2024 Formula 1 Constructors threadFormula 1

[Fezzik]

Weren't both Mclarens slower than both Ferraris in straight line speed with and without DRS though?

Virtually identical either way. Maybe the benefit is to reduce the disadvantage on the straights vs the other top teams.

 

[Fezzik]

FIA says McLaren rear wing complies with rules after Red Bull raised questions about legality

Formula 1’s governing body says McLaren’s rear wing complies with the rules after rivals Red Bull raised questions about its legality.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[TheCracker]

Virtually identical either way. Maybe the benefit is to reduce the disadvantage on the straights vs the other top teams.

Seems to me that the advantage McLaren were looking for was not to be any quicker on the straights, but to have more downforce through the corners. They can essentially run 'more wing' than the other teams yet loose little to no speed difference on the long straights. With DRS activated they were slower (if only by a touch) then their rivals, but when closed they were there or thereabouts, which to me sounds like their closed wing is artificially DRSing due to some flexing trickery, but trickery that doesn't fall foul of the regs.

 

[Liquid]

but trickery that doesn't fall foul of the regs.

Other teams will be quick to try and get it banned though.

Funnily enough I was recently watching the 1998 season review where the 1997 and 1998 McLarens' independent rear brakes caused an issue and Ferrari successfully protested to get it banned. Ron Dennis quite pertinently commented that "the only response that a rival team has is to try and find a way to have it banned rather than rise to the technical challenge."

And I'm sure McLaren has done the same in the past as well with other teams' trickery. Standard F1 dummy-throwing.

 

[Jimlaad43]

The other teams (IIRC Red Bull mostly) were pretty up front about how expensive developing their own DAS system would be, so getting it banned was the cheapest way of levelling that playing field.

 

[sillybilly]

Seems to me that the advantage McLaren were looking for was not to be any quicker on the straights, but to have more downforce through the corners. They can essentially run 'more wing' than the other teams yet loose little to no speed difference on the long straights. With DRS activated they were slower (if only by a touch) then their rivals, but when closed they were there or thereabouts, which to me sounds like their closed wing is artificially DRSing due to some flexing trickery, but trickery that doesn't fall foul of the regs.

This is plausible but a counter points:

• If the 'more wing' was significant wouldn't Piatri have been able to pull a gap in the middle sector and break the DRS?
• Did LeClerc seemed to run many more hard middle sectors in dirty air to stay in DRS zone - Piastri wasn't able to continue in the first stint with a serious chase. Or he/team felt/knew that it would damage the tyres too much even if they were running 'more wing' than the rival ahead?

I think it's a tea cup storm and don't think it made the difference. If LeClerc defended a little harder after the pitstop and forced Piastri to run dirty air for 4 or 5 more laps then he would have cruised to win.

The race was amazing because there genuinely seemed like almost no difference in car performance and the result was almost completely down to the drivers actions.

 

[MagpieRacer]

The other teams (IIRC Red Bull mostly) were pretty up front about how expensive developing their own DAS system would be, so getting it banned was the cheapest way of levelling that playing field.

This is what it comes down to. It'll get outlawed in the off season, Mclaren have just been very clever with the design to ensure it complies with all the regulations, both static and from the rear facing camera with the sensors.

 

[DK]

On a related note, the FIA requested prior to Singapore that McLaren tweak that rear wing. Something tells me that it didn't peg them back as much as Horner, Wolff or Vasseur would've hoped.

 

[Fezzik]

They didn't use that particular specification wing in Singapore, and won't until Las Vegas, so we don't know until then. Their car is just better than the others at the moment, with or without the "mini DRS".

 

[Alfred1]

Ferrari team principal Fred Vasseur has revealed the small upgrade for the car at the upcoming Formula 1 United States Grand Prix will be the Scuderia's last of the season.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ferraris-small-austin-upgrade-will-be-last-of-f1-season/10658548/

 

[Rossell2]

Alpine to close works engine programme at the end of 2025

Alpine have announced plans for a so-called ‘Hypertech’ transformation project that will include their Formula 1 power unit department ceasing operations at the end of next year.

www.formula1.com

Alpine shuts down the engine department at the end of 2025 but will move them into a new department dedicated to engine... Stuff. That is if they keep their word, but Alpine are normally quite good at that sort of thing.

 

[Veinz]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the workers protest this. 2025 is going to a rough year for Alpine.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Alpine to close works engine programme at the end of 2025

Alpine have announced plans for a so-called ‘Hypertech’ transformation project that will include their Formula 1 power unit department ceasing operations at the end of next year.

www.formula1.com

Alpine shuts down the engine department at the end of 2025 but will move them into a new department dedicated to engine... Stuff. That is if they keep their word, but Alpine are normally quite good at that sort of thing.

Rumour has it they want to use Mercedes engines from 2026 so this tracks.

Renault at this point must be absolutely bleeding money into the F1 project and surely are considering ditching/selling it.

 

[Liquid]

A manufacturer using another manufacturer's engines is a sure sign of a healthy, viable project.

 

[toastet]

A manufacturer using another manufacturer's engines is a sure sign of a healthy, viable project.

You mean like McLaren and Aston?

 

[Liquid]

You mean like McLaren and Aston?

Come on, that's disingenuous. I don't recall McLaren and this Aston Martin ever having their own engine programmes, irrespective of previous works deals for them both. McLaren had over 40 years of history as a racing team before it became a serious road car manufacturer. Unlike 1959, this Aston Martin slaps its name on Silverstone GP, a team founded in 1991, to put it bluntly.

