A lesson I learned in awd tuning...what do you think?(long post)

[VQuick]

First off, a bit(okay, okay, a lot) of background...feel free to skip it.
I've been engaged in duels with a friend on the Nurburgring. We use moderately tuned cars(under 500hp...until now ) and S3 tires.

My friend is a fast, instinctive driver. I'm pretty conservative, and usually had the edge just because I was able to pick good cars and set them up better than he could. After driving one of my cars for the first time, he said 'This isn't fair! Your cars actually turn!'lol Now if a car doesn't behave the way he wants it to, he just hands the controller to me and makes me fix it for him.

An example of my wins are my wingless, 450hp, Stage 1 Lightweight R34 GT-R beating my friend's winged, 430hp Stage 2 Lightweight JZA80 Supra. I also trumped his winged, 321hp, Stage 2 Lightweight S14 240SX with a 300hp, Stage 3 Lightweight Amuse S2000 R1.

Recently though, I've run into a snag. My friend copied a setup from a regular STi I had and applied it to a Spec C he bought. With 460hp and a full weight reduction, it murdered my R34 GT-R. To rub it in, he saved a 'sloppy' 7'09" lap on my memory card.

I tried several other cars(mostly FRs), but I could never keep up with that ghost! It was so frustrating to see that I was driving much cleaner laps and still couldn't match his lap time. Even if I did, it turned out that the different physics of 2P mode worked against me when I would race my friend again. Not only that, but my friend usually ended up driving better than his saved ghost lap.

I did build a fully tuned(supercharged) 350Z with bad gearing(much faster now with shorter, optimized gears), and won on the long straights, but I wanted more. The Opera S2000 in full tune got him too, but he whined about it being a 'race car.'

Now for the important part that *might* be worth reading...

I decided to play my friend's game and go awd. For good measure, I wanted to use more power as well. I started out with the Mine's Evo VI and got a Stage 4 turbo for a full 600hp. First off, it understeered quite a bit(roll cage installed). I couldn't buy an AYC controller or the VCD to change power distribution. Adjusting the spring rates, dampers and downforce helped, but there was another trick I discovered. I ended up buying adjustable LSDs and tried tuning them to get rid of some of the understeer. I was surprised to see that it worked! Unfortunately, the car only had 5 gear ratios, not nearly enough to keep up with the Spec C(set for 5 short gears, long 6th gear). That meant looking for another car.

I also noticed how at 10% front distribution, powerful awd cars(like the 460hp Spec C) will produce wheelspin on S3 tires in 2P mode. I began to think about how increasing front distribution might help reduce wheelspin. However, sending more power up front can cause understeer. How could I avoid that? Aha! By using the differentials like I did with the Mine's car! 💡

Anyway, now I can use a 660hp+ R34 GT-R on S3 tires. I set VCD to 30%, keep spring rates relatively high(~15kg/13kg, f/r), and set the LSDs to be relatively weak up front(5/20/5) and a bit stronger in the rear(20/60/5). The extra power means that the heavier car can still be competitive, and use a taller gear for the straights as well, making for a higher top speed(hits almost 200mph, compared to the Spec C's 178mph or so).

I know it isn't the best way to win, but it'll be fun baffling my friend. Tuning isn't his strong suit, so this will really frustrate him. Don't worry, I try teach him stuff about tuning. It's his fault that he won't apply it. *shrug*

Anyway, what do you guys think? Does this method of LSD tuning seem to have any merit when under a constraint like that of Sport tires?

 

[dudejo]

something i beleive most people agree with is that installing a LSD or VCD of any kind on a Skyline tends to ruin the handling.

the AWD system skylines use is a passive system that only activates as necessary. so far it seems to work because no one has really managed to make anything better with the custom LSD or VCD.

if you'd rather have the AYC for your Lancer, look for GSR brand Lancers model IV and above.

