GTPNewsWire
Contributing Writer
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This is the discussion thread for a recent post on GTPlanet:
This article was published by Michael Leary (@Terronium-12) on March 29th, 2018 in the Formula One category.
Formula One 2018: Rivals Want "Magic" Haas-Ferrari Relationship Investigated
- Thread starter GTPNewsWire
- 31 comments
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- 20,681
- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I remember when I called this out before even testing, and I was told I was wrong on this forum...hmmm colored me surprised
- 694
- Cascadia
- RialRacingRoots
- Crashbroke23
The "magic" is called money. They finally have some tangible cash from F1's revenue system to put to use in actually making their cars good. It's not rocket science.
- 1,001
- Jakarta
- Normalaatsra
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
How is it British salt? Considering all walks are making this claim from the F1 fandom.
- 1,001
- Jakarta
- Normalaatsra
National support towards Lewis Hamilton, it's not uncommon. At the Australia GP all the fans are rooting for Riciardo to be in podium. Verstappen also spawned a new line of Oranje merchandise for Red Bull for Dutch fans.
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- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
No one is saying it's not common, what the heck does it have to do with article posted? You've basically gone out of your way to insert something related to F1 but not to the actual subject being discussed within F1, for poo and giggles. Would you like to talk about the article instead???
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- Switzerland
Cheering for someone is one thing, being more pathetic than soccer fanboys is another one altogether.
Back on topic.. an home page article about the matter is rather intriguing. Gotta love the mention of BrawnGp.
Popcorn?
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- Shottah072
It is a pretty smart collaboration they got going on. The problem for Haas though is that by not developing much of their own parts there will be less upgrades to the package over the course of a season. A year old Ferrari chassis with a new spec engine might do good the first couple races but will drop down the ranks when others improve.
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- Finland
- HI-tauer
They should investigate McLaren as well while they are at it. They made a gigantic leap over the past few years and I can't figure out why.
Yeah.. They took a leap of fate with Honda, and they run out of luck..
Actually to me theres a point here. Might not be Ferrari pushing Haas but F1 helping them instead as they are trying to make F1 big in America.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
The FIA are based in France, not America. Besides that there's nothing that Haas have done that another team couldn't have done. If Ferrari had been willing then Sauber could have done the same in the past, so could Torro Rosso (arguably a more likely candidate in some respects, though Ferrari may have been more likely to say no). The statement from Charlie Whiting says that they're quite happy that Haas have designed all the bits they're meant to and that they've only bought the bits they can legally buy.
If we see any change from this it'll be in the way that teams approach designing and building a car. If Haas can (admittedly for one race so far) pull that kind of performance out of such a small team then bigger teams with larger budgets will look to do the same.
Dotini
(Banned)
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- Seattle
- CR80_Shifty
One flukey race is not enough to understand what is going on here. I agree Haas may well fall down the pack for several reasons. But it is undeniable that the Ferrari engine and front suspension that the customer is getting, this year, is well and truly up to the job.
Isn't Red Bull up for contract renewal with Renault? Wouldn't they like a Ferrari engine, totally same spec as the factory team? Somehow I doubt Ferrari would do that.
Isn't Red Bull up for contract renewal with Renault? Wouldn't they like a Ferrari engine, totally same spec as the factory team? Somehow I doubt Ferrari would do that.
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- Monni72
What idiots ...just point out the rules lol are you sticking to them or not? This is why I don't like F1 its a bunch of crybabies. Coulda woulda shoulda....stick to the rules you make or be another corrupt organisation. Only interested in money and broadcasting it seems where is the integrity...if this is the case its not good for drivers
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- GTP_Superwally, supahwally
Haas' aero team is split between the Ferrari wind tunnel and the CFD team in North Carolina USA. Few people understand the high capability of Haas' CFD team, and the reasons why. There is a great article detailing the relationship here:
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/147903-insight-what-does-haas-u-s-base-actually-do
These cheating claims are pretty sad, really. Based on the responses in the comments section over at motorsport.com, not many people are buying it, and Haas is gaining fans and respect. Anti-Haas comments get few likes and a lot of pushback. Pro Haas comments get lots of thumbs up. Likes don't mean much as far as hard data goes, but it can tell you which way the wind is blowing.
