Are there numbers for how many race online?

[redhed17]

So does anyone know how many people, on average, play online compared to the total number of owners/players of GT7? I know an exact number of current active players of GT7 is hard to know, against the total number of games sold, if that is even known. But hopefully someobe has access to the numbers.

The reason I ask, is that I saw a video recently by YouTuber SuperGT where he was trying to get a high ranking in a race, and took the time to scroll through the whole ranking list, and got down to the end, about 28k or so. I don't know, I thought there would be maybe 10x more actively playing on the online races. Maybe there is. 🤔

So, if that number of 28k is around the online racing interaction level, it occurred to me that the always online aspect of GT7, which was in part said to counter cheating in online races in GT Sport, is a 'feature' that hinders the vast majority of owners/players for a tiny minority.

I was extremely shocked that there is less to do in GT7 with no internet connection compared to GT Sport with no internet connection! 😲 🙄

 

[Nebuc72]

I doubt the online only aspect is what is moving people away from online. It's more the fact that PD are doing nothing to encourage people to actually race there. Unless you're racing online sheerly for fun or to try and make it to GTWS, it's not worth your time.

Better payouts, events that refresh more and more variety as a whole is what is needed.


EDIT:

Sorry yes I misread it. You're right entirely lol. But I still think the online population would be a lot higher if they actually put effort into making people want to go there.

 

[Imari]

The reason I ask, is that I saw a video recently by YouTuber SuperGT where he was trying to get a high ranking in a race, and took the time to scroll through the whole ranking list, and got down to the end, about 28k or so. I don't know, I thought there would be maybe 10x more actively playing on the online races. Maybe there is. 🤔

If that was just one race, then probably not all the people who play online did that one race. The true number who play on any given week might be 40k or 50k. But it's almost certainly not ~300k.

To be honest, if GT7 has 50k online players that's more than I would have expected. There's very little incentive to get into the mode if you're not someone who already loves online competition for it's own sake. It's not a terribly beginner friendly environment - there's a high chance that new players just get punted in their first few races, get frustrated and never come back. And there's not a whole lot of variety available unless you're going out and finding or making leagues, which have their own issues.

The line that always online is there to combat cheating in Sport Mode is a lie, or at best a creative mistruth. Other games manage online anti-cheat without making the entire game only playable online. The more likely explanation given the design of the rest of the game is that it's there to combat cheating in single player. That makes more sense as a design choice, it's a good way to make cheating in single player much harder. But why would they care about cheating in single player? Microtransactions. There's no real reason for them to care about what players do in single player unless it's potentially denying them revenue.

Always online isn't there to benefit a minority at the expense of the majority. Unless you consider the minority to be Sony and Polyphony, and the majority to be their paying customers.

 

[CodeRedR51]

I know for me and a lot of other people, we have not been playing online due to the server issues. Until they can smooth things out and increase the lobby features, there's really no reason to go there.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

If that was just one race, then probably not all the people who play online did that one race. The true number who play on any given week might be 40k or 50k. But it's almost certainly not ~300k.

The clip OP is talking about is SuperGT scrolling down a qualifying times leaderboard to see who the slowest driver is. Anyone who races but doesn't do a qualifier isn't entered on to the leaderboard, so add them into your estimate.

But why would they care about cheating in single player?

Because single player does impact online.

Consider the Alfa 155. That car dominates the GR4 races right now. If you didn't have enough credits to buy it, you could either grind 1 race 30 minute race, or spend 10 minutes editing your save to give yourself unlimited credits. At that point you've got a very competitive car. While you're at it you could also give yourself every car in the game... Every trophy... etc.

 

[Imari]

The clip OP is talking about is SuperGT scrolling down a qualifying times leaderboard to see who the slowest driver is. Anyone who races but doesn't do a qualifier isn't entered on to the leaderboard, so add them into your estimate.

How many should we add?

Because single player does impact online.

