Are we ever gonna get ''real'' tracks?

  • Thread starter mikecustom
  • 39 comments
  • 4,503 views
mikecustom

mikecustom

(Banned)
210
ppmike921
This, not a single track in any FM game has been accurate. Does anyone here care? Because I think this needs to change, when are we gonna get a decent Nordschleife? Heck, even Shift 2 had a better representation of it.
 
I think most people would want T10 to drop the Project Gotham Nordschliefe but have you got any examples of mistakes with other FM tracks?
 
I think most of the tracks are as accurate as they can be without laser scanning with the exception being the ring, hopefully T10 will sort that out for 5
 
UKMikey
I think most people would want T10 to drop the Project Gotham Nordschliefe but have you got any examples of mistakes with other FM tracks?
Click to expand...

I also think that most of the other tracks are rather good. I am quiet happy with them. Of course I can only compare them with other racing games like GT5, Grid or Shift 2.
 
I've watched all kinds of car races from all over the world. I've driven all the tracks in GT5 and FM4.

Without having driven the tracks a lot in real life, how would I know the racks are inaccurate? I agree the Nord is better in GT5, but how far from the original track is it?
 
mikecustom
This, not a single track in any FM game has been accurate. Does anyone here care? Because I think this needs to change, when are we gonna get a decent Nordschleife? Heck, even Shift 2 had a better representation of it.
Click to expand...

No. We're not. Turn10 said that they made every track a little wider and, thus, a little longer, to make them more "multiplayer friendly." And for the Xbox Live community, that's understandable. So, unless we can make private lobbies so we can keep the kids out and unless Turn10 has played GT5 and realized you don't need to mess with the tracks to create a great racing environment (What they do the their own tracks is their business...which...their tracks are pretty narrow at spots. I, mean, some of their OWN tracks have sections that are narrower than the real Nurburgring. But, whatever) then Forza will never have accurate tracks.
 
Shouden
No. We're not. Turn10 said that they made every track a little wider and, thus, a little longer, to make them more "multiplayer friendly." And for the Xbox Live community, that's understandable. So, unless we can make private lobbies so we can keep the kids out and unless Turn10 has played GT5 and realized you don't need to mess with the tracks to create a great racing environment (What they do the their own tracks is their business...which...their tracks are pretty narrow at spots. I, mean, some of their OWN tracks have sections that are narrower than the real Nurburgring. But, whatever) then Forza will never have accurate tracks.
Click to expand...

They have never said anything of the sort, PGR developers "Bizzare creations" developed there version of the ring to be multi player friendly and as Forzas is essentially the same....... Well you get what I am saying. Like I said all tracks except the ring are as accurate as can be without using laser scanning tech.
 
tomcat66
You can check that by watching videos like these:
I would say it is very, very close to the real thing.
Click to expand...

I would agree, but if the truth is sought out, the Nord in GT5 looks a lot better than in real life.

I was on youtube last night and there are a lot of videos comparing FM4 to real life and they do not look too bad either.
 
I don't think anyone on this forum would complain about tracks being closer to real-life.

Unfortunately, it seems like T10 isn't as obsessive over accuracy in the same way Polyphony is (not in all areas of course). This is a good and bad thing, as it gives them the ability to move quicker. We just lose some of the finer details.

One example I can think of is with GT's Type-Rs. If you select Championship White, the wheels are color-matched the same way they are in real life. If you pick any other color, the wheels switch to silver.
 
I can't say much about the other racetracks in the game, but having been around the Nordschleife in real life, I can say the version in FM4 is pretty poor. It seems more like a "sketch" of a well-known track layout than an actual recreation; it's "the Nurburgring," not the Nürburgring Nordschleife. This makes sense given its status in the greater (non-hardcore) console racing community.

We haven't gotten a decent FM rendition of that track yet; it's been one glaring fault since the day FM1 stepped up against GT4. The standards have been raised since then.
 
Shouden
No. We're not. Turn10 said that they made every track a little wider and, thus, a little longer, to make them more "multiplayer friendly." And for the Xbox Live community, that's understandable. So, unless we can make private lobbies so we can keep the kids out and unless Turn10 has played GT5 and realized you don't need to mess with the tracks to create a great racing environment (What they do the their own tracks is their business...which...their tracks are pretty narrow at spots. I, mean, some of their OWN tracks have sections that are narrower than the real Nurburgring. But, whatever) then Forza will never have accurate tracks.
Click to expand...

