An Idea for a more detailed SR program

[Bruunz]

Let me start off by saying personally i like the system and my experiences have been quite good. I have had some great tight and clean racing lately (FYI - im B/S). There are a lot of S drivers out there that probably shouldn't be but all in all its been good.

However we can't ignore the gripe people are having with the system or the fact as a victim your feel unjustly punished for someone else's actions. Reading and reviewing replay's i think a lot of the issues comes down to a few key points.

1) Added Pressure - Especially in FIA and manufacturer races. We only have 1 attempt. We blow it and that's it.
2) The Time Attack Mentality - Racing at 100% with no room for error.
3) Experience of the track / over taking - Not every corner is an corner that we can use for over taking.
4) Cost of your action - What are the consequences of our actions

Points 1, 2 and 3 are really associated to us as the drivers. However let's take a closer look at point 4.

What are the pros and cons that a dive bomber would have?

Pro:
Gain a position
Failure means they are still on the track
The other person will be worse off if they fail

Con:
Small hit in SR.
Not gaining the position
Possible time penalty

With the above example, what incentive does the dive bomber have to not do it? Not much right? So here come my idea... damage.... but wait there is more to it.
At the moment if they enabled damage in Sports mode as a whole that wouldn't really impact much to the above list. After that race, they will be right as rain...
What if that wasn't the case? What if it cost MI to repair the damage?

Here is my idea:

MI earned in the race is affected by SR with a multiplier. Gain positive SR then that multiplier increases. Lose SR and have a reduced multiplier.
Then calculate the perceived damage and remove it from the total earned. Played like an arse? Then you just lost MI..
Then have races that require a certain amount of MI to enter. Not as a cost to enter but just a requirement.

Don't have any MI left? well then. Here is a chance to earn some... MX-5 on a oval as a feeder race...
Faster cars / technical tracks require higher entry balances but so are the costs to repair.

Imagine having no MI left because you played poorly and you dont have enough to buy the weekly wheels and paints.

How's that for a consequence?

Thoughts?

 

[NosOsH]

I just hope the damage you take to your front end is worse than the damage you take to your rear. Or at least more crippling.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

As long as the penalty system is broken this won't fix anything. Damage is only a tool for the aggressor, the one leaving the track is always worse off.

First GTS needs to educate, what is proper racing, when do you have the right to the apex, when do you need to leave room, when do you need to back off. Then it needs to apply those rules.

If the system can determine who is at fault it needs to force that player to give the position back. Give a 15s bad overtake penalty that can be reduced to 5s if you let the person you bumped while overtaking pass within 30s of the incident. The 5s stands for the remainder of the race, bumping and not overtaking should still be penalized.
If blame cannot be assigned clearly, both players get the regular SR Down.

There should not be resets in SR.S (apart for blatant corner cutting) and re-entering the driving line in front of traffic should get a heavy penalty.

To get to SR.S you need to prove you can drive safely in traffic. Therefore from half SR.A (70 points) you can only gain more SR points while driving clean sectors in close proximity of other cars. In SR.S that proximity requirement shrinks with every further point gained.

Mileage and money can easily be farmed, paying for damage won't be a deterrent and will only inconvenience players that don't play as often.

A permanent time penalty is a better deterrent and would be interesting to see in the result screen. I've had races on Bathurst yersterday where I was the only one without a red dot in the result screen. Things would look very different if you couldn't simply scrub penalties. Of course the yellow flag nonsense penalties need to go, plus the system needs to be fixed so it doesn't give you a penalty for secondary collisions, ie getting punted into another car that flies off track. That blame should end up at the one playing pool. Same goes for time penalties when someone performs a bad overtake and bounces off you into a wall. Bathurst is especially bad at that.

If the game can calculate paths for AI going through a corner together it can also do that for players. The player with a path that has no safe solution is at fault. Hopefully PD is collecting data from all races to use to determine what is safe and unsafe for every part of each track. Every day there are thousands of examples of good and bad overtakes. Use that data!

And be more transparent, show incident rate per corner, best places to overtake, most dangerous parts on the tracks. Perhaps add a new dynamic driving line aid to teach people how to drive in traffic. That line should adjust based on other cars, basically show the AI solution which it can also use to determine blame.

 

[Phoenixsui]

Yep the divebombers are the worst. Or maybe not the bombers but the once that brake late and then push you off track at the exit without penalty. It was not a divebomb but a hard foul at the exit.
The once that think every corner is an opportunity to overtake and afterwards blame you to not let them pass. For example in high speed chicanes kyoto ...
I think your idea is not bad but it will probably be hard or impossible to balance it.
The SR E-S is already something like what you want to do with the MI. You need SR S to play with SR S.
The problem is, it is to easy to get to SR S in 10 lap races. I found sprint races are horrible to gain SR but 10 lap races where you ofthen drive solo for long parts it is easy.
Maybe SR should only be gained and lost if opponents are in a certain range (+/-1 to 3 seconds?). Like this you wont be able to gain lots and lots of SR during Qualifing or at the end of the pack to farm it. You would be forced to show fair racing in a pack to gain it.