Consider the Alfa 155. That car dominates the GR4 races right now. If you didn't have enough credits to buy it, you could either grind 1 race 30 minute race, or spend 10 minutes editing your save to give yourself unlimited credits. At that point you've got a very competitive car. While you're at it you could also give yourself every car in the game... Every trophy... etc.

I thought you could rent cars for online now. Is that not the case?

As for giving yourself unlimited cars and credits in single player - so what? I mean, assuming that Polyphony isn't smart enough to figure out a way around save editors in the first place of course. The only games that are worried about save editors are the ones that aren't fun enough to keep playing without a carrot dangling in front of the player.

And giving yourself every trophy? I've only ever heard of people doing this on jailbroken consoles, and it's not exactly super common. They tend to get banned, because at some point you have to connect your jailbroken console to PSN to have it register on the online leaderboards. Is there some wave of people out there hacking trophies, or is this just something you threw out as a potential problem even though it really isn't one?

 

[Grimm6Jack]

Because single player does impact online.

Consider the Alfa 155. That car dominates the GR4 races right now. If you didn't have enough credits to buy it, you could either grind 1 race 30 minute race, or spend 10 minutes editing your save to give yourself unlimited credits. At that point you've got a very competitive car. While you're at it you could also give yourself every car in the game... Every trophy... etc.

It doesn't, you can rent cars in Sport Mode. So you don't need a single credit to play online at all.

What Imari wrote is pretty much on point.

 

[Meythia]

How many should we add?

If there are 30k sport mode players on the leaderboards, assume they are regulars. Then multiply with the trophy of having finished 50 online races to increase the number to all players who have started the game.

Then reduce by the amount for not having the trophy of having finished music rally to single out those who definitly havent played the game.
That would be a very rough estimate based on 2 assumptions (1st regular online players, 2nd no multiple accounts), also for any given game the number would drop to between 50% and 33% depending on how well the game does in general.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

And giving yourself every trophy? I've only ever heard of people doing this on jailbroken consoles, and it's not exactly super common.

You can actually use something like the PS4 Save Wizard, as it allows you to reassign the associated PSN account on a save. You'd just go download someone else's save, most saves are missing one simple trophy. The idea being you download their save, reassign the save to your PSN, and when you get that simple trophy it causes all of the other ones to pop at the same time.

The team behind it charge for the software and restrict it to non-online games, though there are alternatives out there that don't.

 

[Sven Jurgens]

GT7 keeps the numbers under lock and key, yet for GT Sport, a title focused on sport mode:
84% of players never did a single sport race
Only 5% of players did more than 20 sport mode races

Stats | Gran Turismo Sport | kudosprime.com

www.kudosprime.com

 

[Imari]

You can actually use something like the PS4 Save Wizard, as it allows you to reassign the associated PSN account on a save. You'd just go download someone else's save, most saves are missing one simple trophy. The idea being you download their save, reassign the save to your PSN, and when you get that simple trophy it causes all of the other ones to pop at the same time.

The team behind it charge for the software and restrict it to non-online games, though there are alternatives out there that don't.

Okay. Is this a common problem? One worth sacrificing playability for all players for a single game, and that can't be addressed in any other way?

Because online only for single player is a big move that had significant negative effects very early on in GT7's life for all players, and it's assumed that like most other online only games it will become a coaster at end of life. I'm not seeing that the benefits outweigh the costs. If what you say is true the trophy system is already broken, so adding one more game is a drop in the bucket.

 

[Zero2Oblivion]

Okay. Is this a common problem? One worth sacrificing playability for all players for a single game, and that can't be addressed in any other way?

Because online only for single player is a big move that had significant negative effects very early on in GT7's life for all players, and it's assumed that like most other online only games it will become a coaster at end of life. I'm not seeing that the benefits outweigh the costs. If what you say is true the trophy system is already broken, so adding one more game is a drop in the bucket.

It's not a matter of considering whether it's just a handful of people who may cheat, or if it's a lot. You have to approach the matter with a blanket rule - if one person can cheat, that one person may tell someone else, who will then tell someone else, and on and on and on.