Exaclty, that's what I'm referring to unaccurate tracks. The Corkscrew in Laguna for example is too wide and watered down in FM and while GT5's level of detail is pretty poor on that particular track, the surface is recreated very well, not perfect but a lot closer than FM4.
 
Mike,

I'd like to leave a little feedback here based on what I know, as I had a chance to learn a little bit of programming back in school. Generally recreating tracks in a driving sim, especially when that sim happens to be on a console, can be a rather costly affair. You have so many factors to keep in mind, so many parameters, and you cannot work outside them. Lets talk about The Ring' first. The new IBL model probably didn't allow for more detail, so they actually ended up sacrificing some in FM4. FM3's Ring' looked better, but I don't know if it was that accurate, as I've never been there IRL. Plus, the fact, that they chose overcast weather for it, does make it look rather drab, but it does have it's exciting moments as well.

Now, tracks not being accurate: it was an active decision on T10's part to make them wider, a little longer too (not sure) to allow for easier multplayer overtaking (16 cars). Since there is no flagging or penalty system in FM4, I believe this was done deliberately to keep the race moving along at a decent pace. Also, track days and Autocross races would have been rather difficult with narrower tracks. This has been discussed on T10's forum a countless number of times.

However, in my personal and rather humble opinion, the decision to tinker with the track's scales was probably not a good one. I for one, would have loved to race on narrower tracks and the real life versions. As for the turns and all, they are quite accurate, MOST of them, if not all. This has been discussed at length on the official forum "forzamotorsport.net", along with the decision to keep the tracks generally larger and the accuracy of the overall layout. Check out this link:

http://forums.forzamotorsport.net/forums/thread/5957624.aspx
 
mikecustom
Exaclty, that's what I'm referring to unaccurate tracks. The Corkscrew in Laguna for example is too wide and watered down in FM and while GT5's level of detail is pretty poor on that particular track, the surface is recreated very well, not perfect but a lot closer than FM4.
Click to expand...

Corkscrew at Laguna I feel is the best example of inaccurate track modeling by T10.
 
And yet, sometimes Forza does better with track dynamics that GT. I was an avid GT player until I got my XBox, then I moved to Forza. There were some shaky tracks, like Motegi. The track itself was OK, but I'm also pretty sure they have no balance with the outside bits of the track. At least with Forza, when you go outside the track, you know it.
 
CyanideCola
And yet, sometimes Forza does better with track dynamics that GT. I was an avid GT player until I got my XBox, then I moved to Forza. There were some shaky tracks, like Motegi. The track itself was OK, but I'm also pretty sure they have no balance with the outside bits of the track. At least with Forza, when you go outside the track, you know it.
Click to expand...

You mean, visually? I agree that Forza has better detailed tracks but the colors chosen and the contrast makes it look arcadey. T10 needs to realize that real life is not so colorful and bright. GT5 just looks realistic, there's no arguing on that. Ifyou meant physically, GT5 feels slippery off track, Forza 4just stops you like glue. You tell me which is more realistic.
 
i understand the "quicksand" it's to stop the corner cutters from gaining advantages. I just moved over from GT5 about a month ago and can live with what T10 has produced. It may not be perfect but I'm enjoying Sebring, Road Atlanta, Road America, Hockenheim and getting use to their versions of similar tracks.
 
mikecustom
You mean, visually? I agree that Forza has better detailed tracks but the colors chosen and the contrast makes it look arcadey. T10 needs to realize that real life is not so colorful and bright. GT5 just looks realistic, there's no arguing on that. Ifyou meant physically, GT5 feels slippery off track, Forza 4just stops you like glue. You tell me which is more realistic.
Click to expand...
It's the difference between the games on track which makes the difference as to which one I play more. Colours and off track physics are a lot less important to me than the feedback I get from the cars on the road.
 
