BAR Honda BAN pending...

  • Thread starter pimp racer
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wow.

i don't understand though.....how would an extra fuel tank subtract weight from the car?

is it because they used extra fuel as ballast?

edit: and what exactly is scrutineering? it's not in the dictionary.
 
Omnis
edit: and what exactly is scrutineering? it's not in the dictionary.

Thats where Scrutineers (officials) check the car over to make sure the car abides by the rules and is safe.
 
VIPERGTSR01
Thats where Scrutineers (officials) check the car over to make sure the car abides by the rules and is safe.

ah, that's what a figured. i'm not totally on the ball tonight, though. lol.
 
Omnis
wow.

i don't understand though.....how would an extra fuel tank subtract weight from the car?

is it because they used extra fuel as ballast?


The cars are weighed before the race and must be 600kg or more with no fuel on board.

BAR had a secret compartment with fuel in it. So when the race started and the fuel was used, the "dry" weight of the car was less than 600kg.
 
DQuaN
The cars are weighed before the race and must be 600kg or more with no fuel on board.

BAR had a secret compartment with fuel in it. So when the race started and the fuel was used, the "dry" weight of the car was less than 600kg.
But when the car is weighed after the race, they are allowed to top up oils etc but not fuel. So at the end of the race the car would always underweight. So I don't see how that works.
 
man... did it really make that much of a difference that they risked getting banned?

💡 I guess so. but how much of a difference is my question.
 
daan
But when the car is weighed after the race, they are allowed to top up oils etc but not fuel. So at the end of the race the car would always underweight. So I don't see how that works.

The idea being this:

600KG car: weighs 540KG plus 60KG of fuel in "secret tank".

Car starts at 660KG, with 60KG "official" fuel in it. Runs through race. Broom broom. Car consumes 120KG fuel. Is now running underweight. Fuel at 1st stop fills only "secret tank". Car weighs 600KG fuelled. Runs through that fuel again, makes late stop, takes on 120KG fuel. Uses final 60KG fuel, ends race @ 600 KG. Scrutineers manage (how???) to scavenge ALL fuel out of it. Oops...

Numbers are made up, but it's that mid-race underweight phase that's the problem.
 
Sounds like it would have (and was) a hard and risky thing to get away with, I dont understand why they would risk it? Pressure to win?
 
daan
But when the car is weighed after the race, they are allowed to top up oils etc but not fuel. So at the end of the race the car would always underweight. So I don't see how that works.

yeah, exactly.


that and i thought they were complaining about the tank itself. i figured they emptied that secret tank for the scrutinizing as well. lol.
 
BAR is attempting to prove that the car never ran under 600kg. The car, when weighed at the end of the race, weighed OVER 600kg, meaning at no time during the last stint of the race did the car run under 600kg. Only at the request of the FIA was the BAR 007 drained of it's fluids and reweighed, and found to be about 40kgs under weight.

BAR is adament about knowing for certain that their car never ran under 600kgs, and always had enough fuel in it to meet the 600kg requirement.

The FIA also knows exactly how much fuel went into the cars, the sensors on the fueling rigs are quite exact. This means the FIA can tell how much fuel BAR put into the car at every pitstop, and would be able to calculate if at any time prior to the stop that the car could have run under 600kgs.

What is really in question here is wether or not fuel can be used as ballast. The rules specifically state that fuel cannot be used as ballast, but at the same time the rules say that ballast must be something that cannot be removed without the use of "tools". The question is wether or not fuel is removeable with tools (IE: The fueling rig).

It is not confirmed if BAR was running a "2nd tank", but if they were it appears that it would have been a sealed tank that actually didn't even connect to the engine, and thus was there for the express purpose of holding ballast fuel that could not be easily removed without tools.

As for banning, it's more likely that BAR will be stripped of their points but allowed to continue the rest of the season, since banning BAR would leave Formula 1 under the 20 car requirement, forcing teams to run a 3rd driver.

Oh, and getting your news on a Honda ban from a Toyota fanboy site isn't exactly the best source...
 
but why would they use fuel as ballast when they could just use ordinary water? dragging fuel around just makes for a potential fire hazard, doesn't it?
 
Just scanned through the posts really quickly since I am about to leave but I heard someone talk about how much of a difference it made? I cant rember where I read it but it said about .4 seconds faster EACH LAP! Thats a hella difference if ya ask me.
 
No ways BAR will get banned.

At the most they will get stripped of the races points and fined.
 
reuters
Formula 1’s governing body has called for the BAR-Honda team to be thrown out of the 2005 world championship at the Appeal Court hearing in Paris.