 

[Scaff]

Let me start off by saying personally i like the system and my experiences have been quite good. I have had some great tight and clean racing lately (FYI - im B/S). There are a lot of S drivers out there that probably shouldn't be but all in all its been good.

However we can't ignore the gripe people are having with the system or the fact as a victim your feel unjustly punished for someone else's actions. Reading and reviewing replay's i think a lot of the issues comes down to a few key points.

1) Added Pressure - Especially in FIA and manufacturer races. We only have 1 attempt. We blow it and that's it.
2) The Time Attack Mentality - Racing at 100% with no room for error.
3) Experience of the track / over taking - Not every corner is an corner that we can use for over taking.
4) Cost of your action - What are the consequences of our actions

Points 1, 2 and 3 are really associated to us as the drivers. However let's take a closer look at point 4.

What are the pros and cons that a dive bomber would have?

Pro:
Gain a position
Failure means they are still on the track
The other person will be worse off if they fail

Con:
Small hit in SR.
Not gaining the position
Possible time penalty

With the above example, what incentive does the dive bomber have to not do it? Not much right? So here come my idea... damage.... but wait there is more to it.
At the moment if they enabled damage in Sports mode as a whole that wouldn't really impact much to the above list. After that race, they will be right as rain...
What if that wasn't the case? What if it cost MI to repair the damage?

Here is my idea:

MI earned in the race is affected by SR with a multiplier. Gain positive SR then that multiplier increases. Lose SR and have a reduced multiplier.
Then calculate the perceived damage and remove it from the total earned. Played like an arse? Then you just lost MI..
Then have races that require a certain amount of MI to enter. Not as a cost to enter but just a requirement.

Don't have any MI left? well then. Here is a chance to earn some... MX-5 on a oval as a feeder race...
Faster cars / technical tracks require higher entry balances but so are the costs to repair.

Imagine having no MI left because you played poorly and you dont have enough to buy the weekly wheels and paints.

How's that for a consequence?

Thoughts?

While I agree that damage is needed, the penalty system needs to be fixed as well.

With the above is still easy enough to game and not suffer as the aggressor.

A simple draft bump or Pit manoeuvre would see the aggressor's car with minimal to no damage and the victim leaving the track as speed, potentially taking a few others with them. The victim still gets the penalty and now substantial damage costs, while the aggressor gets none and gains a place or two.

The exact same thing would be true of those who use you as a cornering aid on the indie of fast sweepers (such as at Kyoto).

SR is too hard to lose and too easy to gain, change that and make it a valuable currency that people are scared to lose, give drive through penalties for repeat offenders, remove the countdown for the slow down penalty (so you can't game it), give drive through for those who cut the track more than a set number of times and DQ anyone who doesn't serve a drive through before the last lap.

The above will not fix everything, but it would make a much bigger difference that just adding damage (which GT has never done well).

 

[JacksHerer]

Counter steering assist needs to be removed from sport/fia races. Having CSA on enables people not to worry about points 1-4

SR:S needs to be harder to achieve, you won't be able to stop people grinding at the front or back to up their SR.

SR:S needs to be harder to maintain. I've said it in another thread, but once you reach SR:S then the SR+ points should only happen per clean lap, not per clean sector.
Once you get to 95 SR points, then only get SR+ when you do a clean race.

If a car {X} makes contact with 2 or more cars during a race, then just that car {X} gets SR penalties at the end of the race and the 2 other cars are assumed clean, if they had no other contact.

That should make SR:S mostly a group of non contact drivers.

 

[Mr616]

SR:S definitely needs to be easier to lose. It should be the holy grail, and a near guarantee that everybody on the grid will be doing their utmost to race clean . You should be able to trust every driver on SR:S grid imo regardless of their DR.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

SR:S needs to be harder to maintain. I've said it in another thread, but once you reach SR:S then the SR+ points should only happen per clean lap, not per clean sector.

This is something that could be a positive addition across all SR rankings as a racer needs to learn the value of SR in keeping and maintaining such ranking regardless of ranking level.

Also again penalties should not be able to be scrubbed off in race but should be assessed post race so they have an effect on the finishing position and rewards earned in the race you were penalized.

The current practice of allowing penalties to be scrubbed off in race allows to many incidents that draw a penalty to go virtually unpunished on some circuits where the penalties can be scrubbed off with virtually no cutting of race pace just due to normal changes of speed within the circuit design.

Draw a penalty, pay the price post race.