You mean, visually? I agree that Forza has better detailed tracks but the colors chosen and the contrast makes it look arcadey. T10 needs to realize that real life is not so colorful and bright. GT5 just looks realistic, there's no arguing on that. Ifyou meant physically, GT5 feels slippery off track, Forza 4just stops you like glue. You tell me which is more realistic.
Click to expand...

I gave up on GT after 4. What drew me to Forza and will always have me drawn to it will be the massive amount of customization, realistic customization that you can do. I'm not saying Gran Turismo is a bad game... nor am I saying Forza is a great game. Both have realistic bits and unrealistic bits. But what I find that Forza does right that GT seemed to skip over is actually the car quality. It took Sony and Polyphony how many years to bring out cockpit views that seemed real? Forza had them from day 1.
 
UKMikey
It's the difference between the games on track which makes the difference as to which one I play more. Colours and off track physics are a lot less important to me than the feedback I get from the cars on the road.
Click to expand...

Same. That's why I gave up on GT after 4. The cars were good, the track dynamics were hideous, both on and off. And how they did the car tuning... eugh. I'd rather sit through Sega GT 2002.
 
mikecustom
This, not a single track in any FM game has been accurate. Does anyone here care? Because I think this needs to change, when are we gonna get a decent Nordschleife? Heck, even Shift 2 had a better representation of it.
Click to expand...

I'm really not sure where everybody is having such an issue with Nordschleife. They always go on about how horrible it is, but they do a poor job of detailing how that is. Yes, it's a known issue that it is scaled up in size a bit, which simultaneously covers 1) the increased circuit length, 2) increased radius of corners, 3) wider track, and 4) elevation. If they simply select the entire track model and shrink it down a bit, all of these would suddenly shrink to proper size all at once.

What people are failing to do is say that at such-and-such point along the track Forza's Nordschleife turns right when in real life it turns left. They're failing to say that in Forza it goes uphill when in real life it's downhill. They're failing to say that there is a straight where there shouldn't be or that there are extra curves where it should be straight. The reason they're failing to say these things is that they aren't true. They still have all the right curves going the right directions in the right places, up and down when it should go up or down, straight when straight, et cetera. This means it's mostly accurate, and that whining is in the little things. If it's missing a bump in the middle of the road or a dip, that isn't "horribly inaccurate". If the camber is off by two percent in a specific spot, that isn't "way off and totally unrealistic".

 
IceMan PJN
I'm really not sure where everybody is having such an issue with Nordschleife. They always go on about how horrible it is, but they do a poor job of detailing how that is. Yes, it's a known issue that it is scaled up in size a bit, which simultaneously covers 1) the increased circuit length, 2) increased radius of corners, 3) wider track, and 4) elevation. If they simply select the entire track model and shrink it down a bit, all of these would suddenly shrink to proper size all at once.

What people are failing to do is say that at such-and-such point along the track Forza's Nordschleife turns right when in real life it turns left. They're failing to say that in Forza it goes uphill when in real life it's downhill. They're failing to say that there is a straight where there shouldn't be or that there are extra curves where it should be straight. The reason they're failing to say these things is that they aren't true. They still have all the right curves going the right directions in the right places, up and down when it should go up or down, straight when straight, et cetera. This means it's mostly accurate, and that whining is in the little things. If it's missing a bump in the middle of the road or a dip, that isn't "horribly inaccurate". If the camber is off by two percent in a specific spot, that isn't "way off and totally unrealistic".

Click to expand...


It's a lot worse that you can imagine. I do not know all of the track's corner names but I can tell you like a 100 things that are wrong with it and that would take a lot of time. Of course, the main thing is the track length and width but that wouldn't matter all that much if track surface in general and rumble strips were accurate. The entire track is flat, I mean, you do have elevation changes but corner banking doesn't exist in FM's Nurb. I mentioned the rumble strips, they are all flat, in real life, there are quite a few that would break your suspension. Straights are far longer than normal. Karussell is way too big, you can fit your entire car in the inside section of it. These are the main things that I find terrible with FM's Nurb, Not to mention that all corners have lost the sharpness and this has to do with the physics deparment, you can brake far too late in FM and not get any lock up so that completely changes your way of driving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENmnEd7EZd4
 
I play a lot more of FM4 than GT5.

