Best Car 2008 Series : The R8 Takes It!

[homeforsummer]

You can't state the Holden is ugly like it's fact, because IMO it's one of the best looking cars on the market today, and I find the GT-R ugly, the Audi R8 boring, and the Fiat 500 lame. I don't state it like it's fact though, so you can't do the same.

I can state pretty much whatever I like as long as it isn't against the AUP... I also don't have to qualify that any statement I make is "in my opinion", as it should be assumed it's my opinion unless I've stated otherwise.

Far be it from me to suggest you give up defending the car and the marque you love, you probably should look at what people are actually saying in their posts and carefully consider whether to reply or not. I didn't intend to summon you with my comment about finding the car ugly but it was rather predictable that you'd have a retort. I think it's an ugly car. Big deal.

 

[Speedster502]

*Throws Grenade*

So basically you don't care much for cars? Because I can't think of any instance where I have made that kind of mistake.

Hey? How did you jump to that conclusion?

The car you posted is sold in the UK as the Vauxhall VXR8. I'm not sure why this means you've made a mistake and Speedster doesn't care much for cars.

Sorry, I may be reading this wrong. But are you saying that I don't care much about cars, or that your not sure how what he has said means that I don't care much for cars? I'm slightly confused.

I said Speedster made a mistake because he said he never knew it was actually a Holden, thinking it was all Vauxhall.

No, you've got the wrong end of the stick. When I heard that Vauxhall was releasing the VXR8, I pretty much knew there would be a Australian counterpartner. However, I never researched who made the counterpart. I didn't like the VXR8, I thought it was fat, it was ugly, and most importantly it replaced one of Vauxhalls only good cars, the Monaro.

Now you must understand that unlike Holden in Australia, Vauxhall in the UK is often viewed as being dull and boring, therfore when the Monaro originally came out people believed it should have been bought over with Holden not Vauxhall. As people immediately thought it was another boring Vauxhall made by Vauxhall not another manufacture. That's the kind of thing Vauxhalls reputation could do to a car, people only found out that the Monaro was actually Australian when TopGear and other car magazines tested it!

Vauxhalls appearance as a brand is changing now, for the better. However, it's too late for the VXR8/Commodore/G8 in my own opinion. Vauxhall ruined it's reputation in the UK just by being a Vauxhall. No-one seems intrested to find out how it drives etc. Most people will just come to the conclusion it's a Vauxhall, therefore it's rubbish. That may not be the case. But I'm not going to go round school saying that my new favourite car is a Vauxhall. They'd call me crazy.

Anyway, this is mostly my own opinion so feel free to disregard it if you really do love the car then no-one is going to persuade to vote against the car that you love.

 

[YSSMAN]

Everyone know? So you are tell me 6 billion people on planet earth pine for a Pontiac G8/Holden Commodore? I doubt that. People in Michigan, where if you don't own an American car people think you should be drawn and quartered, aren't even buying them. The local Pontiac dealership has at least 20 on the lot. They are becoming slightly more common but then again GM gave them to people to drive around.

That's interesting, I'd have figured they would have "taken off" by now. We aren't seeing many around here on the West Side, but when the dealer gets them in, they go out fairly quick. My last drive by (on Saturday), there were only two on the lot, they've moved through at least 10-15 by now.

The things I've noticed:

- The best-sellers are white (weird?)

- They're mostly V6 models too...

====

The interesting thing about this contest is that its going to paint a picture of what is popular, what people deem to be "important" when it comes to deciding what a "good car" is, and of course there are going to be some fanboy duels now and then. The internets allow for it, and at this point, I just expect it. All of that being said however, I would hope that we try to keep things fair, moderate, and at the very least, "nice."

The R8/CCX-R thread likely won't be. I have a feeling the GT-R thread won't either. Same with the Corvette. Polarizing cars are part of the fun, but when they're good, they're good... There isn't any way around it.

 

[McLaren]

Everyone know? So you are tell me 6 billion people on planet earth pine for a Pontiac G8/Holden Commodore? I doubt that. People in Michigan, where if you don't own an American car people think you should be drawn and quartered, aren't even buying them. The local Pontiac dealership has at least 20 on the lot. They are becoming slightly more common but then again GM gave them to people to drive around.