 

[cleanLX]

Someone else already suggested something similar to this...
Was likely one of the 3 folks above me...
Sr.S - 99-95
SR.A - 94-85
SR.B - 84-75
SR.C- 74-60
SR.D - 59-35
SR.E - 34-0
Not set in stone, but some kind of graduated system that keeps the cleanest racing with the cleanest.
Agree that it is too easy to get Sr.S, and too hard to loose it, so, keeping S and A tight may help solve it.
Also agree that penalties should hold till the end of the race, no scrub off.
Not sure about Sr demotion/promotion being discussed above, I've far too many times received orange Sr for some other competitors actions. Hate to be "permanently" penalized for the games mistaken interpretation of something.

Yellow flags need to stay, but be "smarter"... car/s wrecking and headed off course, or entirely off course should not cause a penalty for cars passing... especially when they are already ghosted. But, if a car is slowing to avoid a wreck/others wrecking, and the yellow comes out, that car should not loose a spot/s for avoiding a wreck... So, yellow is ok, needs work... My opinion.
Penalty system does need work... a tap here and there is to be expected, but when it's hard enough to move you "well" off-line, or wreck you then penalties need applied.
I think the ramming car getting off scott free is being exploited, as, I have seen it work correctly when someone has been a jackolantern brake-checking and /or pulling a "block" when there is a great speed differential.
Somehow PD need to differentiate this system in it's working function (as described) vs how it is being exploited heading into a corner.
Same for cars being used as a "cornering aide".

I'm not sure damage is going to do anything but have even more detriment to those being rammed/punted/shoved off already.
Unfortunately, "people" ... they will find a way to exploit.
They need to improve the penalty system before they add more penalties to the innocent.

My "off the top of my head" .02

 

[NosOsH]

I feel that if the penalties cant be scrubbed and are added at the end no matter what it definately is more Fair, BUT may not discourage ramming and pushing off line enough because the aggressor wont have to pay for those until the end. So could keep going along for the rest of the race essentially unhindered and cause havoc then at the end of the race has 15 or 20 seconds added but has already quit and goes to find their next victims.

 

[demeaning pie]

There is a difference between aggressive driving and reckless driving. There is nothing wrong with being aggressive, it's a given in motor sports. The problem is the system penalizes both aggressive and reckless behavior equally. If I block pass someone into a turn and the person I am passing hits me, we both get whacked with an SR deduction. How am I at fault because the other person doesn't know how to handle a block pass?

The only way you are going to win without being aggressive is to set pole and lead every lap. If my race pace is within a tenth of the car I am following, I either have to wait for them to make a mistake or make an aggressive move on the brakes, otherwise we are just running parade laps. If the person who set pole is faster than me, I have to find a way to get in front of them and disrupt their rhythm in order to win. You can't do that without being aggressive.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

^ What do you consider the line between a block pass and cutting somebody off without a chance to slow down in time. If you are within the same pace as the person in front of you, you can easily use better corner exits and drafting to get alongside for the next corner, then leave room and the one with the best control of the car will come out ahead. No need to cut off, squeeze or block.

The system could be a lot smarter. It's not that hard to use projected driving lines to see who deviates the most and steers towards a collision. Yet first the penalties need to be permanent. Why do I bother not having a red dot at the end when 90% of the field finishes with red dots and no penalty left. Perhaps I should cut the corners too in the first few laps to get with the program.

 

[John Crellin]

Someone else already suggested something similar to this...
Was likely one of the 3 folks above me...
Sr.S - 99-95
SR.A - 94-85
SR.B - 84-75
SR.C- 74-60
SR.D - 59-35
SR.E - 34-0

First of all I would like to point out that changing how the SR ranks are tiered is pointless. If you are SR S (94/99) then you aren't matched with other SR S Players you will instead be placed within a range around that 94/99. So by changing SR S to 95-99 you are not effectively changing anything about who you are matched with (94/99 will still be matched within a range around 94). Its just that the S will carry a bit more prestige like a badge. There is entirely too much focus on what letter you are not what number you are and the algorithm only cares what number you are.

Now, to fix what number you are I would suggest a different approach. How about this:

1. Every green sector gives you 1pt SR, and every orange sector gives you -5% of your total SR score.

a. a player in the first sector of a race with 90/99 SR would gain +1pt for a green sector and -4.5pt for a bad one.
b. This would hold higher SR Ranks to a higher standard and lower to a lower standard.​

2. Removal of the yellow flag penalty (but keep the yellow flag)

3. A discriminatory penalty system that distinguishes between speeds of each car in an accident and track "zones" that the collision takes place

a. If you dive bomb me in a corner the system knows that you were going >20mph FASTER than me in a brake zone so it is your fault not mine
b. If you brake check me on a straight then the system knows that you were going >20mph SLOWER than me in an acceleration zone so it is your fault not mine
c. If side by side contact occurs resulting a yellow flag for one of the cars then its the unflagged cars fault
d. If side by side contact occurs resulting a yellow flag for both of the cars then it is both cars fault
​

4. Track limit penalties are only able to be scrubbed within one lap of the violation or else the remiander will be added to your final time.

a. If violation occurred in Section 2 then you have until Section 2 of the next lap to scrub it.
b. This includes wall contact penalties​

5. Collision penalties cannot be scrubbed

I think this would work better than our current no -fault system

*edited for format and grammar

 

[demeaning pie]

If you are within the same pace as the person in front of you, you can easily use better corner exits and drafting to get alongside for the next corner, then leave room and the one with the best control of the car will come out ahead. No need to cut off, squeeze or block.

