95 Integra Type R suspension? MASSIVE understreer problem

[Sean_BBB]

I'm new here, and this is my first post. A quick introduction, I got half half way through GT4, and my game got corrupted, after my real race car ('97 Neon ACR set up for SCCA Solo II competition in the Street Touring class) spun a rod bearing, I'm starting from scratch again. I don't use any cheats or scandalis ways to get extra credits, so all my race cars are on a budget (much like my real life situation), I try to build an underdog car for as little money as possible to win each event hall, as this is most fun approach of the game for me. Most setups I see here have cars maxed out in horsepower EVERYTIME. I just don't see the point of this, and most of these setups don't help me a whole lot, as they require much different LSD settings for the power I'm using.

Anyway, I'm about 13% done, and proceeded onto the "Type R Metting" event hall, putting Integra Type R's, Civic Type R's, RSX-S's and of course, the overdog of the class, the NSX Type R.

I went with a used Type R, changed the oil did a stage 1 weight redux, racing chip, 'semi-racing muffler/air intake (racing muffler is a waste for people on a budget) semi-racing suspension, semi-racing flywheel, twin plate clutch, and super close transmission. I also added a spoiler kit just for ****s and giggles and the fun of some extra parts to tune.

Now to justify my purchase, I chose the superclose transmission, since it's half the cost of the full customized one, and some of the tracks in this event hall are rather tight courses that I thought would benifit form this purchase, other events I figured I could just use the stock tranny. I didn't add a whole lot of power, as I figured the car would have plenty of corner exit wheel spin as it is. I didn't add a limited slip, because I know that Integra Type R's come with them from the factory. I also chose the semi-racing racing suspension, as the full race setup is too expensive, and the sports suspension doesn't seem to have virtually any effect. (someone correct me if I'm wrong please).

I headed out to the driving park with the super-close trans installed for the first event, I turned all driving aids off, set spring rates to nearly full stiff in the rear, and just a tick stiffer in the front. Turned the shocks up to about 8 in the front, 9 in the rear. Lowered the ride height, and added about three degrees of negative camber up front. I made sure I had 0 downforce in the rear, with a tick of down force up front. I figured this would tune out some understeer, and hopefully help the rear rotate a bit.

Wrong.

The car understeers like crazy. I don't understand how the car could push so much like this. 90% of the problem is throttle-on push, which is somewhat expected in a front wheel drive car, but this is ridiculous. Feathering the throttle only helps marginally, even coasting around the entire corner still seems like the car doens't corner correctly.

I tried setting suspension settings to extremes for oversteer, such as softest shocks/springs up front, stiffest shocks/springs in the rear, lowest ride height possible in the rear, no camber in the rear, about 4.0 degrees up front, and even turned on the TCS a bit, and even the ASM for understeer to 1, no dice, same result. Buying a 1.5 Way LSD didn't help the case either.

I have enough ability to drive fast enough to beat the other higher powered Civics and Integras, but the NSX's just kill me on every portion of the course. I don't want to break down and buy big power adders to blast by cars on the straights to win the race, and I don't want to give up on the car to buy an NSX. I want to win this event, in this car, with around the HP that I have (230ish?).

What needs to be done? The idea's I have are, custom LSD (but I'll need help with setting if I go this route, as I have no idea how these settings work) full race suspension to add some toe out in the rear, big sway bars in the rear, and even bigger springs in the rear, or perhaps something as easy as weight ballast in the correct location, which is something I will need help with as well.

I've considered running soft tires up front, and hard tires up front, but the high power that car makes, I don't think the tires will last for the long races in this event hall.

Please help me out.

 

[ekmatt9]

Put your Driving Aids like this:

ASM Oversteer: 0
ASM Understeer: 0
TCS Control: 3 or 4...That should cut it down...PM me with your settings I'll test it out

 

[amp88]

Try stiffest suspension at front and softest at rear.

