2024 Touring Car Thread - BTCC, TCR, and more.Touring Cars 

Those NAPA Ford's are looking like serious business this year. Don't have a strong preference for a title winner this year, but I would quite to see Cammish win, especially after 2019.

That said, say what you want about Sutton, but I think it would be satisfying to see him match Turkingtons 4 titles, and get his 1st in FWD. Long way to go yet though.

Great battles in the midfield in race 1 there. Thompson definitely a dark horse for this weekend. Hopeful for potentially a Team HARD podium perhaps 🤞.
 
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Ideally, Turk, Hill, Sutton and Cammish should be a 4 way fight on final day... they've all got the skills and the cars to do it... it really just depends where the dice lands on getting caught up and/or punted off throughout the season.
 
I'd probably throw Ingram into the mix as well. He's had a fairly average start to the season, but he's consistent enough across a season usually. But who knows given how competitive the grid is these days.
 
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A disappointing way to lose a win with a track limits penalty for Collard, but that's how it goes. Even more awkward that he didn't get the message over the radio it seems. A shame as he had a great race.

But what a drive from Sutton :eek:. Gained what? 7 places on lap 1 alone with 10 places gained overall...Fair play. Elsewhere, good to see Thompson P2 for Team HARD, and Ingram consistent as ever.

Those NAPA Ford's look the best FWD cars right now, but it's a tight margin.

(Apologies, didn't realise I've double posted)
 
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Michelin Man
A disappointing way to lose a win with a track limits penalty for Collard, but that's how it goes. Even more awkward that he didn't get the message over the radio it seemed post race. A shame as he had a great race.

But what a drive from Sutton :eek:. Gained what, 7 places on lap 1 alone with 10 places gained overall...Fair play. Elsewhere, good to see Thompson got a podium for Team HARD, and Ingram consistent as ever.

Those NAPA Ford's look the best FWD cars right now, but it's a tight margin.
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DAMN TRACK LIMIT RULES!
 
Michelin Man
Even more awkward that he didn't get the message over the radio it seemed post race. A shame as he had a great race.
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Yeah, I get them not telling him during the race, maybe hoping they can get straight to appeal. I have to say, I didn't notice Collard doing anything that nobody else was.

I've said it many times before, and I'll probably say it many times again, I don't like Sutton, but you really can't fault his driving. Sometimes he drives like an absolute monster, but somehow manages to keep pretty much impeccably clean (for touring car standards). I'm a big Turk fan, but races like this, where he just puts in a completely anonymous performance are frustrating.
 
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The fact the track limits are governed by someone the naked eye, and a corner-by-corner basis, is what makes it more controversial. So the consistency of its ruling right gets questioned, when it's not being policed as clearly as perhaps expected.

So I can understand Ricky's frustration, as it didn't seem like he was doing anything different.
 
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As Ingram pointed out, it might not be the same corner by corner, race by race, but it's not like other drivers haven't been pinged for it. Ricky certainly seemed to take it personally, going on TV and suggesting it's some kind of grudge against the Collard family is not cool - going on TV to whinge about how unfair it is when you don't win is one of the reasons I keep saying I don't like Sutton!

Big shame though at the end of the day. Excellent performance by both him and Sutton.
 
The fact that the BTCC is actually enforcing Track Limits is brilliant. For too long the series has been letting the drivers ignore them without penalty and they have been the absolute worst offenders. If drivers get penalised, they stop doing it. Simple as.
 
Jimlaad43
The fact that the BTCC is actually enforcing Track Limits is brilliant. For too long the series has been letting the drivers ignore them without penalty and they have been the absolute worst offenders. If drivers get penalised, they stop doing it. Simple as.
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Still room for improvement regarding the rules on track limits though if Tim Harvey's words are anything to go by.
 
Jimlaad43
The fact that the BTCC is actually enforcing Track Limits is brilliant. For too long the series has been letting the drivers ignore them without penalty and they have been the absolute worst offenders. If drivers get penalised, they stop doing it. Simple as.
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It's got to be communicated to the fans though, as Tim said, it's like the 3rd or 4th warning before there's a penalty. By all accounts Ricky didn't know he was a due a penalty, like he'd not had on track warnings... the fans wouldn't have had a clue.. that's just not good enough.
 