In other words, a block pass...

 

[Sven Jurgens]

First of all I would like to point out that changing how the SR ranks are tiered is pointless. If you are SR S (94/99) then you aren't matched with other SR S Players you will instead be placed within a range around that 94/99. So by changing SR S to 95-99 you are not effectively changing anything about who you are matched with (94/99 will still be matched within a range around 94). Its just that the S will carry a bit more prestige like a badge. There is entirely too much focus on what letter you are not what number you are and the algorithm only cares what number you are.

Now, to fix what number you are I would suggest a different approach. How about this:

1. Every green sector gives you 1pt SR, and every orange sector gives you -5% of your total SR score.

a. a player in the first sector of a race with 90/99 SR would gain +1pt for a green sector and -4.5pt for a bad one.
b. This would hold higher SR Ranks to a higher standard and lower to a lower standard.​

2. Removal of the yellow flag penalty (but keep the yellow flag)

3. A discriminatory penalty system that distinguishes between speeds of each car in an accident and track "zones" that the collision takes place

a. If you dive bomb me in a corner the system knows that you were going >20mph FASTER than me in a brake zone so it is your fault not mine
b. If you brake check me on a straight then the system knows that you were going >20mph SLOWER than me in an acceleration zone so it is your fault not mine
c. If side by side contact occurs resulting a yellow flag for one of the cars then its the unflagged cars fault
d. If side by side contact occurs resulting a yellow flag for both of the cars then it is both cars fault​

I think this would work better than our current no -fault system

It actually already works a bit like that. If you get hit from behind while braking for a corner only the person behind you gets the penalty. It could use some fine tuning though. Small bumps that can still cause you to overshoot go unpunished. Also if you get punted off the track it should not give you a penalty for leaving the track. If the car in front isn't stalling it's always the car behind that's at fault.

It gets tricky when the car in front uses an abnormal line to block. In that case the game can take your driving line into account. the car that deviates the most from a smooth legal line, heading into contact is at fault. That should also solve cutting the corner and pushing out the car that's taking the corner correctly. No clue why it now gives me a penalty when someone cuts over the grass and hits right after the apex.

It's not fool proof though. I've seen plenty people trying to dive overtake in impossible places only to bounce off my car into a wall while I'm taking the corner correctly. Which currently gives you a heavy SR down and 5 or 10 sec penalty. It really needs to look at driving lines to fix that. If your driving line is going to send you into the wall anyway, clipping a car along the way should not penalize that car and transfer your wall hit penalty to them.

 

[John Crellin]

It actually already works a bit like that. If you get hit from behind while braking for a corner only the person behind you gets the penalty. It could use some fine tuning though. Small bumps that can still cause you to overshoot go unpunished. Also if you get punted off the track it should not give you a penalty for leaving the track. If the car in front isn't stalling it's always the car behind that's at fault.

I was trying to incorporate the best aspects of the current system. My system would distinguish though the speed at which the bumps occur and only punish if the bump is too hard. thiswould allow bump drafting and minor collisions (Im looking at you Tokyo and the Ovals) Also if the one getting bumped is wrecked then that would cause a yellow flag and penalize the player offending player.

It gets tricky when the car in front uses an abnormal line to block. In that case the game can take your driving line into account. the car that deviates the most from a smooth legal line, heading into contact is at fault. That should also solve cutting the corner and pushing out the car that's taking the corner correctly. No clue why it now gives me a penalty when someone cuts over the grass and hits right after the apex.

In this case unless a wreck occurs i wouldn't penalize the players. Bad blocking is annoying but unless major contact occurs then i wouldn't want a penalty to be placed. If it is a side by side situation, the side by side contact rules are in effect. But i agree a driving line data point would be helpful, but then how do you write the rules to accommodate contact in a slow in, fast out overtake?