 

[ConceptS14]

reverse your F/R spring rates.
the rear height of the car should be slightly higher than the front.
your tuning logic seems backwards.

 

[amp88]

Just bought this car and equipped it with the same parts as you did. I left all the settings as they came, with the exception of the downforce, which I set to 10 front and 0 rear.

I took it out to Motorland and it handles OK to me. It's a little understeery, but not more than I'd expect from a front wheel drive 200+ bhp car. Video of a (scruffy, slow) lap

edit: Just won the race (at Motorland reverse) reasonably easily. The race lineup is as important (if not more important) as car selection and driving skill.

The first time I entered the race, there were 2 NSXs in the pack. The first was in 2nd on the grid and the second was in 5th place on the grid. I passed the one in fifth with ease, but by the time I'd got through the rest of the pack, the NSX which started in 2nd place had a big (~3.5 second) lead. The lead NSX then pulled away from me at about 1-1.5 seconds per lap.

The next time I entered the race, there was only 1 NSX in the pack, back in 5th place. I passed it easily into the first corner and by the time he had worked his way through the pack, I had a really big (~5 second) lead. He never caught me after that.

Try re-entering the race until you get a favourable starting grid

 

[Sean_BBB]

I don't beleive my tuning logic to be backwards, as I race FWD cars with adjustable suspension myself. We set cars up to be stiff in the rear to get them to rotate, same goes for shocks.

I started the game up and found that my car was back to stock.

I bought the semi-racing suspension and started from there, and that's it.
I did some testing in practice mode, tested each end of the car with adjusting just one part each time.

I ended up.

Spring rate: 4.5 - 4.5 (full stiff rear, full soft front)
Shocks: 10/10
Ride height 105 front, 115 rear (there may be some improvement to be had here)
Camber 3.2 F .5 R

I have no ASM, and TCS at 1

I added Semi-racing muffler, stage 1 weight redux, twin plate clutch, semi-racing flywheel, racing chip, race brakes (no controller).

I did the first race at Tsbuka (sp? the long four lap track). There happened to be no NSX's in this race, so I won by a good margin, although the car needs to be driven very carefully, and patience is key. Get on the throttle too soon, and you're in the sand. The other Civics Accords and Integras are much faster on the straight, but it's obvious my car can turn in alot better. Late apexing is key.

I tried Motegei, but the track is too fast to catch the NSX's. I added a shot of No2, and kept the settings stock. I still couldn't catch the NSX that started on the pole, even by driving suberb. I did manage to beat an NSX on the driving park 10 lap race, but I was using the spray. I battled back and forth with an NSX on A. Ring, but I blew it in the last corner. This car can't beat the NSX's without the No2 I'm convinced, and even in some cases it's not enough. It's an average of a 144 pt. race, and a great challenge. Your front tires will be nearly burned to hell by the end, and you will lose grip on the last lap, this leads me to beleive that a 2-3 setting on TCS may help like reccomended. Try my mods and suspension and tell me what you think, then list your suspension setup and I'll compare data. 👍

 

[niky]

Suspension tuning actually is backwards in the game for FF cars. Some people have reported getting better turn in with really soft rear settings. I can't confirm this, as I tend to leave spring rates at the same F-R ratio as stock (merely stiffer).

I'd have gone full race suspension. Sports is good for a few seconds a lap, but you'll need all the help you can get. Try adding some front toe-out and adjust your camber to around 3 F, 0-1 R.

 

[dudejo]

stiff front and soft rear works for springs and stabilizers.

for shocks, i found that a stiff bound and soft rebound works well compared to the traditional soft bound and stiff rebound.

i also have atip concerning driving techniques for FWD. unlike RWD cars, late braking works in FWD's favor.

ever seen a Taurus SHO oversteer?

(edit) oh, and don't try accelerating and turning at the same time. FWD hates that so do it as little as possible.

 

[Ske]

I don't beleive my tuning logic to be backwards, as I race FWD cars with adjustable suspension myself. We set cars up to be stiff in the rear to get them to rotate, same goes for shocks.