That's a world of difference from Renault having a long-established works team and engine programme, and abandoning that engine programme to become a customer team. Although I acknowledge that Renault is a historical flip-flopper who bought Enstone Formula for this particular incarnation of their team.

Team continuity sucks.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Worth noting that Mercedes use a healthy chunk of Renaults engines in road cars.

 

[toastet]

Alpine also never ran own engines and doesn't even build own engines for roadcars so running Renault ones on the road and in F1 is as fine as running anything else. Many people would be very excited finding the AMG 4.0 V8TT in an new roadcar 2026 Alpine A310/V6 (or V8 then). Especially with Alpine getting fully electric on the road in the near future it probably makes even more sense buying a petrol engine somewhere else.

Not blaming Aston Martin and McLaren for running Merc or soon Aston Martin - Honda while blaming Alpine just doesn't make sense. Customer team McLaren is likely to win one or both championships this year. Wasting a lot of money for an own (or parent companys) name on your engine doesn't make sense in current F1. Not a single customer will not buy an A110 because Alpine F1 is running Merc engines. Nobody outside of small parts of the F1 bubble does even care. Nobody was interested in Renault or Honda winning all those titles with Red Bull the last 15 years.

 

[MagpieRacer]

Alpine also never ran own engines and doesn't even build own engines for roadcars so running Renault ones on the road and in F1 is as fine as running anything else. Many people would be very excited finding the AMG 4.0 V8TT in an new roadcar 2026 Alpine A310/V6 (or V8 then). Especially with Alpine getting fully electric on the road in the near future it probably makes even more sense buying a petrol engine somewhere else.

Not blaming Aston Martin and McLaren for running Merc or soon Aston Martin - Honda while blaming Alpine just doesn't make sense. Customer team McLaren is likely to win one or both championships this year. Wasting a lot of money for an own (or parent companys) name on your engine doesn't make sense in current F1. Not a single customer will not buy an A110 because Alpine F1 is running Merc engines. Nobody outside of small parts of the F1 bubble does even care. Nobody was interested in Renault or Honda winning all those titles with Red Bull the last 15 years.

Alpine are Renault though so the 'not own engines' thing isn't true.

Things like the current Mercedes A class, variations of the C class, B class and even G class use Renault-Nissan developed engines. The Alpine A110 used a variation of the Nissan developed Renault Megane Sport engine. It's all a bit of a mess really and everyone uses the same stuff so ultimately you're right in that no one really will care and it certainly won't damage sales.

Arguably, Aston Martin Honda is the weirder of the deals, with Mercedes it was understandable as again, Aston used AMG power plants for a lot of their cars. I can't see them shoving a Civic Type R engine in the next DB model though.

 

[Liquid]

can't see them shoving a Civic Type R engine in the next DB model though.

A Civic Type-R with an Aston Martin V12 would be pretty fun.

 

[Jimlaad43]

There's a rumour floating about that F1 is wanting to host a "Car Launch event" of sorts, where all teams launch their 2025 cars in the same place at the same time as a grand ticketed event.

I'd assume the cars are launched one-by-one in like a reverse Constructors Championship order with each team given like 10 or 15 minutes to show the car, chat to the drivers and say a few sponsors names.

Thoughts? Personally, I'm a bit on the fence. Having the launches together and having them standardised as an event makes it cool because we don't get badly dripfed a bunch of liveries, CGI pictures and a barrage of leaks.
On the other hand, it means we have all the headlines at the same time and the more dull cars won't get any headline time. Basically the most striking or radical car of the 10 will be front page, while the Sauber or RB will just be a one-line footnote.

Still, as 90% of car launches nowadays are usually disappointing, this sounds fun, especially if it's more accessible to the public to at least get tickets for.

 

[Rossell2]

I couldn't think of anything worse. Half the fun is the drip feed of launches over the weeks and let's be honest everybody skips the live streams and go straight for the pictures. Good luck getting 18,000 just for that.

 

[MagpieRacer]

I think its a cool idea, launches recently have been boring and CGI driven nonsense.

If it's a one off for the 75th anniversary then I'm game.

 

[Liquid]

Ambitious to get all the teams ready to present at the same time. A launch with last year's car in an updated livery would be pretty embarrassing.

 

[Spacegoat]

Toyota back in F1 forming a technical partnership with Haas. Hope this goes better for Toyota than their fully fledged factory effort did.

 

[05XR8]

That’s cool. Wonder if the cars will have black liveries.

 

[Liquid]

Looks like Dallara is out of the picture then if TGR is making the cars.

 

[-Fred-]

So, if I understand correctly, Toyota/GR will build the chassis but Ferrari will still supply the powertrain for the forseeable future?

 

[McLaren]

So, if I understand correctly, Toyota/GR will build the chassis but Ferrari will still supply the powertrain for the forseeable future?

According to the race-department, seems like TGR will be taking over in almost everything else but the powertrain.

Under its Toyota partnership, Haas will still be a Ferrari customer team and buy parts from the Italian team. Komatsu has previously described that arrangement as “the foundation” of the Haas model, and earlier this year the Ferrari deal was renewed until the end of 2028.
While that means there is no Toyota engine in the offing, there are many ways TGR will assist Haas by gradually taking over in areas Ferrari and Dallara are key in: aerodynamic development, simulation work, and parts manufacturing will all be possible.

 

[EngieDiesel]

Meanwhile, Michael Andretti is stepping down from the ownership role of Andretti F1:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/andretti-f1-plans-unchanged-after-ownership-change/10661970/

He's bowing out the ownership role of his Indycar team too, so I get the feeling he's in the "done with this" phase at this point (whether by choice or by boardroom decision). Regardless, I doubt we'll be seeing that 11th team on the grid anytime soon.