. I've seen plenty people trying to dive overtake in impossible places only to bounce off my car into a wall while I'm taking the corner correctly. Which currently gives you a heavy SR down and 5 or 10 sec penalty. It really needs to look at driving lines to fix that. If your driving line is going to send you into the wall anyway, clipping a car along the way should not penalize that car and transfer your wall hit penalty to them.

most of the time though the speed into the corner determines how wide the driver will exit. I know what you mean though, in Tokyo a player who swipes at you might send themselves into the wall and you would get punished. So somehow steering angles and driving lines do need to be accounted for. However, i would argue that my system and the current one already incentivize against this behavior. If you get swiped and the person wrecks as a result, yes you would take a hit in SR like you currently do but they would potentially lose position and get a wall contact penalty anyways. I would also argue that the likelihood of the offender only wrecking themselves is less common than the offender wrecking you. (but i have no evidence to back that claim up)

First GTS needs to educate, what is proper racing, when do you have the right to the apex, when do you need to leave room, when do you need to back off. Then it needs to apply those rules.

BTW i think this is a really good idea

 

[Renrag39]

@cleanLX I suggested something like that but even more stringent.

I've also been wondering whether you should have a time out if you drop an SR level. You can't level up again for 'x' amount of time. Hours or days.

And like @John Crellin said, some sort of vector analysis system to determine liklihood of fault would be great, along with zoning for 'typical' braking and acceleration.
Of course, it won't be foolproof, no algorithm can be, not in real time, but it would be a lot better.

 

[lav01]

I said it in another thread and I support your ideas. Damage would be helpful and also would some type of monetary penalty, either to fix your car, restitution for who you hit (if blatant), or just a fine of some type. World of outlaws on the ps2 did something like this and even though frustrating at some times (everybody goes off or bumps something/someone here and there), but the way it is right now is an okay effort which does not work very well in my opinion. I am not alone in those thoughts. It is a great game, but more like a prologue than a full game due to its limited content. I for one hope there is more sooner than later.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

I was trying to incorporate the best aspects of the current system. My system would distinguish though the speed at which the bumps occur and only punish if the bump is too hard. thiswould allow bump drafting and minor collisions (Im looking at you Tokyo and the Ovals) Also if the one getting bumped is wrecked then that would cause a yellow flag and penalize the player offending player.

Oh but bump drafting is a great way to get down to SR.B where the match making is much better

The problem is that a little bump can be enough to send a player on the grass and spin out. Yet that should be caught by checking the result, yellow flag as you said. That should also solve the sly taps to push someone into a wall that now go unpunished. Perhaps it needs to keep a little history as well. One little tap is probably accidental, 3 in a row, deliberate squeezing off the road.

In this case unless a wreck occurs i wouldn't penalize the players. Bad blocking is annoying but unless major contact occurs then i wouldn't want a penalty to be placed. If it is a side by side situation, the side by side contact rules are in effect. But i agree a driving line data point would be helpful, but then how do you write the rules to accommodate contact in a slow in, fast out overtake?

Today on Dragontrail I had a few occasions where I go side by side through the corner before the bus stop chicance and the person on the outside deliberately steers all the way to the inside after the corner to cut me off, hitting me with their passenger door. I get an SR Down for that.

If both of the cars follow a good driving line yet they happen to intersect, then the attacker (the one behind before the corner) should get the penalty for incorrectly assessing the situation.

most of the time though the speed into the corner determines how wide the driver will exit. I know what you mean though, in Tokyo a player who swipes at you might send themselves into the wall and you would get punished. So somehow steering angles and driving lines do need to be accounted for. However, i would argue that my system and the current one already incentivize against this behavior. If you get swiped and the person wrecks as a result, yes you would take a hit in SR like you currently do but they would potentially lose position and get a wall contact penalty anyways. I would also argue that the likelihood of the offender only wrecking themselves is less common than the offender wrecking you. (but i have no evidence to back that claim up)

True, yet one thing I like to see is permanent penalties. And getting a 10s penalty for somebody else's mistake or reckless driving needs to be eliminated first. Usually they simply wreck you yet with walled in tracks the penalty easily gets put on you while they bounce and go on their way. If the speed into the corner doesn't offer a valid solution out of the corner, you should not get penalized for getting hit by that car. Enough with the wall riding!

And double penalties for first corner contact, make it triple.

 

[Lebowski]

I don't think using MI will put people off. I've been sat on 99,999 for ages and if I was dirty it wouldn't put me off in the slightest. No, what it needs is for the time penalties to be accumulated at the end so they can't be scrubbed off during the race. Combine this with full damage for the person who caused the accident forcing them to pit because their car can no longer reach anywhere near full power or steer straight (No option to exit the game either once you have caused an accident). The victim of the accident should have no damage on their vehicle and no hit to their SR. On top of that, each impact gives you a credit fine on a scale of 1 to 10 for severity (minor tap 1000cr, deiberate ram causing victim to lose places 100,000cr) and that fine is passed to the victim. So now we have a system that truly punishes the idiots and finally gives something to the victims to ease that feeling of anger about unfair treatment.