 

[RXGem]

something i beleive most people agree with is that installing a LSD or VCD of any kind on a Skyline tends to ruin the handling.

Generally I'd agree with you here, but, in this case I don't.

My friend and I are also currently in a, what we call, "Battle of the Godz". He is using a Mines GTR and I'm using a Nismo R-Tune.We had some epic battles with these cars in GT3! We both help each other tune the cars and once we've come up with a good base setup we go our own ways.

Anyways, to the point of the post, the Mines just does not handle like any other R34 when on the standard LSD as it gets quite alot of understeer, alot more than usual. But, when you use the FC LSD and set the front quite low and high at the rear there is a very noticable difference. The Nismo has the standard LSD and is quite fun to drive.

The Mines right now has similar LSD settings to VQuick but I'm not happy with it at all on a whole
(my friend has done most of the tuning for it )

Maybe I'll post settings for both cars if I'm ever really satisfied with their setups!


@VQuick - You and I are in similar situations as my friend and I also don't play GT Mode much. Our goal is to match and tune as many cars as possible to do battle at Grand Valley Speedway on Sport Hard tyres and set times between 1:56-1:58 in GT Mode. Weight is usually the minimum, though, ballast is added to those cars that are too quick and can not reduce power, in order to help them fit the Formula. The GT(40) currently has 558HP and almost 1600kg yet was capable of a 1:57 in 2P mode!

I thought since you and your mate like to battle so much the "Battle of the Godz" would be a nice line up to add to your collection. Your friend should probably take the Nismo as it is way easier to tune than the Mines. My friend wanted the Mines as he thought it was the "Ultimate GT-R" a la Best Motoring. Boy, was he wrong!.. hahaha

At least we're working together to get these beasts just the way we want them..



Hopefully I can get some miles on these two beasts on the weekend so we can start the...





"Battle of the Godz"
Has Mines really built the "Ultimate GT-R" or can Nismo regain what is rightfully theirs?


Mines R34 GT-R N1
Parts Banned - AIDS, NOS, WING
Rollcage - Installed (will test without to see if it helps reduce understeer)
Power - 630 HP (oil change)
Weight - 1299kg
Power:Weight - 2.06
S1 Tyres
Fastest Lap@GVS - 1:56.7 (should be good for low 56's or less)


Nismo R34 GT-R R-Tune
Parts Banned - AIDS, NOS, WING
Rollcage - Unknown
Power - 622 HP (oil change)
Weight - 1294kg
Power:Weight - 2.08 HP
S1 Tyres
Fastest Lap@GVS - No Time Set

 

[sucahyo]

You can try what I use to drift Falken GT-R (N1 tire)
Camber = 0.0/7.0

yes, no camber at front, huge camber at the rear . No more understeer .

 

[VQuick]

something i beleive most people agree with is that installing a LSD or VCD of any kind on a Skyline tends to ruin the handling.

the AWD system skylines use is a passive system that only activates as necessary. so far it seems to work because no one has really managed to make anything better with the custom LSD or VCD.

I can make my GT-Rs handle pretty well using the VCD alone(10% front distribution to reduce understeer). It tends to depend on your suspension settings too. The problem was that when I made them powerful enough to compete with the far-lighter Spec C, they got lots of rear wheelspin.

Shifting some power up front and using the LSDs to control it was my way of compensating.

if you'd rather have the AYC for your Lancer, look for GSR brand Lancers model IV and above.

Yeah, you can apply AYC to any GSR or MR Evo from IV and up. Problem is, the Mine's Evo VI I was using cannot use AYC or VCD. That's how I came across the LSD tuning 'trick.' I ended up not using it anyway, because it only has a 5-speed tranny.

RXGem: I would recommend using the rollcage. Sure it might cause understeer, but use the suspension to tune it out. Your car should be stiffer and faster as a result.

sucahyo: That's an interesting idea for a drift. I don't need quite that much grip in the rear while cornering, though. As high as my spring rates are, the camber wouldn't be put to use anyway. My camber is more like 1.0/0.5 f/r.