Tim Harvey moaning does not mean a rule is bad, it just means Tim doesn't know what he's talking about. The premier class of racing in the country cannot continue ignoring rules that are enforced in every other club event. Ironically, Tim wasn't complaining last weekend at Silverstone when he was racing in a club event and had to abide by the rules himself. Collard likes to drive off track all the time and paid the price. Other drivers got warnings regularly and kept it on track. These are supposed to be the best drivers in the country, I work with them and they are unbelievably talented drivers who know how to position a car exactly where they want it. Obeying track limits is not hard and it doesn't spoil the show to enforce it, it stops drivers being lazy and sets an example for the entire rest of club racing across the country.
 
Jimlaad43
Tim Harvey moaning does not mean a rule is bad, it just means Tim doesn't know what he's talking about.
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He raises a good point, it's not track limits that are the problem, it's the consistency in enforcing them.... but from the viewers perspective - separate from Tim's - why is that the first thing people hear? Nothing, then 10 sec. penalty. If there is 2-4 stages in process why didn't we see it?
 
Turkington now also outright 2nd on the all time wins list with 64, moving past Matt Neal with his win today. Some way behind Jason Plato's 97, but Colin has done nearly 150 fewer races.
 
MatskiMonk
He raises a good point, it's not track limits that are the problem, it's the consistency in enforcing them.... but from the viewers perspective - separate from Tim's - why is that the first thing people hear? Nothing, then 10 sec. penalty. If there is 2-4 stages in process why didn't we see it?
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I agree.

Justified or not, 10 seconds is also a bit harsh, means Ricky doesn't even get a podium after all his hard work.
 
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MatskiMonk
I'm a big Turk fan, but races like this, where he just puts in a completely anonymous performance are frustrating.
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He's the very definition of playing-the-long-game. He gets the job done on a Saturday then keeps his nose clean on the Sunday to bank the points. With a season of 30 races, that's the way of keeping yourself in contention for the title. As long as you're in a decently competitive car to start with.

I do find him boring to watch though because of it.
 
TheCracker
He's the very definition of playing-the-long-game. He gets the job done on a Saturday then keeps his nose clean on the Sunday to bank the points. With a season of 30 races, that's the way of keeping yourself in contention for the title. As long as you're in a decently competitive car to start with.

I do find him boring to watch though because of it.
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He's certainly a sensible and fair racer, I'm not convinced that's always the best strategy though in the BTCC. Or at least, drivers of championship winning calibre should be able to drive the nuts off the car and still keep a pretty clean sheet. That's what Sutton seems to do so well.

2017 Sutton beat him by 21 points, with the same number of retirements through the season.
2019 he only won by 2 points against AJ and AJ had two DNFs and two DNSs.
2020 Sutton beat him by 14 points, Turk DNF'd 3 races, Sutton none.
2021 Sutton beat him to the title by 51 points, both drivers with 1 DNF.
2022 He finished 4th, with the combined number of non finishes as the 3 guys ahead of him

Don't get me wrong, like I say, I'm a big fan of Turkington, seeing him race in the RAC 320si back in 2007 is one of the reasons I bought a 320si (!), generally I think it's a travesty that Turk's never been offered a proper factory drive with BMW, and it's bonkers there's been seasons when he couldn't secure a WSR drive... he's great, but wheel to wheel with Sutton, I'm not sure if playing it safe will get him to title number 5 first - with Sutton and Cammish in a properly competitive car, I don't see Turk doing it this year.
 
Thing with Turk is he absolutely turns it on when he needs to, at Snetterton a few years back he drove like a man possessed, was a brilliant watch. Generally he tries to keep his nose clean for sure, but when the need to push arises he can gun it and is a very hard racer when needed.

I do love watching Sutton though, he's just exciting to watch a majority of the time, and whenever I've been at the track watching love he's is just on max attack more than anyone else. Even at the tyre test at Snetterton last year, he was visibly, clearly faster than anyone else though Brundle, 3 wheels, late braking.
 
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MatskiMonk
He's certainly a sensible and fair racer, I'm not convinced that's always the best strategy though in the BTCC. Or at least, drivers of championship winning calibre should be able to drive the nuts off the car and still keep a pretty clean sheet. That's what Sutton seems to do so well.

2017 Sutton beat him by 21 points, with the same number of retirements through the season.
2019 he only won by 2 points against AJ and AJ had two DNFs and two DNSs.
2020 Sutton beat him by 14 points, Turk DNF'd 3 races, Sutton none.
2021 Sutton beat him to the title by 51 points, both drivers with 1 DNF.
2022 He finished 4th, with the combined number of non finishes as the 3 guys ahead of him

Don't get me wrong, like I say, I'm a big fan of Turkington, seeing him race in the RAC 320si back in 2007 is one of the reasons I bought a 320si (!), generally I think it's a travesty that Turk's never been offered a proper factory drive with BMW, and it's bonkers there's been seasons when he couldn't secure a WSR drive... he's great, but wheel to wheel with Sutton, I'm not sure if playing it safe will get him to title number 5 first - with Sutton and Cammish in a properly competitive car, I don't see Turk doing it this year.
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In 2018, Turk won by 12 points from Tingram but this was partly because Tingram was disqualified for failing a ride-height test after coming 2nd on the road in Race 2.
 