There is a Halo on the 2018 cars, none in 2017-and that's the Ferrari the paddock and press are saying Haas copied, not the 2018 car. All the teams commented how hard it was to implement, an how different it made building the car, and how it made the car heavy, raising the center of gravity. Suddenly when comparing the two cars, the Halo becomes invisible. Pretty strange considering that's all anyone has been able to talk about since testing.
And that's just the beginning of what people are ignoring (or choosing to focus on) when it comes to scrutinizing Haas.
McLaren should have stayed out of this tiff, yet they seem to be leading the charge. They are supposed to be challenging Red Bull this year, right? This Haas bashing looks like a very Trumpian attempt at attention-deflection. Focus on the rival-on-the-rise to cover our lack of performance, and be loud about it, so nobody questions what's going on behind your doors. It's one thing for Force India to say something, but McLaren? How far they have fallen.
Point me to the tech article (by someone with legit aero understanding, not 'the internet says so') comparing the two cars. Side by side pictures on a random website isn't going to cut it.
Haas said at the beginning of testing, they have designed a very light car. Maybe they just did a better job of Halo implementation and structural analysis than the other teams. Wait, that's not possible, the more money you have the better you are, right Europeans? It's not right when people spend more but finish behind those who spent less. That's unfair! I paid to win.
The way Haas have arrived in F1 is a model for the future success of the series. Unfortunately it wasn't a British or EU team that came up with it, so here we are.
http://www.racer.com/f1/item/147903-insight-what-does-haas-u-s-base-actually-do
These cheating claims are pretty sad, really. Based on the responses in the comments section over at motorsport.com, not many people are buying it, and Haas is gaining fans and respect. Anti-Haas comments get few likes and a lot of pushback. Pro Haas comments get lots of thumbs up. Likes don't mean much as far as hard data goes, but it can tell you which way the wind is blowing.
There is a Halo on the 2018 cars, none in 2017-and that's the Ferrari the paddock and press are saying Haas copied, not the 2018 car. All the teams commented how hard it was to implement, an how different it made building the car, and how it made the car heavy, raising the center of gravity. Suddenly when comparing the two cars, the Halo becomes invisible. Pretty strange considering that's all anyone has been able to talk about since testing.
And that's just the beginning of what people are ignoring (or choosing to focus on) when it comes to scrutinizing Haas.
McLaren should have stayed out of this tiff, yet they seem to be leading the charge. They are supposed to be challenging Red Bull this year, right? This Haas bashing looks like a very Trumpian attempt at attention-deflection. Focus on the rival-on-the-rise to cover our lack of performance, and be loud about it, so nobody questions what's going on behind your doors. It's one thing for Force India to say something, but McLaren? How far they have fallen.
Point me to the tech article (by someone with legit aero understanding, not 'the internet says so') comparing the two cars. Side by side pictures on a random website isn't going to cut it.
Haas said at the beginning of testing, they have designed a very light car. Maybe they just did a better job of Halo implementation and structural analysis than the other teams. Wait, that's not possible, the more money you have the better you are, right Europeans? It's not right when people spend more but finish behind those who spent less. That's unfair! I paid to win.
The way Haas have arrived in F1 is a model for the future success of the series. Unfortunately it wasn't a British or EU team that came up with it, so here we are.
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
Haas (Gunther Steiner) have admitted copying the 2017 Ferrari in some respects but, as Steiner points out, why wouldn't they? Every other team has been free to do the same. The Haas 2018 suspension is the Ferrari 2018 suspension, not the 2017 suspension.
I agree.