 

[Scaff]

I don't think using MI will put people off. I've been sat on 99,999 for ages and if I was dirty it wouldn't put me off in the slightest. No, what it needs is for the time penalties to be accumulated at the end so they can't be scrubbed off during the race. Combine this with full damage for the person who caused the accident forcing them to pit because their car can no longer reach anywhere near full power or steer straight (No option to exit the game either once you have caused an accident). The victim of the accident should have no damage on their vehicle and no hit to their SR. On top of that, each impact gives you a credit fine on a scale of 1 to 10 for severity (minor tap 1000cr, deiberate ram causing victim to lose places 100,000cr) and that fine is passed to the victim. So now we have a system that truly punishes the idiots and finally gives something to the victims to ease that feeling of anger about unfair treatmemt.

The potential problem with that is if someone does a pit manoeuvre on you, or pushes you wide on a sweeper them will get no penalty, however you lose control, cause a multi car accident and are suddenly very poor. All from an accident you didn't start.

 

[cleanLX]

First of all I would like to point out that changing how the SR ranks are tiered is pointless. If you are SR S (94/99) then you aren't matched with other SR S Players you will instead be placed within a range around that 94/99. So by changing SR S to 95-99 you are not effectively changing anything about who you are matched with (94/99 will still be matched within a range around 94). Its just that the S will carry a bit more prestige like a badge. There is entirely too much focus on what letter you are not what number you are and the algorithm only cares what number you are.

I think you missed the point entirely then.
If it is indeed based on the numeric value, then tighten up the spread at the top, and widen it as it heads down the ranks.
Whether it's numeric system or lettered, matters not, the whole idea is the spread.
And if it is based on numeric value, what does a red S at end of race mean with regards to numeric value? Betting it's below Sr.95.
I've been sitting at 99/99 for some time, and at end of race I see players with red S... others with Blue... next race, there are the red S players again... Now you see what that breads right? Not really a penalty, and they continue racing against 99's whom's games are focused on being clean, while they continue to take advantage of that and "lightly" bump their way through. Possibly, if they lost their little "badge", they would reconsider the actions from the previous race.
So, as for the badge comment, maybe that's a good thing... I mean I understand your slight, but, think about it, what's with trophies, what's with ruby emerald etc.,? what's with ranking players at all? Maybe it should all be hidden, but, then, where is the incentive or ability to gauge oneself??
It's all about prestige/honor... and this thread is an effort to bolster fairness... witch will have a direct result on matchmaking, so call it a badge if you want...
All I was suggesting is that it should be hard to get/keep an Sr.S rating, and that as a reward to those who do, they should get matchmaking with piers who make an effort to follow gentlemanly racing etiquette.

I reply with a jackolantern tone for two reasons;
1. That is the tone I read in your reply.
2. I came in here to offer suggestions, but it seems you would rather argue and defend you system rather than listen to other players and try and incorporate something that PD could take under advisement.

I thought this thread would be an open discussion with an intent to format a means to improve the system, but, apparently is has become a thread of "no, my way is the right way".

To those reading that just want to help improve the system, Sorry for my rant.

Good day.

 

[John Crellin]

I think you missed the point entirely then.
If it is indeed based on the numeric value, then tighten up the spread at the top, and widen it as it heads down the ranks.
Whether it's numeric system or lettered, matters not, the whole idea is the spread.
And if it is based on numeric value, what does a red S at end of race mean with regards to numeric value? Betting it's below Sr.95.
I've been sitting at 99/99 for some time, and at end of race I see players with red S... others with Blue... next race, there are the red S players again... Now you see what that breads right? Not really a penalty, and they continue racing against 99's whom's games are focused on being clean, while they continue to take advantage of that and "lightly" bump their way through. Possibly, if they lost their little "badge", they would reconsider the actions from the previous race.
So, as for the badge comment, maybe that's a good thing... I mean I understand your slight, but, think about it, what's with trophies, what's with ruby emerald etc.,? what's with ranking players at all? Maybe it should all be hidden, but, then, where is the incentive or ability to gauge oneself??
It's all about prestige/honor... and this thread is an effort to bolster fairness... witch will have a direct result on matchmaking, so call it a badge if you want...
All I was suggesting is that it should be hard to get/keep an Sr.S rating, and that as a reward to those who do, they should get matchmaking with piers who make an effort to follow gentlemanly racing etiquette.

I reply with a jackolantern tone for two reasons;
1. That is the tone I read in your reply.
2. I came in here to offer suggestions, but it seems you would rather argue and defend you system rather than listen to other players and try and incorporate something that PD could take under advisement.

I thought this thread would be an open discussion with an intent to format a means to improve the system, but, apparently is has become a thread of "no, my way is the right way".

To those reading that just want to help improve the system, Sorry for my rant.

Good day.

Sorry buddy I didnt mean to offend anyone with my tone, honestly. And I would love to hear more opinions on the topic (dissenting or not). So far only one other person has disagreed with me (constructively I might add 👍) and I merely intended to defend my points. I added my ideas to add to the conversation not diminish it. In fact, i actually agreed with everything else in your post and thought I was just fleshing out your sentiments with a few specifics.