For PD the safest way to prevent any kind of cheating is to employ the "always online" rule.

 

[Imari]

It's not a matter of considering whether it's just a handful of people who may cheat, or if it's a lot. You have to approach the matter with a blanket rule - if one person can cheat, that one person may tell someone else, who will then tell someone else, and on and on and on.

Lol. Righto, Chief Justice. You sit there in your ivory tower and dictate how it should be to us plebs. The rest of us will be out here in the real world where player experience is actually a factor in design decisions. Probably the most important factor in design decisions. If it wasn't, then nobody would pushback against things like Starforce and Denuvo, and we'd all have rootkits installed on our hardware to make sure we weren't cheating.

Honestly, if Polyphony aren't taking how proposed anti-cheat solutions might affect the player experience into account when evaluating them, they're morons.

For PD the safest way to prevent any kind of cheating is to employ the "always online" rule.

Nope. The safest way to prevent cheating is to not allow people to play. Can't cheat if you can't access the game.

But developers don't do that, because it sort of ruins the player experience and tends not to earn that much money. Always online is already a compromise, because the developers need the players to at least be able to interact with the game.

Always online is far from foolproof as a method of anti-cheat, as you should know from the endless cheats in online games over the years. Most of which don't really spread that widely, and almost none of which go endemic in the community in the way you're suggesting is inevitable. Games have to be really, really broken in order to see truly widespread cheating.

If the players are able to play the game, then there's a good chance that with enough work they can beat whatever anti-cheat you have going. Nothing is ultimately going to provide absolute protection. All you can do is make it hard enough that most people won't bother. And that's where the balance between benefits and costs comes in.

If you have a current cheater population of 100 cheaters in a user base of 10 million, do you implement a change that will cut that to 50 cheaters at the cost of making each race take 5 minutes to load into while your anti-cheat runs system and RAM checks? I'd suggest probably not, but you're suggesting that's a slam dunk of a change.

Each to their own, but I'm not ruining the experience of 9,999,900 users for the sake of stopping 50 cheaters from getting imaginary pixel trophies they haven't legitimately earned. The old expression is "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater", but the more modern "we had to destroy the village to save it" it probably more apt. If your anti-cheat ruins the game, maybe letting the cheaters be is the lesser evil.

 

[redhed17]

Thanks everyone for taking the time to comment. 🙂

I must admit that I am one of the 84% of players never did a single GT Sport online race, and whatever percentage of GT7 players who have not played an online race against real people.

I have been playing Gran Turismo since before GT 1 was released in the UK via Japanese import. I know the kind of GT game I like, and racing others online has not, and is not, a part of the games that I have any interest in. Being penalised for a feature I have no interest in would be one thing if the vast majority were using the feature, but for only a tiny fraction users, and to stop an even smaller percentage of those users from potentially cheating, seems extreme if true.

In a way I hope the always connected nature of the last two GT games is to do with stopping cheating, for however many or few that may be to counter, rather than the financial option for increased micro transactions.

I bought the PS4 pretty much for GT Sport, and was of course disappointed with what was offered. It improved over time, but was not a 'true' GT game for me. I have bought a PS5 for similar reasons, though GT Sport (for now) works, as do the handful of other games I got for the PS4 thanks to backward compatibility.

GT7 is closer to a 'true' GT game, but is lacking in depth imho, and the hoped benefit of being able to connect a game to the internet, additional content, has been very sparse, again imho. GT Sport felt like it had a lot more content added, but maybe that had a lot to do that there was not much depth to start with, and so that needed to be improved. Maybe they feel GT7 has enough content for the most part. 🤔

I do not see why they are not at least adding more challenges every month, as that is easier to do, with little need for new assets.