I can sort of back that up for Joey as well. We have a GM dealer in between EWing Mercedes & Subaru of Plano. A few months back, I had gone in to look at the G8, and only found 3 on their lots. Apparently, the dealer does not order anymore except to be used as demos. They reported that the G8 just doesn't sell on their lots and that they only order them when a customer buys one.

But then again, being next to one of the largest Merc. dealers in the world probably doesn't help.

 

[Duke]

Your opinion went down the drain because everyone you know would know what a 500 is because your father owned one, kind of a dead giveaway. Let's ask people who don't know someone who owned one, a car with heritage needs to have that affect, of people knowing what it is without ever even seeing one sometimes.

I've known what a Fiat 500 is for 30 years, I live in the States, and I've never seen one in real life.

You know, one of these days, you're just going to have to man up and take the ribbing you get. If you can't stand it, consider a change of username or not posting about Holdens for a while.

 

[Tornado]

Did I also mention that until GT4 nobody knew or cared what a 500 is, and if it weren't for the new one, millions still wouldn't.

You got this backward. If it weren't for the original 500, people would just write off the Nuova 500 as an unpractical variation of the Panda.
They sold millions and millions of them in Italy alone, and the car was immensely popular in Europe for the same reason the Mini was. They also had the same appeal as the Mini did in America despite being even more unsuited to our roads.

 

[YSSMAN]

@Reventon

They haven't turned your Pontiac dealer into a Buick-Pontiac-GMC lot yet? Hmmm... I'm under the impression that the car is selling well enough to keep GM happy (they didn't import very many), but of course, they're being hit over the head with fuel prices that have likely slowed the progress significantly.

If they eventually add an "XFE" version of the G8 (higher gearing, low-resistance tires, weight saving choices), they could sell a few more. Maybe. Part of the problem, I fear, is that they really aren't advertising for it much, and to that end, I haven't seen it in the magazines all that often.

Its a very good car, don't get me wrong... But it couldn't have come at a worse time. GM just has to fiddle with the formula a little more.

 

[McLaren]

@Reventon

They haven't turned your Pontiac dealer into a Buick-Pontiac-GMC lot yet? Hmmm... I'm under the impression that the car is selling well enough to keep GM happy (they didn't import very many), but of course, they're being hit over the head with fuel prices that have likely slowed the progress significantly.

They have. I couldn't remember the other 2 manufacturers off the top of my head, but I knew it carried more than Pontiac. Doesn't carry many GMC trucks though.
[/QUOTE]

 

[Famine]

Sorry, I may be reading this wrong. But are you saying that I don't care much about cars, or that your not sure how what he has said means that I don't care much for cars? I'm slightly confused.

The second one. If you didn't care about cars, the chances of you signing up to a website for a computer game based on cars would be somewhat slim

 

[Speedster502]

The second one. If you didn't care about cars, the chances of you signing up to a website for a computer game based on cars would be somewhat slim

Good. Thats the one I wanted to hear

 

[eiriksmil]

People call me Holdenboy and fanboy, you think I want to be called those in an insulting manner? People do it anyway, and they never get in trouble.

You're pretty much asking for it with a username containing Holden..

 

[Cap'n Jack]

The second one. If you didn't care about cars, the chances of you signing up to a website for a computer game based on cars would be somewhat slim

Unless you're somebody's mum.

 

[Joey D]

That's interesting, I'd have figured they would have "taken off" by now. We aren't seeing many around here on the West Side, but when the dealer gets them in, they go out fairly quick. My last drive by (on Saturday), there were only two on the lot, they've moved through at least 10-15 by now.

The things I've noticed:

- The best-sellers are white (weird?)

- They're mostly V6 models too...

I just don't think people want them since they can have the cheaper Dodge Charger which is more or less the same type of vehicle. Pontiac came to the game a year or two to late to really be competitive. The G8 is still really cheap under $30,000 though.

I don't see what the appeal is of the Charger though, it's uglier than the G8 and uses the same cheap plastic in the interior. The only thing I can think of is that it starts several thousand dollars less for the base model.

Most of the G8's I see are black and in GT trim, followed closely by a toss up between the red and that awful orange colour, both GT's as well. I've seen a couple white ones and a blue one that I though looked decent.