I just read a lot of posts that blame the matching on how the SR system tiers its letter ranks, but the matching system doesn't really do it that way. For instance, when I am low SR A I get matched with a bunch of SR A and SR B racers, and, conversely, when I am high SR A I get matched with a bunch of SR S and SR A. After a150+ races its seems fairly obvious to me that there is some range that is calculated based on the number of available players near your rank at a given time that determines who you get matched with. I think the letter ranks are there for transparency so that you and I both know what tier I am in. (that would be the badge comment)

The blue and red letters only mean that the players SR numerical value has changed up or down. If you only lose 1pt of SR then it will be red. You dont have to drop a full rank to see a red S. In fact the letter is updated immediately if they did change a rank. So you would see a red A not a red S in the final screen.

You may be right about how keeping an S rank incentivizes clean racing, but for me personally, it is all about keeping my competition as clean as possible that motivates my clean driving. So I cant really speak for how effective tightening the tiers would be on the behavior of other drivers but with the current matching system in place it would not change who you were matched with.

 

[cleanLX]

Apology accepted, and, in hindsight I didn't need to be a jackolantern... so, sorry, I'll act my age next time.
Thanks for the explanation... and cheers to you too.

You may be right about how keeping an S rank incentivizes clean racing, but for me personally, it is all about keeping my competition as clean as possible that motivates my clean driving. So I cant really speak for how effective tightening the tiers would be on the behavior of other drivers but with the current matching system in place it would not change who you were matched with.

ya, I don't know the answers either... I too try and be as clean as possible (I've made mistakes), S tells me I'm doing a good job, but if it were not for KudosPrime website I would have no idea how S-y I was being... hopefully PD is reading these various threads and getting some useful feedback.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Sorry buddy I didnt mean to offend anyone with my tone, honestly. And I would love to hear more opinions on the topic (dissenting or not). So far only one other person has disagreed with me (constructively I might add 👍) and I merely intended to defend my points. I added my ideas to add to the conversation not diminish it.

I just read a lot of posts that blame the matching on how the SR system tiers its letter ranks, but the matching system doesn't really do it that way. For instance, when I am low SR A I get matched with a bunch of SR A and SR B racers, and, conversely, when I am high SR A I get matched with a bunch of SR S and SR A. There is some range that is calculated based on the number of available players near your rank at a given time that determines who you get matched with. I think the letter ranks are there for transparency so that you and I both know what tier I am in. (that would be the badge comment)

The blue and red letters only mean that the players SR numerical value has changed up or down. If you only lose 1pt of SR then it will be red. You dont have to drop a full rank to see a red S. In fact the letter is updated immediately if they did change a rank. So you would see a red A not a red S in the final screen.

You may be right about how keeping an S rank incentivizes clean racing, but for me personally, it is all about keeping my competition as clean as possible that motivates my clean driving. So I cant really speak for how effective tightening the tiers would be on the behavior of other drivers but with the current matching system in place it would not change who you were matched with.

My understanding and that does not mean it is correct only the way I interpret it is that;

1. SR ranking is the first matchmaking step.
2. DR ranking is the second matchmaking step
3. Qualifying time is the final matchmaking step

Of course who is online and waiting to be placed in a lobby for a particular race has a major impact on the matchmaking for each race.

For instance if 40 racers are waiting and all are SR S and then within that pool you have if only 2 DR S racers, 8 DR A racers , 25 DR B racers with the remaining 5 racers are DR D.

The first race should be the 2 S drivers, the 8 A drivers and the 10 fastest qualifying DE B drivers.
The second race should be the remaining 15 DR B drivers with the field filled out with the 5 DR D drivers.

I have seen races with all classes of DR within the same race with as much as a ridiculous 30 second per lap time difference between pole and last place.

I have also seen races with all racers being of the same DR class with about a 2 second time difference in pole and last place.

Much of the matching does depend on what is online at the time wanting to race. This also affects the amount of racing incidents or dirty drivers depending on who is waiting in the available driver pool as well.

The matching will work if people are actually placed within the ranking they belong and just tightening up the criteria used to advance or maintain rankings will help but we are always going to be to a degree subject to the current available pool of racers when we want to race.

 

[John Crellin]

My understanding and that does not mean it is correct only the way I interpret it is that;

1. SR ranking is the first matchmaking step.
2. DR ranking is the second matchmaking step
3. Qualifying time is the final matchmaking step

Yeah I think you are right. That has been my experience also.

The matching will work if people are actually placed within the ranking they belong and just tightening up the criteria used to advance or maintain rankings will help but we are always going to be to a degree subject to the current available pool of racers when we want to race.

This I think would be fixed with a scaling penalty system as a I suggested earlier. You would lose more points per incident at higher ranks making it harder to stay at higher ranks.