 

[viperpilot]

you're right about the fact that LSD and VCD ruin the handling of the Skylines, because the ATTESA-ETS, a system which distributes the Torque to the front, when the rear is out of grip. if you fit a LSD, it will deactivate the function of the ATTESA-ETS.

viper

 

[-Cheezman-]

My set ups consist of S3 Sports Tires, -1 toe in rear, 0 front, no aids, no nitrous, stage 3 light weight reduction, racing clutch and flywheel, 1.5 way differential, and stiffer front suspension than rear, with lowest ride height settings (using semi-racing suspension), with 3.0 camber front, and 1.5-2 in the rear. Handles great on most AWDs, like the Evo VIII/MR and STi(s). Hell, I have even gotten to work with success on some Integra DC2s, and those cars are hard to keep under control because of their front wheel drive!

Do any engine work you would like, just keep it under 450hp. I also use the stock, or "close" transmission, but feel free to use an adjustable racing transmission.

 

[VQuick]

I tried seeing what the limits of my LSD trick might be. I tuned a full lightweight R34 Nur up to 904hp and...wow. Just wow. The car was amazing.

Using the adjustable LSDs(5,20,5/20,60,20 F/R) and 35% front distribution, the power was kept in check. The springs were extra stiff(16/14.5 F/R), and camber was very low(0.5/0.0 F/R) since there would be very little body roll.

The car flew. Like Keiichi Tsuchiya said about the Mine's GT-R, it seemed like the front wheels were in the air. The braking needs a little work, because the tail comes out, although I have a front bias(5/4 F/R) dialed in. I made two big errors on my first lap, and the gearing wasn't quite right(6th too short). Still, I ran a 6'53".

I stretched 6th gear a bit and did something weird...I let my B-Spec driver try it out, since I really just wanted to see how the top speed was. My hands were tired, too.hehe

Anyway, B-Spec Betty had a couple off track excursions too. She topped out at 205mph and still ran a 7'03". I just had to save that ghost, since I could rub it in my friend's face and say that even Betty is faster than him.lol

 

[Leonidae]

hehe, good one! I'm going to give a run to R-Tune too, or then, I'll just keep fiddling around with the pace car.. 900bhp and can't put a wing is a good combination when you have to practice tyre management..

 

[viperpilot]

good luck Leo!! hope you'll achieve something.....

viper

 

[VQuick]

I almost forgot to mention...back on the 1st, I also turned my attention to a Dodge Ram I had messed with at one point. I had no idea that truck could be so fast! I ran a 7'34" at the 'Ring on my first try. I couldn't stop from laughing at the replay. On this harsh, rigorous course that unsettles even some of the finest sports cars, a pickup truck was hustling through the turns! Even the Karussel was no problem for this 19xxkg(after stage 3 weight reduction) behemoth.

I plan on trying the same type of setup with the Infiniti FX45 Concept, Range Rover Range Stormer Concept, and the Audi Pike's Peak Concept. Perhaps I'll even try the wild Peugeot 205 Evo II rally car(Group B rally cars were notorious for understeer). I'll post results when I get a chance.

Also on the 1st I showed my friend the replay of the Ram. He was just floored, seeing the Ram storm through the Nordshleife without a hint of drama. He saw my B-Spec driver in the R34, and figured it must have been me driving. I pretended to be offended that he thought I drove as badly as Betty. Were the cars running race tires, he asked. Nope. I told him they still had S3s, and he decided to try out the R34 for himself. He couldn't believe how well it drove. He loved being able to still get some power oversteer as well(900hp+ will do that, I guess). The braking confused him a little, but otherwise he loved the car.

My friend borrowed my PS2 because he wants to try the same thing on his Spec C. He might not get it quite right, but I'm sure that later he'll have me fine-tune it to make it just right for him.lol Then I'll have to make another tuning breakthrough to regain my competitive edge.