I don't think you'll see the G8 make it in this market unless GM can do something more with it. Really the biggest compliant I heard is that it feels rough on our crappy roads, which is the same compliant I remember hearing about the GTO. GM needs to remember their buyer's age is probably mid to late 30's with the G8, if not older.

 

[Jim Prower]

You probably also see more Chargers because there are examples from the past several years around. I personally haven't seen that many (if any) G8s around, and they do tend to blend in with the scenery...especially in the duller "Luxury" colors. Hope the big-bore GXP model can cause a stir, though.

That being said, I think what Pontiac muscle guys want isn't a 4-door sedan, It's an F-body. They want the Firebird they're not getting, as big brother Chevrolet gets all the attention with their pretty new Camaro. I wonder how many Pontiac guys go around, seeing '10 Camaro adverts, and think "I wish I could sell THAT..."

 

[Joey D]

I really don't know what GM doesn't just put some different body panels on the Camaro and try to sell a Firebird. You are absolutely right that's what Pontiac guys want. Maybe GM is just going to see how the Camaro does first before attempting it.

 

[YSSMAN]

The price difference between a G8 V6 and a Charger SXT is only about $400, the HEMI as I recall costs a helluva lot more than the V8-powered G8. I don't think its price that are driving people away by any means, its more or less what they're giving away that would determine what people would want to buy. The G8 is going to appeal to a very specific crowd of people, those who are going to want a subtle, but high-style, sedan that offers a European style of performance and comfort... The Charger is what it is, a cheap RWD sedan that was built to replace the Intrepid. It sells mostly on looks (I think), and they've done a damn-good job so far.

As far as the Firebird goes... Bad idea. When GM is already capping most of their RWD development plans, there isn't a chance in hell for it happening now. The RWD STS/DTS program has been placed on an infinite hold, the RWD Buick is presumed dead along with the RWD Impala, and no one knows what'll happen to Pontiac now that the origional plan for an all-RWD brand is likely to disappear as well.

The good news? The Alpha cars are still coming. The bad news? Not until 2011 at the earliest.

...But, we're drifting off topic a bit...

 

[eiriksmil]

Yeah, let's get this back on topic.

Clarkson, if the GT-R wins, I'm going to laugh at you, right up in your face

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

When I'm right I'm right. Today I asked ~20 Australians where I work (all are car enthusiasts, I work in a car dealer, and I know most of them own a sports car or classic car of their own), and of those 20, one only knew the new Fiat 500, having had no idea there even was an old model, and one thought about it, and said "Aww, that's that little baby car with....*went on to desribe it". So out of 20 Australian car enthusiasts, only one of them knew what the original Fiat 500 is, proving what I said that the 500 is not very well known in Australia.

I've known what a Fiat 500 is for 30 years, I live in the States, and I've never seen one in real life.

You know, one of these days, you're just going to have to man up and take the ribbing you get. If you can't stand it, consider a change of username or not posting about Holdens for a while.

Ribbing for what?! Post the time I said that I deserve a ribbing please, go on.

Of course some people

You're pretty much asking for it with a username containing Holden..

Judge a book by its cover eh? True display of low intelligence, but then I don't see you insulting other people with car names in their username, and we've had this discussion before. Clearly you only have a vendetta for me, yet the mods are just as vicious, so what ever, keep the crap coming guys!

 

[Joey D]

The price difference between a G8 V6 and a Charger SXT is only about $400, the HEMI as I recall costs a helluva lot more than the V8-powered G8.

Google fails then, but ya now that I look at better webpages I see what you are talking about.

When I'm right I'm right. Today I asked ~20 Australians where I work (all are car enthusiasts, I work in a car dealer, and I know most of them own a sports car or classic car of their own), and of those 20, one only knew the new Fiat 500, having had no idea there even was an old model, and one thought about it, and said "Aww, that's that little baby car with....*went on to desribe it". So out of 20 Australian car enthusiasts, only one of them knew what the original Fiat 500 is, proving what I said that the 500 is not very well known in Australia.

Asking 20 out of 20,000,000 doesn't confirm anything though. Unless you can ask a larger, more random, sampling of Australians your test doesn't work.

I don't understand what Australia alone has anything to do with the world car market? Just because something is popular or unpopular there doesn't mean it's really going to affect the rest of the world much. Same goes for really any country as a stand alone. Just because 19 Australians didn't know what the Fiat 500 was doesn't mean millions of other people world wide don't. I bet there are Aussies that know too, and it's greater than one.