The FIA also recommended that the team be fined a minimum of one million euros in the evidence dossier it submitted to the Court.

“The FIA asks the Court to exclude the Lucky Strike BAR Honda team from the 2005 Formula One World Championship and to fine the team at least one million Euros,” said an FIA spokesman.

The governing body is appealing the verdict of race stewards at the San Marino Grand Prix to uphold Jenson Button’s third place finish despite the fact that Briton’s car was found to be 5 kg below the 600 kg minimum weight limit.

Yeesh :scared:
 
GilesGuthrie
The idea being this:

600KG car: weighs 540KG plus 60KG of fuel in "secret tank".

Car starts at 660KG, with 60KG "official" fuel in it. Runs through race. Broom broom. Car consumes 120KG fuel. Is now running underweight. Fuel at 1st stop fills only "secret tank". Car weighs 600KG fuelled. Runs through that fuel again, makes late stop, takes on 120KG fuel. Uses final 60KG fuel, ends race @ 600 KG. Scrutineers manage (how???) to scavenge ALL fuel out of it. Oops...

Numbers are made up, but it's that mid-race underweight phase that's the problem.

Thanks Giles... I was trying to figure it out... that makes sense...

...but BAR maintain that the second tank (which is perfectly legal, as long as the FIA knew about it, which they did...) is never empty during the race (it must contain atleast 6 litres of fuel for the car to function apparently), and hence the car never runs underweight... the car was only underweight when completely emptied of fuel...

I don't think they will get banned... atleast I hope they don't...
 
Touring Mars
is never empty during the race (it must contain atleast 6 litres of fuel for the car to function apparently), and hence the car never runs underweight... the car was only underweight when completely emptied of fuel...

I don't think they will get banned... atleast I hope they don't...


Yeah but doesnt the rules state that fuel cant be used as ballast?

I hope they dont get banned aswell.
 
VIPERGTSR01
Yeah but doesnt the rules state that fuel cant be used as ballast?.

I don't know... but if that is the case then BAR are in trouble, coz it looks like that's exactly what they're doing...

Using fuel as ballast leaves open the possibility of abuse... why would they have 6 litres of fuel on board that they have no intention of using?? Giles' example makes more sense... that they do use it, but always ensure that they have the ballast back in before the end...
 
F1 rules always stike me as being complicated yet open to interpretation...though that might be me being dumb!
Anyway, a ban is unlikely I think. Rather it may be an attempt yo get BAR to admit defeat and take the race disqualification and any other lower punishment.
Saying that, can FIA prove that BAR consciously tried to cheat. If they did isn't that reason to throw them out the championship?
 
Saying that, can FIA prove that BAR consciously tried to cheat. If they did isn't that reason to throw them out the championship?
They built an extra fuel tank in...
That didn't just appear.

They won't be banned, just shamed and made a mockery of.
 
They built a tank within the tank that the FIA clearly knew about and didn't object to until they realized that the extra tank was holding fuel for ballast.

As stated by BAR, the Honda engine cannot run without the fuel in this extra tank, therefore this tank must ALWAYS be full at all times during the race, meking the BAR007 always above the weight.

The question is really wether or not that fuel that cannot be used can be ballast.

(And they use fuel instead of ballast because I believe is is very light weight fuel, much lighter then water).
 
For the purposes of ballast I would think you would want the most dense material you could use. Fuel would strike me as a pretty bad ballast.

Blake
 
The359
(And they use fuel instead of ballast because I believe is is very light weight fuel, much lighter then water).

Blake
For the purposes of ballast I would think you would want the most dense material you could use. Fuel would strike me as a pretty bad ballast.

Blake

More fuel = more laps
 
Max_DC
More fuel = more laps


Yes but like said previously, that extra tank must stay full of fuel for the engine to run, so that keeps the weight above 600kg's unless that fuel is emptied.
 
You've got to remember it's Ecclestone that WANTS them banned, as he put it, if all they are going to do is fine them and strip them of there points the FIA may as well get the teams to give them a check and say cash it if we are caught cheating.

I also hope they don't get banned, though i can see ecclestones point.
 
Well, if Honda has to leave I won't watch anymore... so will many fans of BAR... that is exactly what F1 need now.... :crazy: 👍
 
On the official F1 site, it does say two race ban, but also this :

"On top of the two-race exclusion, BAR were given a further, suspended six-month ban, starting after the Monaco race."

Can someone clarify that for me?
 

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