We don't know that, Ferrari were instrumental in Haas's pre-F1 season and may well have driven some of the thinking in this development.
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- HamiltonMP427
How was that the point? When it was initially a comment on British media making a big huff, and relating them to being nothing but Hamilton support. The point is others saw this before Australia, that aren't British. Alonso being one of them.
Fact of the matter is this was something predicted by a few on here, and even more during winter testing. So the surprise speed by Haas in Australia isn't all that surprising. You tie that in with an owner that has plenty of money to bring to help his team gain ground, and a team that closed up show on the 2017 car super early to focus on a 2018 car due to brake by wire issues.
@superwally While I agree alot with what you're saying the CFD team would need to have data from Ferrari wind tunnel to run simulations on CFD through. I imagine they probably send scale models to the windshear Haas owns, since the simulation code is probably anchored to that for the CFD.
As for the 2017 car not having a Halo so how is the 2018 a copy of the 2017...easy, it's not something hard to add and readjust, and considering each car in 2017 at some point tested the halo, finding an image of the mock up and trying to redo would be simple.
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Afaik the chassis is made by a 3rd party Dallara, wind tunnel tested in the Ferrari tunnel. Engine, gearbox, suspension is Ferrari.
Surely a fair bit of Ferrari but who would blame McLaren, Red Bull etc for using Renault engine,gearbox and suspension?
Besides Alonso claimed their car was the fastest if it wasn't for the Honda engine. So surely they are gonna beat red bull this year..
Surely a fair bit of Ferrari but who would blame McLaren, Red Bull etc for using Renault engine,gearbox and suspension?
Besides Alonso claimed their car was the fastest if it wasn't for the Honda engine. So surely they are gonna beat red bull this year..
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- HamiltonMP427
It's designed by Haas and then built by Dallara, there is wind tunnel use at Ferrari, but Haas has their own CFD and Windtunnel as well. No one is blaming (shouldn't be if they know F1) the use of gearbox, engine and rear suspension because those are set things that are paired with the PU for proper running. McLaren is probably one of the worst examples to use, cause they're known for doing the extra stuff themselves, same with Williams.
- 1,806
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- HI-tauer
Not easy to add nor readjust. 2017 test halos were just mockups build on top of the body. Now for 2018 they had to plan the entire frame below the bodywork to integrate halo and make it withstand something like 20000kg of force..
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- HamiltonMP427
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- TenEightyOne
- TenEightyOne
No, the monocoque was a 2017 monocoque. Halo goes right through the monocoque design in 2018.
Surely you're just being sniffy now? The majority of people think of kilos as weight rather than mass and are likely to express ideas of force in a similar way. Perhaps it's different in the US but in Europe when you use a Kg as a weight you're implying gravitational force on a mass... either way I'm sure you were able to extrapolate his idea from what he said.
- 22,551
- Arizona
- HamiltonMP427
I know it does, some teams actually tried to mock this up because of the fact that it was to be implemented, by Singapore that was the case.
Okay and that's incorrect, sorry something that was drilled into my head is an inherent thing to inform others isn't the case. Also it's not different in the U.S. we learn SI just the same, we just happen to learn imperial as well to a similar magnitude of depth. Sort of, call me "sniffy" if you want, but that isn't the case.
Point still stands it's not that hard to evolve a previous design with the Halo in mind, what's hard is when teams were completely redesigning the cars and then got the order that they also had to put the halo on. Haas once again started 18 development much earlier than others because of their brake by wire issue. Why people are arguing that some how this isn't a copy job, even when Haas has said it is, which is perfectly fine, is strange. Now if the claim is that Haas were given the floor plans with no work of their own I could understand people's issues, which seems to be what teams want the FIA to check. But until that time, I see nothing wrong with what Haas did so if people plan to make a claim that the "2017 car didn't have a halo so how could it be copied for 2018", how do any cars in F1 carry over when actual massive rule changes happen?
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