 

[Famine]

When I'm right I'm right. Today I asked ~20 Australians where I work (all are car enthusiasts, I work in a car dealer, and I know most of them own a sports car or classic car of their own), and of those 20, one only knew the new Fiat 500, having had no idea there even was an old model, and one thought about it, and said "Aww, that's that little baby car with....*went on to desribe it". So out of 20 Australian car enthusiasts, only one of them knew what the original Fiat 500 is, proving what I said that the 500 is not very well known in Australia.

just because you know something on your continent, doesn't mean every other continent knows it too.

Change the record, nd.

Holden might be big in Australia, but they're nothing to the rest of the world. Your original statement was that Holden have "one of the largest fan bases in the world". This is patently untrue - Holden is only sold as a marque in Australia and there are fewer adults in Australia than Hillary Clinton supporters in the Democrat Party in the USA. And she still lost (in an election to nominate a candidate!).

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Google fails then, but ya now that I look at better webpages I see what you are talking about.



Asking 20 out of 20,000,000 doesn't confirm anything though. Unless you can ask a larger, more random, sampling of Australians your test doesn't work.

I don't understand what Australia alone has anything to do with the world car market? Just because something is popular or unpopular there doesn't mean it's really going to affect the rest of the world much. Same goes for really any country as a stand alone. Just because 19 Australians didn't know what the Fiat 500 was doesn't mean millions of other people world wide don't. I bet there are Aussies that know too, and it's greater than one.

It was essentially to prove to VIPERGTSR01 that not many Aussies know what the 500 is, you have to read the whole thread before making posts like that.

Change the record, nd.

Holden might be big in Australia, but they're nothing to the rest of the world. Your original statement was that Holden have "one of the largest fan bases in the world". This is patently untrue - Holden is only sold as a marque in Australia and there are fewer adults in Australia than Hillary Clinton supporters in the Democrat Party in the USA. And she still lost (in an election to nominate a candidate!).

Your point being? Yes, they're big in Australia, they're iconic in Australia, sometimes I forget how small our population is (we are one of the largest countries in the world in terms of land mass after all), when you're surrounded by people every day that like Holdens and every 5th car you see on the road is a Holden, you tend to get the impression that the fanbase is huge. Seeing the thousand upon thousands of Holden fans at race tracks leaves an impression as well. Then also consider, just because your population count is far higher, does that necessarily mean all those people even have a passing interest in cars? I'd like to think (and hopefully the Australians here will back me up on this one) that a lot of Australians are interested in cars, including the women. If Jeremy Clarkson's antics are much to go by, a lot of Europeans are anti-car, pro environment?
OK OK, so even then we still don't have enough people to satisfy the requirements, but surely you can understand what I'm saying?

 

[Jay]

It was essentially to prove to VIPERGTSR01 that not many Aussies know what the 500 is, you have to read the whole thread before making posts like that.

Prove? Prove what? bunch of people you allegedly asked didn't know what a Fiat 500 was? Who cares, proves nothing to me and what do you care anyway, my opinion (as you said) "went down the drain".


All I was pointing out is you said nobody knew or cared what the Fiat 500 is, which you have proven wrong as you said 1 person knew what it was.

Infact, jacoja08 was the first to say something (which I agreed to) and you are trying to prove me wrong..

Seeing the thousand upon thousands of Holden fans at race tracks leaves an impression as well.

Well considering it is only a two make race (only thing worse than that is a one make race) it's a little hard not to have thousands upon thousands of Holden fans. As you say Holden is big here, it is one of our few local cars (which we pay more for) that do somewhat look at the performance market, of course it will play a big role in our auto lifestyle.

Yes I will back you up saying that a lot of Australians are into cars, but that is the same in most developted countries.

 

[Famine]

It was essentially to prove to VIPERGTSR01 that not many Aussies know what the 500 is, you have to read the whole thread before making posts like that.

No-one disputed that - the FIAT 500 was never sold in Australia. But that wasn't your original claim. You said that before GT4 no-one had heard of it.

Of course, people who actually are interested in cars know just what a huge role the FIAT 500 played in the evolution of cheap motoring for the masses. It's as famous as the original Mini, and even people who've never been on the same land mass as one in which the FIAT was sold know what it is.