 

[Leonidae]

Group B cars..? and understeer? you obviously haven't tried to drive them on tarmac then. RS200 rally car is a precision weapon for tarmac rally, and 205 T16 evoII is the most fun on gravel. if you suffer from understeer in that thing, the problem is in your right foot, you don't push the throttle enough. these cars are controlled with advanced throttle and weight shifting methods, not with steering wheel!

 

[VQuick]

Group B cars..? and understeer?...if you suffer from understeer in that thing, the problem is in your right foot, you don't push the throttle enough. these cars are controlled with advanced throttle and weight shifting methods, not with steering wheel!

That's exactly what I'm referring to! Group B drivers like Audi's Stig 'The Real Stig' Bloomqvist had to left foot brake and use lots of throttle, not just to eliminate lag, but to also get rid of understeer. The 4wd Group B cars mostly used a 50/50 torque split with mechanical diffs, and didn't have the fancy pants active diffs that modern WRC cars use. Those drivers were real men. 👍

 

[viperpilot]

jip, our world misses a lot of THIS guys!! why aren't there more of them?

viper

 

[Leonidae]

because it was 20 years ago.. they're around 50 or 60 by now. there weren't these young superstars back then.

 

[Niels]

I almost forgot to mention...back on the 1st, I also turned my attention to a Dodge Ram I had messed with at one point. I had no idea that truck could be so fast! I ran a 7'34" at the 'Ring on my first try. I couldn't stop from laughing at the replay. On this harsh, rigorous course that unsettles even some of the finest sports cars, a pickup truck was hustling through the turns! Even the Karussel was no problem for this 19xxkg(after stage 3 weight reduction) behemoth.

I plan on trying the same type of setup with the Infiniti FX45 Concept, Range Rover Range Stormer Concept, and the Audi Pike's Peak Concept. Perhaps I'll even try the wild Peugeot 205 Evo II rally car(Group B rally cars were notorious for understeer). I'll post results when I get a chance.

Also on the 1st I showed my friend the replay of the Ram. He was just floored, seeing the Ram storm through the Nordshleife without a hint of drama. He saw my B-Spec driver in the R34, and figured it must have been me driving. I pretended to be offended that he thought I drove as badly as Betty. Were the cars running race tires, he asked. Nope. I told him they still had S3s, and he decided to try out the R34 for himself. He couldn't believe how well it drove. He loved being able to still get some power oversteer as well(900hp+ will do that, I guess). The braking confused him a little, but otherwise he loved the car.

My friend borrowed my PS2 because he wants to try the same thing on his Spec C. He might not get it quite right, but I'm sure that later he'll have me fine-tune it to make it just right for him.lol Then I'll have to make another tuning breakthrough to regain my competitive edge.

Try harder, I managed a 6'33 with a full tuned FPV:tup: A skyline should be able to pull off a better time!

 

[VQuick]

Try harder, I managed a 6'33 with a full tuned FPV:tup: A skyline should be able to pull off a better time!

What tires did you have? I've only driven my R34 once(haven't gotten to practice with the new setup yet), and the car was on S3 tires. I drove one lap, got a 6'33", and haven't played since.

Since the 6'53" lap isn't mentioned in the part of my post you quoted, maybe you're referring to the 7'34". If you are, that's for a Dodge Ram!lol No amount of trying on my part is going to get the lap time down by a minute.hehe

 

[Tougehooker]

i think the tuning of suspension parts in GT4 is unrealistic. What would give you under/oversteer in real life, doesn't apply in GT4, it seems like they just put in the suspension tuning for fun/style with no real function in the game.

but anyways battle of the gods sounds fun.

 

[bucket of water]

alot of the understeer can be tuned out by the front LSD. usally simliar setting to a frontwheel drive car will work but look at GT AWD "lm cars" for ideas.