MatskiMonk
He raises a good point, it's not track limits that are the problem, it's the consistency in enforcing them.... but from the viewers perspective - separate from Tim's - why is that the first thing people hear? Nothing, then 10 sec. penalty. If there is 2-4 stages in process why didn't we see it?
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I think it is the track limit rules that are the problem, I really don't understand how UK Motorsport has got into the position it's created such a ridiculous rule in the first place. I can understand there's a few places where track limits are required, for instance where there's a run off for safety reasons that could be massively abused otherwise.

For a track like Brands Hatch there's nothing like that, the whole circuit has natural limits that do the job perfectly. There's so many things wrong with unnecessary track limit rules. From a driving point of view it feels crap driving to an articially painted line, from a spectators point of view it also doesn't look so spectacular. Driving a car to the natural limits of the circuit is much more exciting to both do and to watch.

As we saw on Sunday, it's also bad from a spectators point of view to have what was a thrilling dice for the win instead decided by an official looking at whether a car crossed a painted line or not. It must be gutting and so frustrating for a driver to lose a win like that. Whereas if you lost it because you ran wide, put a wheel on the grass or in the gravel you're left in no doubt it was your mistake, you can take it on the chin and resolve not to make the same mistake next time.

There was a farcial situation in the end of season FIA F3 showdown at Monza last year, where multiple track limit penalties kept getting announced one by one during a red flag stoppage. Penalites that changed the points scored by title contenders and potentially affecting the outcome of the championship.
 
MetalApe
I think it is the track limit rules that are the problem, I really don't understand how UK Motorsport has got into the position it's created such a ridiculous rule in the first place. I can understand there's a few places where track limits are required, for instance where there's a run off for safety reasons that could be massively abused otherwise.

For a track like Brands Hatch there's nothing like that, the whole circuit has natural limits that do the job perfectly. There's so many things wrong with unnecessary track limit rules. From a driving point of view it feels crap driving to an articially painted line, from a spectators point of view it also doesn't look so spectacular. Driving a car to the natural limits of the circuit is much more exciting to both do and to watch.

As we saw on Sunday, it's also bad from a spectators point of view to have what was a thrilling dice for the win instead decided by an official looking at whether a car crossed a painted line or not. It must be gutting and so frustrating for a driver to lose a win like that. Whereas if you lost it because you ran wide, put a wheel on the grass or in the gravel you're left in no doubt it was your mistake, you can take it on the chin and resolve not to make the same mistake next time.

There was a farcial situation in the end of season FIA F3 showdown at Monza last year, where multiple track limit penalties kept getting announced one by one during a red flag stoppage. Penalites that changed the points scored by title contenders and potentially affecting the outcome of the championship.
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No it's definitely the consistency in the application. Driving to white painted lines is easy if the rules are applied correctly and consistently at every round to every driver, but they aren't. This creates a feeling like what you're describing. It's easy for the fans to understand that the limit/boundary of the circuit is the white line, that's nothing new.
 
One thing I'm not clear on, is what the definition of the kerb is. Like at Paddock Hill bend, there's green concrete between the painted red & white kerb, and the gravel, is that part of the kerb or not.. same on the inside of Graham Hill bend.
 
Har1MAS1415
Roll on this weekend's BTCC meeting at Snetterton!
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Looking forward to it, gutted I couldn't make it this year as it's only 20 minutes down the road but business and children exist!

It's being run much earlier than normal, and certainly compared to last year will be much, much cooler. We have had plenty of rain in Norfolk recently so the grass will be greener and stickier than the past few years where it has been very, very dry, so off track excursions will hurt more.

BMW usually very strong here, but Motorbase look to have one of the best packages on the grid right now.
 
MagpieRacer
Looking forward to it, gutted I couldn't make it this year as it's only 20 minutes down the road but business and children exist!

It's being run much earlier than normal, and certainly compared to last year will be much, much cooler. We have had plenty of rain in Norfolk recently so the grass will be greener and stickier than the past few years where it has been very, very dry, so off track excursions will hurt more.

BMW usually very strong here, but Motorbase look to have one of the best packages on the grid right now.
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Just hope everyone will be that bit wiser about track limits for the time being.
 

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