on the team offers an advantage, why not take it? And if it doesn't work, then at least it's cathartic and he can move on.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

You want there to be something planted, all I see with you bringing that back up is a guy that was frustrated then searching for answers and frustrated now searching for answers and blaming it on everything from himself to supernatural forces to his team slightly and on and on. You see one thing out of all those and you blow it up the most to show a character flaw that falls in line with your world view of him.

That's problem, why not look at it objectively. It's naive to think these people are competitors and not teenage girls causing drama, it's not naive to think he was reacting to the situation cause it's clear he was. I've seen drivers throw their team under the bus when stuff goes wrong, and it usually doesn't result in thanking them for the hard work they put in during the weekend and then later on clarifying that you basically blame god for smiting you and your team.

And if putting pressure on the team results in issues because of unnecessary bullcrap that in turn hurts him more. So I highly doubt it's this grand ploy that you're making it. Rather you should be writing up this novel instead of telling us.

 

[EDK]

It's not really a GP2 engine anymore. The development of the Honda engine during this year is really impressive. And it will hopefully be better still at Suzuka when they use the new spec engine.

I believe Alonso had the new spec engine this weekend, that's why he took all the grid penalties. Suzuka should favor the McLaren and Red Bulls, it's very much an aero track, we know that from Seb's championship years.

Apprently Sauber have been told by Ferrari not to admit any engine failures from their side to the media as Nasr got an Engine failure today but Sauber said it was a brake failure despite smoke coming from the engine.

And here I thought Ferrari have Evolved since sacking Prost for saying the car was a tank.

Would not be surprised to learn that was the only engine they have used so far this year, Sauber has been running on a shoestring budget.

I know they have investors now, but I'm pretty sure that's a 2015 spec car they have been running all this time.

 

[catamount39]

I believe Alonso had the new spec engine this weekend, that's why he took all the grid penalties. Suzuka should favor the McLaren and Red Bulls, it's very much an aero track, we know that from Seb's championship years.


Would not be surprised to learn that was the only engine they have used so far this year, Sauber has been running on a shoestring budget.

I know they have investors now, but I'm pretty sure that's a 2015 spec car they have been running all this time.

I believe you're correct. I think there was something back in the winter saying that it was a slightly upgraded 2015 car. Heck it has the same bodywork as last year I think.

 

[Conquerer]

I'm also not religious however I don't see why it's hard to understand that someone who does have beliefs might question whether outside forces were at work in their misfortunes, even if I thought it was a load of nonsense. I've not seen any statement from Lewis where he actually suggests or insinuates he was scuppered, on purpose, by Mercedes team members. That is merely how some interpreted his "someone" statement.

He also said, "My question is to Mercedes: we have so many engines - there are eight Mercedes cars - but mine are the only ones failing. Someone needs to give me answers." He's not directly saying it's a sabotage but that's a suspicious statement where he's questioning his team, not God.

 

[TheElbows]

While I don't believe Mercedes is intentionally sabotaging Lewis, I have no doubt that if they could simply make a decision on who would be WDC, they'd lean toward Rosberg. Lewis has had no shortage of failures in his various Mercedes units, but he's also frequently put on random/different strategies. Note that Rosberg wasn't running Strat 3 (more powah!) when Hamilton was. Now they were on different pit strategies etc...but I do get the feeling that Lewis is frequently the test bed for certain tires/strategies which are more risky. How many times have we heard him on the radio after certain pit stops "why did you put me on this tire?" when there seem to be better tire options etc.

There have been some instances too where Rosberg has been in a questionable position and more of the Mercedes folks seem to take his side.

Rosberg will likely win the WDC but it'll be down to this engine explosion and not beating Hamilton in actual races, which is a shame. I firmly believe Hamilton is the better driver, but - racing is racing. I'm shocked even to see an engine let go in today's F1 races.

 

[Betty blue]

If he's not winning then there's a conspiracy! That's the Brits. Rosberg had loads of bad luck in 2015, this is a mechanical sport, anything can happen. And Hamilton is not even as close as Vettel in terms of bad luck.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Further proof that you can't take Australians anywhere:

http://www.speedcafe.com/2016/10/03/aussie-f1-fans-arrested-stripping-malaysia/

One of them is reportedly a staffer for a senior government minister.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

I believe Alonso had the new spec engine this weekend, that's why he took all the grid penalties. Suzuka should favor the McLaren and Red Bulls, it's very much an aero track, we know that from Seb's championship years.


Would not be surprised to learn that was the only engine they have used so far this year, Sauber has been running on a shoestring budget.

I know they have investors now, but I'm pretty sure that's a 2015 spec car they have been running all this time.

Most people are running a massive or slightly upgraded car from 2015 even the front runner, Sauber brougth a b-spec once the giant Ericsson check cleared and were bought.

 

[mustafur]

Further proof that you can't take Australians anywhere:

http://www.speedcafe.com/2016/10/03/aussie-f1-fans-arrested-stripping-malaysia/

One of them is reportedly a staffer for a senior government minister.

I can't believe you can get arrested for that.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

I can't believe you can get arrested for that.

It's considered to be akin to indecent exposure. Malaysia is a pretty conservative country, and while they might be okay with sunbathers wearing such attire on the beach, they're less okay with foreigners wearing Malaysian-flag speedos, getting drunk and acting like a pack of idiots in front of the world.