 

[sucahyo]

ignore

 

[sucahyo]

sucahyo: That's an interesting idea for a drift. I don't need quite that much grip in the rear while cornering, though. As high as my spring rates are, the camber wouldn't be put to use anyway. My camber is more like 1.0/0.5 f/r.

No, you wrong, I do not want to increase grip, I want to REDUCE the grip. At 16/12 spring, even camber 1.0 will make the front tire having less grip on Falken GT-R (4WD). Using 0.0/7.0 camber for Falken GT-R make the car drive more neutral (at least for me and B-Spec).The car become more oversteer at braking and acceleration. I still can't do power over drift but at least it goes sideways more neutral on N1 tire.
For me, camber is the best way to reduce the tire grip. I prefer it more than tire stagger, ballast, downforce or other suspension tuning.

alot of the understeer can be tuned out by the front LSD. usally simliar setting to a frontwheel drive car will work but look at GT AWD "lm cars" for ideas.

I don't think GT4 understeer can be reduced much with LSD tuning. I think using low front and high rear ride height (like Duck usually do) is better, so does using highly unequal spring rate (depend on which part is heavier) or really huge rear camber .

 

[Leonidae]

LSD helps with AWD quite much, if you know how to set it up correctly. check out Scaffs tuning guides. I adjusted most of my cars by those instructions and now they all oversteer mildly. true, suspension tuning helps more, but LSD helps to refine and polish those effects.

 

[VQuick]

No, you wrong, I do not want to increase grip, I want to REDUCE the grip. At 16/12 spring, even camber 1.0 will make the front tire having less grip on Falken GT-R (4WD).

I think the springs are a key factor here. I didn't know you ran such high rates. There'd be very little body roll with what you use, so the car wouldn't lean onto the tires as much to have added grip while cornering. by using so much camber, there is less of a contact patch on the road. I gotcha now. 👍

I don't think GT4 understeer can be reduced much with LSD tuning. I think using low front and high rear ride height (like Duck usually do) is better, so does using highly unequal spring rate (depend on which part is heavier) or really huge rear camber .

Leonidae is right. Suspension tuning helps tune out understeer, but in some cases you need even more work. The LSDs help quite a bit here.

In the Mine's Evo VI I had, I had pulled out all the understeer-killing tricks I knew. The springs were at maximum stiffness, there was very little camber, and the front downforce was at full strength. Still the car understeered like crazy, because I couldn't adjust the torque split(no VCD available), and AYC was not available(even on the lowest setting of 30, it could have helped).

The LSDs worked wonders, but it still wasn't quite enough because of the non-adjustable torque split. Moving the torque split to 30-35% up front would have made the car golden.

 

[sucahyo]

I think the springs are a key factor here. I didn't know you ran such high rates.

Maybe not. Before I use 16/12 to reduce snap, I use 4/4 spring rate. Even on this minimum value, using 1.0 front camber still feel have less grip than 0.0 front camber.

Leonidae is right. Suspension tuning helps tune out understeer, but in some cases you need even more work. The LSDs help quite a bit here.

Yes, but I am thinking the other way around. LSD is not helping but making it worse. I usually try to use LSD as small as possible. And since I believe stock car have higher LSD than FC LSD default, I always equip LSD with minimum value as initial setting.
When the car can't use FC LSD (like Falken GT-R), we can always use extreme tuning to make it turn .

My understeer killing trick is (from most preferable to least):
huge camber differences
huge stabilizer / damper differences
huge spring rate differences
huge ride height differences
LSD
tire stagger
balast
toe
downforce

 

[T4 GTR]

You can try what I use to drift Falken GT-R (N1 tire)
Camber = 0.0/7.0

yes, no camber at front, huge camber at the rear . No more understeer .

Haa, ha ,ha! Thats a classic. Thats so much fun! N1 Tires = FUN!

I advise others to try it.👍👍👍👍👍

Cheers

T4 GTR