That's where you need to think differently. GT4 is not RL, and suspension tuning is backwards in our world, and not only for FFs... It has something to do with lateral vs longitudal grip curves, but I'm no ME so I shan't elaborate

Try 8F 4.5R springs, 7/8F 3/4R dampers and 4F 1R stabilizers and see what it's like. The front should be more planted and the rear should be looser and willing.

PS: In GT4 you CAN power oversteer some FF cars... don't ask why

 

[Greycap]

I'd say 11F 10R springs, 5/5F 10/10R dampers and 4F 7R stabilizers, works fine for almost every car in that class for me. It depends on driving style of course.

 

[Sean_BBB]

The goal of this car was to be able to beat the NSX type R's with only about 220 HP, the project was a faliure. I was able to win the event hall with the car, but needed a tank of N2O to do so. Motegi was the hardest track by far. On the last lap the NSX gets insanely fast, much faster than the three laps before, it's insane.

I went back and tried the different spring settings. It seems that you guys were indeed correct. I went full soft in the rear, and full stiff in the front, and while the car was a bit loose mid corner, it would never come around on me completely. The turn-in feel seemed alot sloppier though. I'm sure there was some time to be gained with a setup between the two extremes, but with the races already complete, I don't have a desire to fine tune this car any longer. I didn't really enjoy this car, something about the massive throttle on understeer just rubbed me the wrong way, although there are a ton worse cars to have. I may try an SRT-4 with similar power and see how it compares later down the line. It seems I have alot to try with suspension setups on this game, now knowing that what I was doing was backwards.

Is there a thread you guys can link me to that may help me out as far as shock settings, and ride height and such? As I don't think I can even notice a difference with sport and semi-racing suspension setups with just shock settings alone. What's wrong with that?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Ske]

Is there a thread you guys can link me to that may help me out as far as shock settings, and ride height and such? As I don't think I can even notice a difference with sport and semi-racing suspension setups with just shock settings alone. What's wrong with that?

I can't really say I agree with the settings "rules" in the sticky threads.. so my best advice would have to be try, try, try.. and keep in mind that GT4 seems to think that stiff=grippy.. maybe GT4 just messes up the load from weight transfer.. I'm not entirely sure. What is sure, is that there are as many settings philosophies as there are posters..

Anyway, you already know my stance on springs/shocks (though I did give you a pretty extreme example).
I'd say keep the ride height fairly high, not less than 10mm from the lowest setting in any case.
Shock settings don't seem to be very noticeable at all, but they do offer some fine-tuning (or is it placebo.... who knows) to match your springs. AFAIK the shock settings are relative values to the springs, so 8 shocks on 4kg springs will be a lot softer than on 12kg spings, if you know what I'm saying. I can't really prove it though.. it just seems to be a theory that's been accepted by most around here.

 

[2of9]

its not just the springs, its also the weight transition. why dont you put more weight to the back in Settings. OR, you might be going too fast in the turn and brake and understeer? Me personally, i like driving alot of different FF cars, just because the way you can tune them can almost be pretty cool for a FF car.

 

[ekmatt9]

...I tried out your settings...And they are completely backwards. No wonder you got massive understeer. Try 9.8 for front springs, 8.4 for back, for your shocks do all 7...stabilizers = 5 both. Toe, do +1 or +2 or 0 if you want. And for your LSD, try 25-55-10...Mine worked like that...O0o0o and Camber angle either 2.0 or 2.5 in front and 0.5 in back.

 

[Sean_BBB]

...I tried out your settings...And they are completely backwards. No wonder you got massive understeer. Try 9.8 for front springs, 8.4 for back, for your shocks do all 7...stabilizers = 5 both. Toe, do +1 or +2 or 0 if you want. And for your LSD, try 25-55-10...Mine worked like that...O0o0o and Camber angle either 2.0 or 2.5 in front and 0.5 in back.