Curiously, when I drive the 'Ring in GT5, I never, ever get lost or surprised by the shapness of a turn, an elevation change, a curb steepness or whatever.

If Forza's version was that horribly innacurate and because I'm playing this version 80% of the time I guess I would be totally lost with The Real Nurburgring Simulator.

No. I can even occasionaly win multiplayer races on it.

What I find totally anti climax on GT5 'Ring is how much my ZR-1 sounds like a blender full of marbles. Now THAT is totally horrible and innacurate...:lol:
 
rocketcaron
I play a lot more of FM4 than GT5.

Curiously, when I drive the 'Ring in GT5, I never, ever get lost or surprised by the shapness of a turn, an elevation change, a curb steepness or whatever.

If Forza's version was that horribly innacurate and because I'm playing this version 80% of the time I guess I would be totally lost with The Real Nurburgring Simulator.

No. I can even occasionaly win multiplayer races on it.

What I find totally anti climax on GT5 'Ring is how much my ZR-1 sounds like a blender full of marbles. Now THAT is totally horrible and innacurate...:lol:
Click to expand...

Yes, the sounds are bad but I fail to see what does that have to do with track modeling. If you want to go that direction, this isn't the thread for it but let me tell you that Forza isn't any closer than GT in the sound department.

About the tracks, I don't know how could somebody get lost in a track, even if you have never been there. I can even drive it better on Shift 2, does that mean that Shift did a better job? Absolutely not, it just means that I know the track well enough both IRL and in any kind of software.
 
mikecustom
It's a lot worse that you can imagine. I do not know all of the track's corner names but I can tell you like a 100 things that are wrong with it and that would take a lot of time. Of course, the main thing is the track length and width but that wouldn't matter all that much if track surface in general and rumble strips were accurate. The entire track is flat, I mean, you do have elevation changes but corner banking doesn't exist in FM's Nurb. I mentioned the rumble strips, they are all flat, in real life, there are quite a few that would break your suspension. Straights are far longer than normal. Karussell is way too big, you can fit your entire car in the inside section of it. These are the main things that I find terrible with FM's Nurb, Not to mention that all corners have lost the sharpness and this has to do with the physics deparment, you can brake far too late in FM and not get any lock up so that completely changes your way of driving.
Click to expand...
I agree. 👍 You can run the same turns in the same order, but with longer straights and larger corners and exaggerated features, it's not really the same track anymore. It's obviously not an easy track to model accurately, but FM4's example ranks pretty low in my experience.
 
If you want to go that direction, this isn't the thread for it
Click to expand...

Look Mike, if I feel like saying it I will and it was only a part of my post. Don't worry I'm not going to stick to that argument forever on your thread.

but let me tell you that Forza isn't any closer than GT in the sound department.
Click to expand...


I'm sorry but I don't agree with that. Anyway thats not what we're talking about here right?

About the tracks, I don't know how could somebody get lost in a track, even if you have never been there. I can even drive it better on Shift 2, does that mean that Shift did a better job? Absolutely not, it just means that I know the track well enough both IRL and in any kind of software.
Click to expand...

All I was saying is that if Forza's version is so wrong, horrible, inacurate, ugly or whatever else you want to call it I would not be able to immediately be as smooth and fast on the fantastic (really!) GT5 version.

I absolutely love GT5 Ring, I think its a work of beauty and its a better version than FM version no contest.

I just happen to think that the quality of track rendition is just one part of what makes these games believable and immersive.
 
rocketcaron
I play a lot more of FM4 than GT5.

Curiously, when I drive the 'Ring in GT5, I never, ever get lost or surprised by the shapness of a turn, an elevation change, a curb steepness or whatever.

If Forza's version was that horribly innacurate and because I'm playing this version 80% of the time I guess I would be totally lost with The Real Nurburgring Simulator.

No. I can even occasionaly win multiplayer races on it.

What I find totally anti climax on GT5 'Ring is how much my ZR-1 sounds like a blender full of marbles. Now THAT is totally horrible and innacurate...:lol:
Click to expand...

Hahaha....blender full of marbles... spot on!!