I have in the past taken the PS 1,2 and 3 consoles to friends and family on occasion, and played games. When visiting my mother, there was no, and continues not to be, an internet connection. The PS5 is a bit too large to carry around, but that is beside the point, I can still take any of those consoles, and the games for them, out at home, or take anywhere, and still play the games. Not something that may be possible with some games, and in my case, GT Sport and GT7 in particular, because there is not much there without an internet connection. And if and when they turn the servers off that support these games, not even your internet connection will matter. That is quite sad.

 

[FoxMulder]

The GT7 trophy for finishing just one Sport mode race is 14.7%. Most players didn’t play online in GT Sport either. Seems like it would be higher for all the focus they put on this.

They still ignore solo content and online lobbies for this esports stuff.

 

[BigSarj]

I put some blame on PD for not incentivizing playing online. I'm not saying they should make it necessary but I think there is a world of people out there who would enjoy it but just don't know about it or are intimidated by it. I was once one of those people but now I really enjoy racing online from time to time.

 

[Samus]

The GT7 trophy for finishing just one Sport mode race is 14.7%. Most players didn’t play online in GT Sport either. Seems like it would be higher for all the focus they put on this.

They still ignore solo content and online lobbies for this esports stuff.

Hardly surprising, it's essentially identical. They made no efforts to make it more desirable.

 

[redhed17]

I put some blame on PD for not incentivizing playing online. I'm not saying they should make it necessary but I think there is a world of people out there who would enjoy it but just don't know about it or are intimidated by it. I was once one of those people but now I really enjoy racing online from time to time.

I think aiming one version of Gran Turismo at online racing may inform almost all users of the online racing option in that, and subsequent GT games.

IMHO, you either want to want to race online a lot, or you're not really bothered. Few will pay the monthly PSN cost on the off chance they may do the odd online race, if they are not getting other benefits from the subscription. I know I won't pay any subscription, and can't even be bothered to do the month's trial.

The online racing aspect of GT Sport/7 necessitates paying the subscription monthly/yearly, whatever, and maybe that is worth designing a game in part, to be always connected to the internet to counter that handful in the minority of online racers who wish to cheat. For those with no interest in racing online it seems a lot of inconvenience, and limits the usability of a game years down the line.

 

[BigSarj]

I think aiming one version of Gran Turismo at online racing may inform almost all users of the online racing option in that, and subsequent GT games.

IMHO, you either want to want to race online a lot, or you're not really bothered. Few will pay the monthly PSN cost on the off chance they may do the odd online race, if they are not getting other benefits from the subscription. I know I won't pay any subscription, and can't even be bothered to do the month's trial.

The online racing aspect of GT Sport/7 necessitates paying the subscription monthly/yearly, whatever, and maybe that is worth designing a game in part, to be always connected to the internet to counter that handful in the minority of online racers who wish to cheat. For those with no interest in racing online it seems a lot of inconvenience, and limits the usability of a game years down the line.

People play online games on PlayStation a lot. I don't have numbers to back this up but I'm sure the numbers are there for all sorts of other games. PlayStation Studios are investing heavily into Games as a Service for a reason.

Maybe there are a large amount of people on GTPlanet that only own a PlayStation for Gran Turismo but I doubt that's the case for most everywhere else.

Speaking for myself, I've played a variety of multiplayer on PS3/4/5 but was hesitant to try it in GT Sport. I wish I remember what it was that spurred me to finally try it but I'm glad I did. I was immediately hooked and bought a wheel soon after.

My suggestion would be to have the single player include a half decent AI, qualifying, a penalty system, and maybe even a video to teach the basics of race craft. Maybe one day.

 

[mattikake]

The online figures will no doubt be affected by the dire state gt7 is in at the moment. The crap ffb is fine for racing against duff AI but it's anti-competitive for racing humans. That keeps me away from daily races. The shocking state of the lobbies keeps me away from those too.

As a result I've just realised i haven't played gt7 for a month. I've given up on the game completely.

Daily races are only a portion of online players. An unknown/untracked number play in lobbies for fun or in community leagues. This 28k figure could be way higher but 10k more or 100k more nobody knows.