Another thing that others have pointed out (that I have noticed also) is the cleanliness of driving at higher DR ranks. My guess is that it is due to the limits on DR based on how high your SR is and the fact that you have to do a lot of clean racing to get to DR A (i.e. maintain SRA or SR S and place high) I wonder if placing a higher priority on DR would help the overall cleanliness of the field. In the higher ranks it might even be better to prioritize DR over SR. It would make for closer higher quality racing.

 

[chris090927]

As long as the penalty system is broken this won't fix anything. Damage is only a tool for the aggressor, the one leaving the track is always worse off.

First GTS needs to educate, what is proper racing, when do you have the right to the apex, when do you need to leave room, when do you need to back off. Then it needs to apply those rules.

If the system can determine who is at fault it needs to force that player to give the position back. Give a 15s bad overtake penalty that can be reduced to 5s if you let the person you bumped while overtaking pass within 30s of the incident. The 5s stands for the remainder of the race, bumping and not overtaking should still be penalized.
If blame cannot be assigned clearly, both players get the regular SR Down.

There should not be resets in SR.S (apart for blatant corner cutting) and re-entering the driving line in front of traffic should get a heavy penalty.

To get to SR.S you need to prove you can drive safely in traffic. Therefore from half SR.A (70 points) you can only gain more SR points while driving clean sectors in close proximity of other cars. In SR.S that proximity requirement shrinks with every further point gained.

Mileage and money can easily be farmed, paying for damage won't be a deterrent and will only inconvenience players that don't play as often.

A permanent time penalty is a better deterrent and would be interesting to see in the result screen. I've had races on Bathurst yersterday where I was the only one without a red dot in the result screen. Things would look very different if you couldn't simply scrub penalties. Of course the yellow flag nonsense penalties need to go, plus the system needs to be fixed so it doesn't give you a penalty for secondary collisions, ie getting punted into another car that flies off track. That blame should end up at the one playing pool. Same goes for time penalties when someone performs a bad overtake and bounces off you into a wall. Bathurst is especially bad at that.

If the game can calculate paths for AI going through a corner together it can also do that for players. The player with a path that has no safe solution is at fault. Hopefully PD is collecting data from all races to use to determine what is safe and unsafe for every part of each track. Every day there are thousands of examples of good and bad overtakes. Use that data!

And be more transparent, show incident rate per corner, best places to overtake, most dangerous parts on the tracks. Perhaps add a new dynamic driving line aid to teach people how to drive in traffic. That line should adjust based on other cars, basically show the AI solution which it can also use to determine blame.

At this point we're beyond education. There are serious ass-hat drivers who purposefully wreck other drivers. i've seen it at driving levels up to A. A black flag system and damage needs to be implemented.

Ideas:
1. Black Flag System: after sending drivers off the road your race is over. This could be contingent on your driveing level.
A & S drivers are immediately black flagged for sending someone off the road. B & C drivers get two chances. D & E get 3 chances. In addition you start at the back of the grid your next race.

2. Multiple race penalties: If you carry a penalty over from one race you start at the back of the grid, or carry that penalty over to your next race no matter when you play. You are also labeled with a penalty icon so everyone knows you're an ass.

3. Adding car damage: If cars attain damage from crashing into one another, then that really ought to solve some of these ass-hat driver issues. It will be less fun for them to ruin everyone's race if they can only finish a lap due to damage.

Thoughts?

 

[Amaru]

Imho the fix is easy. Replace the 99-SR-limit with a much, much, much higher number. For example 999.

The current SR system sucks/fails imho because each step (E,D,C,B,A,S) is too small or too close to the previous one.

Once you hit 80 in the current system, you enter the S-ranked area. Why not have each rank consist of at least a 100points.

So something like this:

E: 0-99
D: 100-199
C: 200-299
B: 300-399
A: 400-499
A+: 500-599
S: 600-750
S+: 750-999

The current 1-99 SR is by far the biggest issue imho. They ought to triple or quadruple the SR cap.

 

[Robben]

That would also provide a safety net to people who want to bump... at the moment, a couple of bad races and you drop, with a 100 point safety gap you could go crazy for a weekend and still be safe!

 

[Amaru]

That would also provide a safety net to people who want to bump... at the moment, a couple of bad races and you drop, with a 100 point safety gap you could go crazy for a weekend and still be safe!

Not really. Touching opponents and driving like it's carmageddon can be set up to penalize people significantly heavier than what we've seen so far in the game.

Touching another players car would be a -50 point reduction, every single time you bump into someone -colliding into an opponent, not being hit by someone-, getting a clean bonus (50%) would be the massive score booster in this system and the way to gain significant SR.

Clean people would end up in anything above A and it would become impossible for dirty drivers to get into the A+ ranked SR races without turning into a clean driver themselves.