IceMan PJN
I'm really not sure where everybody is having such an issue with Nordschleife. They always go on about how horrible it is, but they do a poor job of detailing how that is. Yes, it's a known issue that it is scaled up in size a bit, which simultaneously covers 1) the increased circuit length, 2) increased radius of corners, 3) wider track, and 4) elevation. If they simply select the entire track model and shrink it down a bit, all of these would suddenly shrink to proper size all at once.

What people are failing to do is say that at such-and-such point along the track Forza's Nordschleife turns right when in real life it turns left. They're failing to say that in Forza it goes uphill when in real life it's downhill. They're failing to say that there is a straight where there shouldn't be or that there are extra curves where it should be straight. The reason they're failing to say these things is that they aren't true. They still have all the right curves going the right directions in the right places, up and down when it should go up or down, straight when straight, et cetera. This means it's mostly accurate, and that whining is in the little things. If it's missing a bump in the middle of the road or a dip, that isn't "horribly inaccurate". If the camber is off by two percent in a specific spot, that isn't "way off and totally unrealistic".

Click to expand...


Precisely, it's not about the tracks, but the car and driving aspect, and that has been nailed almost perfectly!

mikecustom
Yes, the sounds are bad but I fail to see what does that have to do with track modeling. If you want to go that direction, this isn't the thread for it but let me tell you that Forza isn't any closer than GT in the sound department.

About the tracks, I don't know how could somebody get lost in a track, even if you have never been there. I can even drive it better on Shift 2, does that mean that Shift did a better job? Absolutely not, it just means that I know the track well enough both IRL and in any kind of software.
Click to expand...

Mike, I think what he's trying to say is that it really is not a big deal at all, and nothing game-breaking by any means. I would tend to disagree with you regarding the whole FM4 vs GT5 audio debate; FM4's audio is far FAR ahead of GT5. Cold fact it is too!

Wolfe
I agree. 👍 You can run the same turns in the same order, but with longer straights and larger corners and exaggerated features, it's not really the same track anymore. It's obviously not an easy track to model accurately, but FM4's example ranks pretty low in my experience.
Click to expand...

Hmm, yeah but FM4 isn't really an industry grade simulator. Neither is it meant to be used as a tool to practice and improve actual racing on any real life track. Tracks have been made wider and generally larger for known reasons people, let's just leave it at that. Every bump, curve and elevation change is easily detectable, and car set ups affect your lap times drastically. That's proof right there that most of the bumps, curves and elevation changes are where they should be...just a little bigger.

There, thread closed! :sly:
 
Shouden
No. We're not. Turn10 said that they made every track a little wider and, thus, a little longer, to make them more "multiplayer friendly." And for the Xbox Live community, that's understandable. So, unless we can make private lobbies so we can keep the kids out and unless Turn10 has played GT5 and realized you don't need to mess with the tracks to create a great racing environment (What they do the their own tracks is their business...which...their tracks are pretty narrow at spots. I, mean, some of their OWN tracks have sections that are narrower than the real Nurburgring. But, whatever) then Forza will never have accurate tracks.
Click to expand...

No, just no.

The only track that was widened was the Nurburgring and it was widened by the PGR team who made it. The FM4 model is mostly the same but a little bit skinnier. The rest of the tracks have no such changes.

And shock horror, real life race tracks are actually extremely wide in the first place.
 
Whether the Nurb is totally accurate or not doesn't make if fun to drive.

One track, accurate or not I dislike is Sebring. It's like racing through a mobile home park without the kids, dogs, shopping carts and drunks.
 

Similar threads

MarionJ13
(Updated to 1.31) Lazy Man's Guide to Grinding
2
Replies
34
Views
9K
smoothbore12
smoothbore12
CnPx
  • Poll
Do you think GT7 will ever be the game we want it to be?
3 4 5
Replies
130
Views
7K
TumeK5
TumeK5
rex1825
Missing layouts on real circuits
Replies
9
Views
2K
AussieMitch
A
GingerBredMan
What tracks are on your ‘blacklist’?
Replies
11
Views
2K
DK
DK
JF Chardon
FREE Access until May 30th 2022!!
Replies
1
Views
2K
SFredriksson
SFredriksson

Latest Posts

Back