Your point being? Yes, they're big in Australia, they're iconic in Australia, sometimes I forget how small our population is (we are one of the largest countries in the world in terms of land mass after all), when you're surrounded by people every day that like Holdens and every 5th car you see on the road is a Holden, you tend to get the impression that the fanbase is huge. Seeing the thousand upon thousands of Holden fans at race tracks leaves an impression as well.

The point being that Holden are nothing at all to almost everyone on the planet. You said it yourself when you said:

just because you know something on your continent, doesn't mean every other continent knows it too.

You know how big Holden are on your continent. But the rest of the world - save for pockets of motoring enthusiasts - would struggle to identify their logo.

Then also consider, just because your population count is far higher, does that necessarily mean all those people even have a passing interest in cars? I'd like to think (and hopefully the Australians here will back me up on this one) that a lot of Australians are interested in cars, including the women.

Your question and your answer are in partial conflict with each other. But it's also irrelevant - as I said earlier:

For reference, if everyone in Australia loved Holdens, it'd still be less popular than a car only sold in the US that only one in ten people liked. Like the Corvette.

Do you think everyone in Australia loves Holdens? Do you think just 1 in 10 Americans love the Corvette?

If Jeremy Clarkson's antics are much to go by, a lot of Europeans are anti-car, pro environment?

Yep.

OK OK, so even then we still don't have enough people to satisfy the requirements, but surely you can understand what I'm saying?

Not when you contradict yourself so readily, no. I'll give you an example:

Not to mention [Holden] having one of the largest fan bases in the world

IMO the Holden is the biggest loser here, up against fanboys it may meet an early grave.

Surely if Holden had one of the largest fan bases in the world, as you claim, it'd be more likely to be buoyed by fanboy support, by simple dint of having such a large number of fans?

 

[Joey D]

It was essentially to prove to VIPERGTSR01 that not many Aussies know what the 500 is, you have to read the whole thread before making posts like that.

Pretty sure I was part of the whole conversation on the matter, your point is still invalid though since you only asked 20 people which is not a representative sample of the 20,000,000 that live in Australia.

 

[Leonidae]

I see this thread going to early grave with all this bickering about non-essential things.

 

[eiriksmil]

Clarkson will probably make a new thread for every winner in its respective class anyway..

Judge a book by its cover eh? True display of low intelligence, but then I don't see you insulting other people with car names in their username, and we've had this discussion before. Clearly you only have a vendetta for me, yet the mods are just as vicious, so what ever, keep the crap coming guys!

You're calling me dumb? I'm not the one with a brand in my screen name
All I'm saying is you're doomed to be looked upon as a fanboy and as an ignorant when your s/n contains holden and that's all you talk about.

 

[nd 4 holden spd]

Do you think everyone in Australia loves Holdens? Do you think just 1 in 10 Americans love the Corvette?

I'd guess 1 in 30 Americans like the Corvette.

Edit: @ eiriksmil, are you calling Exigefan domb? Are you calling VIPERGTSR01 domb? Are you calling VTiRoj domb? Are you calling 888 Tuning (a reference to a Ford racing team) domb? Are you calling Rotary Junkie domb?
Are you calling yourself domb for having a picture of a Lancer as an avatar? Maybe I should just assume you're a Lancer fanboy and that'd explain all your posts I've seen and be on my merry way? No, I'm not a bastard like that.

Edit 2: Or is that a WRX?

 

[Jay]

No-one disputed that - the FIAT 500 was never sold in Australia.

Are you sure? I thought they were (my father always describes them as "Bambino")

 

[Leonidae]

Do not throw more fuel to the fire, okay?

 

[Joey D]

Are you sure? I thought they were (my father always describes them as "Bambino")

Per the wikipedia page, yes.

On May 2007 a 1969 Fiat 500 ("Bambino" in Australia) driven by Lang Kidby and his wife Bev started their Fiat 500 World Expedition from Australia. Driving from Vladivostok through Russia they arrived in Garlenda, Italy in time for the car's 50th anniversary celebration. Shipping from Belgium the car set out from New York to travel all the way to Anchorage, Alaska before returning to Australia - 32,000 road kilometers in just 99 days. It is believed to be the smallest car to complete a world circumnavigation.

They must have some following since there is a club:
http://www.fiat500clubsa.com/