The goal was to get the car to handle with the SEMI-Racing suspension. Adding Toe adjustments should effect the car dramically, and Stab. bars should have some good effect as well. I also don't have the option of adjusting the LSD.

Let me know if you get a great set-up with just TCS settings, and semi-racing suspension adustments and I'll try it for sure.

I'm curious about your toe settings, +1-2 = positive toe, which = TOE IN. Toe in in the rear? That can't be right. I don't even see how toe-in in the front makes any sense.....

Why is this game so ass-backwards?

 

[dudejo]

i have some settings on gtvault.com

they may seem unorthodox but they work.

i aimed for a balance of handling and stability.

and a general tip for FWDs is to brake as late as you can.

like i said earlier, i made a Taurus SHO oversteer with this method.

 

[ekmatt9]

...Well, usually, it's all in the driving aids. If you go off...You can get your car with less understeer. I usually keep my driving aids at 0-0-3...Therefore no wheel spin outs, mild understeer, and all JDM tuning

 

[dudejo]

i tried using TCS but i lost too much power for my liking.

i ended up using the limited-slip differential and managed it that way.

i put initial and accel equal and as high as i thought i needed and the decel to 5.

wheelspin was only an issue in hairpins and i had to control oversteer

 

[DuckRacer]

You might want to try this set-up out:

My Honda Integra Type R '95 Set-up.

Hope this helps,
Duck7892

 

[Greycap]

...and keep in mind that GT4 seems to think that stiff=grippy...

It's not that simple, in some cars (Corvette C2 Race Car for example) softening the front will decrease understeer quite much. Mostly it is so though.

 

[sukerkin]

Hi Sean, welcome to the wonderful world of trying to reach a compromise between real world tuning knowledge and how the game engine functions in GT4 .

Here's a rather long thread that deals with the issue of whether the tuning engine is truly backwards in the game or if it's down to drivers not correctly interpreting what's going on:

https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=57763&highlight=suspension+tuning+backwards

For myself, I've recently been doing a fair bit of experimenting on spring/damper tuning and am starting to lean towards the opinion that it may well be that the 'slider' values in the tuning interface don't work in a 'logical' way.

I've worked for years on the premise that higher numbers mean more resistance but what I've been seeing during detailed, analytical, tuning sessions is that the higher numbers mean a faster return to position i.e. less resistance.

Duke for one (another Neon racer by the way ) has held this position for some considerable period and I'm starting to think he (and others) has a tenable point.

I've been using an Aston Martin Vantage as my test-bed vehicle and High Speed Ring as the test track, as what I was initially looking into was stability in fast corners for heavy cars with no 'wing' and non-race tyres.

The results of testing appear to be that lower Rebound values give you the effects you'd expect from stiffer Rebound - such that I'm running Rebound at 2/4. On Bound, I'm not yet sure as I can't decide whether the handling changes I'm getting are from the Bound being too stiff and thus losing grip or too soft and losing responsiveness. All I can say is that in the Aston, Bound 6/6 is by far the best setting (for me), with 5/5 and 7/7 both producing poorer results. This is subject to review and change of course when I can get back to the PS2 .

 

[Sean_BBB]

Thank you very much sukerkin, and everyone else as well! Very informative information.

 

[ekmatt9]

...Hey SeanBBB...Is your Integra TypeR the usdm version with the circle head lights or the jdm one with the other head lights...I'll try to get some good settings for ya

 

[Sean_BBB]

...Hey SeanBBB...Is your Integra TypeR the usdm version with the circle head lights or the jdm one with the other head lights...I'll try to get some good settings for ya

I know it's a '95, but I'll have to fire up the later to let you know if it's JDM or doemestic. I'd appreciate some good settings, (semi-race suspension only though, and no custom LSD) it would help my tuning sense out quite a bit.

 

[Sean_BBB]

The Integra does NOT have the circular headlights. So it must be JDM.